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How can Vulcans experience love in a relationship?

ReadyAndWilling

Fleet Captain
How is it possible for the Vulcans to feel 'love' for someone else? Love is an emotion so how can they really appreciate being in a relationship with another person?

Doesn't make any sense to me, or do they view the other person as a high value?

Not really sure where this thread should have been posted.

Thanks
 
How is it possible for the Vulcans to feel 'love' for someone else? Love is an emotion so how can they really appreciate being in a relationship with another person?

Doesn't make any sense to me, or do they view the other person as a high value?

Not really sure where this thread should have been posted.

Thanks

Spock asked his father why he married his mother. His Father said he worked on Earth and among Humans and it was "logical" to marry a Human to aid him of his understanding of the species.

Later when Spocks mother died Surak confessed that he married her because he loved her.

We can conclude that although they supposedly suppress emotion and are to be seen to ignore it they do in fact feel it and it plays a part in their lives especially when it comes to becoming a couple/married.
They may not say as such, and may not show it as such but they do feel love and marry because of it.
 
It always seemed to me that understanding those emotions was a lot more important than actually displaying them.
 
Much of this is speculative, and very little is canon, but here's the best I can grok it:

Vulcan society is organized around arranged marriages - and in their case, unlike here on Earth, there is a biological component that actually forces the situation, or at least would have to be fought strongly against to avoid. Which wouldn't be very logical.

At the age of 7, Vulcan children go through their first Pon Farr. They aren't physically mature, so the primary sexual component is absent, but the psychological component is there, and Vulcan parents arrange a betrothal at that point that creates a psychic link between their two children. There may be no contact between the children after that point until their next Pon Farr - although I suspect that in most cases, there is at least some acquaintance.

At the age of 14, they enter Pon Farr again, and become "married" (which I suspect is a poor English translation of the Vulcan word for the state) since their bodies are mature enough for sexual activity. A "priestess" and several others are on hand during this and every subsequent Pon Farr for reasons that are not entirely clear - but I would think are something aside from, "hey, free porn!" ;) Providing instruction or even applying technology, or making certain participants are unharmed, or providing ... additional genetic material, shall we say ... to attempt to help ensure a pregnancy when that is desired. That isn't generally our way, but hey, these are aliens.

What's Love Got To Do With It?

In many arranged marriages on Earth, the couples do grow to have an affection - love - for one another. I would assume this is the same for Vulcan pairings. Also, in the event of premature death of one half of a pairing, the biological drive will still be there every 7 years, and it is possible that love, or at least affection, plays some role in the choices made for these older betrothals. And then there are Vulcans that choose to mate with aliens. They are stone freaks, and their logic may be a bit questionable as regards why they would make such a choice. :devil:

I suspect that Sarek chose Amanda because of the ping-pong ball trick.
 
Oh no, do people always have to come up with that question? Vulcans do have emotions, and in fact it's been stated several times (most notably by Sarek in TNG episode "Sarek" - which is also one of the episodes in which you get to see what a Vulcan is like when they are stripped of their emotional control - and in STXI), that their emotions are much stronger and more intense than human emotions. This drove them to violence in the the distant past, and after they almost destroyed themselves through war and aggression, they accepted Surak's philosophy based on logic, stoicism and suppression of emotion, and built their society and culture on that basis. Some Vulcans refused this and left Vulcan to form a society of their own - and became what we know as Romulans.
 
vulcans have emotions, but as they are exponentially strong, they are supressed.

however, in the instance of "married" vulcans, they are telepathically linked, thus the marriage vows:

parted and never parted.
never and always touching and touched.

they can show emotions by a touch or a glance. also-being touch telepaths- a hand rested on an arm or shoulder between consorts is as powerful as a passionate kiss (:devil:)


you need to study your vulcan history. :vulcan:
 
Ok, I worded it wrong. I meant to say suppressed emotions.

I think it has to do with having a high value on something or in this case, someone.
 
Good grief! Triumphant, Vulcans don't undergo "pon farr" at age 7!! Nor to the best of my knowledge at 14 either. Bonding at age 7, yes, some fo them. But "pon farr" is very specifically the hormone storm that culminating in compulsive mating drive that if not comsummated will bring death. Vulcans may be sexy, but they're not pervy when it comes to children.

Spock underwent his first pon farr in his mid thirties. The stuff on the Genesis planet was because everything being greatly speeded up/out of sync.
 
Pon farr is a hodge-podge concept and as such tends to defy reasonable explanation. However, as sexuality is vitally important to any society with gender divisions, "Vulcan biology" as Spock shyly put it is vitally important to developing a framework for how the Vulcan societies operate.

Beware, longish post, partly in reply to Triumphant, and parly my own diatribe. For the biologically-minded, you might find it interesting, or find some things to argue with. There is also a great penis joke buried near the bottom.

At the age of 14, they enter Pon Farr again, and become "married" (which I suspect is a poor English translation of the Vulcan word for the state) since their bodies are mature enough for sexual activity. A "priestess" and several others are on hand during this and every subsequent Pon Farr for reasons that are not entirely clear - but I would think are something aside from, "hey, free porn!" ;) Providing instruction or even applying technology, or making certain participants are unharmed, or providing ... additional genetic material, shall we say ... to attempt to help ensure a pregnancy when that is desired. That isn't generally our way, but hey, these are aliens.

Hm, have to disagree with you there. This sort of thing is evolutionarily unlikely. Vulcans are already portrayed as ultrapossessive, homicidal beyond even Terran mammal standards, as far as intragender sexual conflict goes, and generally any individual that permitted that kind of prima nocta situation would be selected against in favor of more aggressive, more possessive bridegrooms. This kind of cuckolding works on Earth--and even then usually poorly--when the machinery of the state permits authorities to abuse the delegated force of the society as a whole to set themselves up as artificial alpha males. And no one except the cuckolder is happy with it, as the female has been deprived of meaningful reproductive choice and any mate she has has been deprived of his ability to pass on his own genes for nine or more months. I doubt, especially under a Surakian social paradigm valuing harmony and eschewing the abuse of authority, this kind of tradition could possibly be perpetuated.

Pregnancies may (or may not) be good for society no matter how they are come to, but outside of exceptional circumstances of reproductive-caste eusociality and haplodiploid sister-relatedness seen in hymendopterans (ants) and some other, limited groups of animals, individuals of any species should ordinarily be programmed to propagate their own genes, not the group's.

What's Love Got To Do With It?

In many arranged marriages on Earth, the couples do grow to have an affection - love - for one another. I would assume this is the same for Vulcan pairings. Also, in the event of premature death of one half of a pairing, the biological drive will still be there every 7 years, and it is possible that love, or at least affection, plays some role in the choices made for these older betrothals. And then there are Vulcans that choose to mate with aliens. They are stone freaks, and their logic may be a bit questionable as regards why they would make such a choice. :devil:

I suspect that Sarek chose Amanda because of the ping-pong ball trick.
:lol: Good ref.

You know, it occurs to me that, by the rules of "Amok Time," Sarek almost definitely had been betrothed a long time before he'd ever met Amanda (maybe a long time before Amanda had ever been born!). I wish I'd thought of this when arguing for the merits of The Final Frontier--so many people think it's some kind of canon violation that Spock has this brother, when, really, by the very necessities of Vulcan life laid out explicitly in the canon, it would almost be more surprising if Spock didn't have a fully Vulcan brother out there. And even in the case of futuristic birth control, it would be truly baffling if Sarek, from a politically important family and hence presumably a hot property for the marriage brokers, would not have had a previous wife.

If we accept the presumption that Vulcans are not polygamous, or at least that Sarek is not legally married to two wives, we can even deduce something further from these facts: namely, that Vulcans will not just marry for love, but will divorce when there is not love in a relationship.

However, should we presume that Vulcans are not polygamous? It seems likely that in the olden days they were, as left to their own devices, males seem to fatally compete with each other often enough to drive down the sex ratio. (However, if they are like humans in this regard, a ~10% fatality rate in males would actually even the at-birth ratio, ~105:100.)

The social adaptations of Vulcans--namely arranged marriage--seem to indicate that even pre-Surak Vulcand realized that such intragroup conflict had to be contained, so established the concept of arranged marriages to nicely pair off every child. Societies that did this would be able to keep their men from killing each other and have a selective advantage over societies which did not. Arranged marriage or at least the concept of marriage as ownership were likely to have been very early social inventions.

They were on Earth, and performed the very same social function--keeping tribes from shearing apart due to sexual conflict. I suspect that on the biological level, the expression of genes for homosexuality may also fill this function, but let's not derail this thread with that. Michel Houellebecq, French novelist, is famous for (often obscenely) theorizing that modern sexual mores are permitting the reemergence (if he did ever truly submerge) of the dominant alpha male in human coupling, which along with other factors is causing a great deal of misery. The notion is that any society which permits the creation of a free sexual market will produce "rich" and "poor," and generate a type of class conflict that is dependent not on material wealth but sexual success.

There is a very strong possibility, however, that females are not the limited sex amongst Vulcans. Vulcan males undergo pon farr every seven years. This would presumably correspond--Tuvok's kids notwithstanding--to a fertility cycle. If Vulcan females are capable of pregnancy at any given time, then even with the development period placental females are saddled with, they would strangely still be capable of more sexual fitness than the men. This would throw a wrench into entire notion of mapping human socio-sexual dynamics onto Vulcans, and bring into frame a strong evolutionary incentive for polyandry. There is some nebulous fanon that posits a matriarchal Vulcan society, but evidence that Vulcan females seek other mates would actually provide firm support for that deduction. Maybe one of Tuvok's kids just ain't his.

Edit: Incidentally, although "sex is fun" is as good an reason as any, this would provide a deeper explanation as to why in "The Enterprise Incident," Spock and the Romulan commander both seemed sexually responsive, even though neither were in pon farr. For the Romulan commander's part, sexual responsiveness suggests large fertility windows, possibly even permanent ones (there is nothing that says Vulcan females have to have an ovarian cycle, and it could easily be the other way around, an egg or eggs flushed into a contained organ full of sperm).

As for Spock, it's possible that Vulcan males could "fake" active gametic material whenever they were not fertile, in order to fool their mates when they have already used their brief window to pursue fitter females. This would be analogous to cryptic female choice in some Terran animals, e.g., many birds as well as hyenas, who are able to dump unwanted partners' sperm, preventing them from being tied up with some loser's kid.

Can this polyandry be squared with the koon-ut-kal-i-fee? It could. Vulcan males would still have a vested interest in preempting their females from wasting resources on genes not their own, as well as forestalling the possibility of their females from dying in childbirth (an acceptable risk if it means life for their own children, but not for others' offspring). So fighting for proprietorship of the womb would be natural. It would be equally natural for females to permit cuckoldry (which would be blindingly obvious cuckoldry if the seven year cycle is one for fertility), so it would be a constant struggle between male and female for control of the baby parts.

Koon-ut-kal-i-fee is an interesting hybridization of classic male-versus-male and female choice paradigms of sexual conflict. It may serve as a social convention that permits females to choose the "best but only," as determined by the outcome of the fight, which would be a compromise between the drive for polyandry in the female, providing her with the fittest specimen available for breeding, and the male, who would have eliminated at least one competitor for the womb. It could have persisted in the post-Surak era, as even Vulcan Jesus could not easily find a workaround for the selfish gene.

Obviously, no system of monogamy is foolproof, because it is fundamentally artificial, just as any restraint on a free market, whether for good or ill, is artificial, and polyandry could be common and tolerated in the same vein that human male "indiscretions" have traditionally been better-tolerated than human female "promiscuity". I.e., Tuvok just keeps believing she'll change. :(

However, the psychic bonding of monogamous partners, perhaps only possible after Surakian discipline, could make polyandry much harder to get away with, especially for the trespassing male, who would likely bear the brunt of the inevitably violent response, tightening a noose on female reproductive choice. Surak was misquoted--he said "my dick."

And I won't even get started on how all this might apply on Romulus.

At any rate, getting back to Sarek again, what's the deal with his pon farr? He's schtupping a red-blooded round-ear, but it's biologically retarded to say that pon farr could be satisfactorily resolved through that. (I'm looking at you, Voyager.) If this were the case, no sehlat on Vulcan would be safe. The answer must be that Sarek is polygamous, but not legally so. I am convinced he is getting some on the side. Nu-Uhura, watch out. Sylar's going to be a bounder come every seven years.
 
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Good grief! Triumphant, Vulcans don't undergo "pon farr" at age 7!! Nor to the best of my knowledge at 14 either.
Well, you're probably correct that they don't undergo anything as thorough-going as what we say in Amok Time at age 7, but it is possible that the biological cycle has started in some small way, and even if it hasn't, that would seem like a logical interval at which to perform betrothal.

OTOH, I don't believe you are correct about age 14. The only way I could see them not undergoing Pon Farr is if they haven't completed enough of puberty - which seems unlikely, based on the times that we have seen that they seem to age toward adulthood at the same rate as Humans.
Vulcans may be sexy, but they're not pervy when it comes to children.
I'm not saying anything about "sexy". And I'm not being perverted (right now ;)).

In some human cultures, betrothals are practiced at very early ages. In some human cultures, the sex education provided to children may range from it never having even been discussed to them being provided with "an experienced first time". And that's just humanity. Vulcans are aliens.
Spock underwent his first pon farr in his mid thirties.
I don't recall them saying that he and T'Pring had never had sex before, or gone through Pon Farr. You can have your conclusion, but it isn't canon, and I don't feel that it is .. pardon the expression .. logical. :vulcan:
Hm, have to disagree with you there. This sort of thing is evolutionarily unlikely. <snip> I doubt, especially under a Surakian social paradigm valuing harmony and eschewing the abuse of authority, this kind of tradition could possibly be perpetuated.
Well, I could still see the possibility that, when all participants in the reproductive process are approaching it from a relatively unemotional, logical perspective, the others that are present might be the others that just as easily could have ended up betrothed to the female based on genetic factors - the groom was simply the "lottery winner" out of those worthys. In which case, logically, it wouldn't really matter which of them impregnated her.

However, putting that aside, do you agree with the rest of my analysis? And if not, can you make another suggestion as to why the rest of those people were there when Spock arrived for his Pon Farr? They weren't expecting a fight yet, so what were they expecting that required their presence? ;)
:lol: Good ref.
Thanks. I was hoping someone would catch that. :D
 
At any rate, getting back to Sarek again, what's the deal with his pon farr? He's schtupping a red-blooded round-ear, but it's biologically retarded to say that pon farr could be satisfactorily resolved through that. (I'm looking at you, Voyager.) If this were the case, no sehlat on Vulcan would be safe. The answer must be that Sarek is polygamous, but not legally so. I am convinced he is getting some on the side. Nu-Uhura, watch out. Sylar's going to be a bounder come every seven years.
What the hell are you talking about?! :confused: :wtf: "Biologically retarded"? WTF?! It would be biologically retarded to suggest that there is any difference between having sex with a human or with a Vulcan. Sex is sex, and they obviously have the same reproductive organs. Or else they wouldn't be able to have babies. So, again, what on Vulcan are you talking about? :vulcan:
 
At any rate, getting back to Sarek again, what's the deal with his pon farr? He's schtupping a red-blooded round-ear, but it's biologically retarded to say that pon farr could be satisfactorily resolved through that. (I'm looking at you, Voyager.) If this were the case, no sehlat on Vulcan would be safe. The answer must be that Sarek is polygamous, but not legally so. I am convinced he is getting some on the side. Nu-Uhura, watch out. Sylar's going to be a bounder come every seven years.
What the hell are you talking about?! :confused: :wtf: "Biologically retarded"? WTF?! It would be biologically retarded to suggest that there is any difference between having sex with a human or with a Vulcan. Sex is sex, and they obviously have the same reproductive organs. Or else they wouldn't be able to have babies. So, again, what on Vulcan are you talking about? :vulcan:
At the very least, Spock would have to be the universe's most inconsiderate dick in "Amok Time" to stop the Enterprise during an important (if rote and uninteresting) diplomatic mission just to get laid, when masturbation (as Voyager stupidly announces) or a Nurse Chapel/Uhura combo pack would serve the immediate biological needs completely. Are we prepared to accept Spock as a man who would abandon duty and logic because he simply preferred to have sex with T'Pring? That is a terrible notion, and one completely inconsistent with Spock's character--not to mention Kirk's acceptance of his rationale for what amounted to mutiny.

Beyond that, sexual preference for members of one's own species is pretty strongly selected for, because, Trek's terrible science aside, having sex with members of another species almost never produces viable offspring. This is why creatures as simple as bugs have evolved the cognitive power for elaborate pattern-recognition, which permit them to distinguish the olfactorily and visually similar signals of other species from their own brand of kinky insect love musk.

It is highly suspicious that Vulcan evolution created an elaborate behavioral pattern that forced males into sexual activity, fatal combat, or outright death, and then let them avoid the entire ordeal by wacking it into a sock. But wacking it into a sock is exactly as biologically productive as any biologically plausible sex between a Vulcan and Amanda Grayson, B'Elanna walking-talking junk-science Torres, or a collection of photons and force fields programmed with your wife's night moves.
 
At any rate, getting back to Sarek again, what's the deal with his pon farr? He's schtupping a red-blooded round-ear, but it's biologically retarded to say that pon farr could be satisfactorily resolved through that. (I'm looking at you, Voyager.) If this were the case, no sehlat on Vulcan would be safe. The answer must be that Sarek is polygamous, but not legally so. I am convinced he is getting some on the side. Nu-Uhura, watch out. Sylar's going to be a bounder come every seven years.
What the hell are you talking about?! :confused: :wtf: "Biologically retarded"? WTF?! It would be biologically retarded to suggest that there is any difference between having sex with a human or with a Vulcan. Sex is sex, and they obviously have the same reproductive organs. Or else they wouldn't be able to have babies. So, again, what on Vulcan are you talking about? :vulcan:
At the very least, Spock would have to be the universe's most inconsiderate dick in "Amok Time" to stop the Enterprise during an important (if rote and uninteresting) diplomatic mission just to get laid, when masturbation (as Voyager stupidly announces) or a Nurse Chapel/Uhura combo pack would serve the immediate biological needs completely. Are we prepared to accept Spock as a man who would abandon duty and logic because he simply preferred to have sex with T'Pring? That is a terrible notion, and one completely inconsistent with Spock's character--not to mention Kirk's acceptance of his rationale for what amounted to mutiny.
Aside from the fact that it makes no sense at all, biologically, that only sex with T'Pring would relieve him; Spock definitely did tconsider resolving it all in a simpler way by having sex with Chapel. What else do you think he was trying to tell her here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHQoGEIucc

But then he changed his mind when she said "I do not understand" (good grief, woman! :rolleyes: ) and that they were headed for Vulcan. Logic has nothing to do with Pon Farr, and duty is exactly why he changed his mind and did not go through with it. Personally, I think Spock would have prefered to have sex with Chapel or Uhura if that was all there was to it, but he 'needed' to do it with T'Pring and only T'Pring because she is his 'bethroted'. In his mind, he is a "married" man, and it would not have been right to have a fling with a human woman. Spock was always trying to be a good Vulcan, and Vulcan traditions meant much to him. That is totally in character for him.

Beyond that, sexual preference for members of one's own species is pretty strongly selected for, because, Trek's terrible science aside, having sex with members of another species almost never produces viable offspring.
It definitely does in Star Trek, as you're aware of. If you're going to make sense of it, scientifically (i.e. to treat Trek-Science as real science), you have to recognize them as basically the same species or offshoot of the same species, kind of like a wolf and a dog.
 
Sorry for the two posts in a row, but it's just so... much... easier.

Well, you're probably correct that they don't undergo anything as thorough-going as what we say in Amok Time at age 7, but it is possible that the biological cycle has started in some small way, and even if it hasn't, that would seem like a logical interval at which to perform betrothal.

I do think that young-as-possible bonding seems likely, especially if Surakism prefers to enforce monogamy.

OTOH, I don't believe you are correct about age 14. The only way I could see them not undergoing Pon Farr is if they haven't completed enough of puberty - which seems unlikely, based on the times that we have seen that they seem to age toward adulthood at the same rate as Humans.
Don't agree here. As you say, they're aliens--physical maturity and sexual maturity can come at different times. Although I suspect there is selective pressure for them to be the same--it seems a waste of energy and resources for a fully-able adult to not pursue reproduction. That helps explain why humans we legally and morally consider children are nevertheless capable of reproduction without being completely physically mature, even to the point that reproduction is hazardous--fitness-speaking, it seems to have been, when life was nasty, brutish, and short, worth the extra risk added to the already substantial hazards of natural childbirth.

In some human cultures, betrothals are practiced at very early ages. In some human cultures, the sex education provided to children may range from it never having even been discussed to them being provided with "an experienced first time". And that's just humanity. Vulcans are aliens.
The grossest social attitude toward sex is this Pacific tribe I read about a long time ago in the New Yorker, that teaches fellatio to pre-adolescents. Probably not anything we'll be seeing in prime-time any time soon, and that is well. Still, your point is taken, societies can do strange things.

I don't recall them saying that he and T'Pring had never had sex before, or gone through Pon Farr. You can have your conclusion, but it isn't canon, and I don't feel that it is .. pardon the expression .. logical. :vulcan:
A palpable possibility. However, Spock's lack of children militates heavily against your following conclusions--if pregnancy is so important, socially, as to permit the invitation of outside help in the process, surely, working together as a team, could have successfully inseminated T'Pring. Indeed, if pon farr is a fertility cycle, the efficiency would have to be rather great, much greater than the rather hit-and-miss human mechanisms.

Well, I could still see the possibility that, when all participants in the reproductive process are approaching it from a relatively unemotional, logical perspective, the others that are present might be the others that just as easily could have ended up betrothed to the female based on genetic factors - the groom was simply the "lottery winner" out of those worthys. In which case, logically, it wouldn't really matter which of them impregnated her.
From a purely social perspective, this makes some sense, although such a social adaptation would, in my view, tend to arise on a world with far greater resources than Vulcan. Vulcan, being borderline-uninhabitable, would present greater pressures than even on Earth for an individualistic reproductive urgency. The fewer the resources, the fewer the children that can be raised to produce their own offspring, drastically increasing the importance of individual fitness over group fitness.

Further, it seems evident that they cannot easily approach their own reproductive process from a logical perspective. If they could, Spock would have fessed up long before it became critical, McCoy, as a xenobiologist, would not have had such an embarassing gap in his knowledge base, and T'Pring would have just sent him an email breaking it off and advising him to seek the nearest Vulcan massage parlor.

However, putting that aside, do you agree with the rest of my analysis? And if not, can you make another suggestion as to why the rest of those people were there when Spock arrived for his Pon Farr? They weren't expecting a fight yet, so what were they expecting that required their presence? ;)
I dunno. Why does Western civilization--indeed, most civilizations--practice public weddings? It's rather wasteful, especially in the decadent Western tradition, but I suppose it provides a public signal to all comers (ha ha) that the gametes of the newlyweds are off-limits. Also, people like a party. Fun is fun.

There is a compromise between group and individual fitness, however, which might permit siblings, fathers, or mothers to assist in reproduction. This is essentially what happens in hymenopterans--due to the haplodiploid sexual scheme of many (all?) ants, for example, sisters from the same parents have a 75% relatedness, as opposed to the 50% relatedness of siblings in humans. This is why eusociality is not strongly selected against even though on an indivudal level it appears not to make sense. However, to be sure there is far more individualistic sexual conflict in hymenopterans than popularly conceived, including male infanticide by females who want to preserve their father's contribution, and the diploid reproduction of males without the need for fertilization undertaken by parasitic females. So, anyway, it's within the realm of feasibility, if barely, that if Sarek had bothered to show up for the wedding, Spock might have let him take his best shot (ha ha).

Thanks. I was hoping someone would catch that. :D
Since we're on the subject, the ping-pong ball trick evidences very high reproductive fitness. Strong pelvic muscles are a must.:devil:
 
Aside from the fact that it makes no sense at all, biologically, that only sex with T'Pring would relieve him;

It doesn't, if climax is the answer. But if climax alone is the answer, the sock works and Spock's a jerk. It seems to me more like for there to be some kind of pheromonal release (or even bioelectric, given Vulcans' propensity for telepathy) that either triggers the end of pon farr--we don't really know how long it lasts, it could be months--or at least snaps the affected male out of the plak tow state.

Spock definitely did tconsider resolving it all in a simpler way by having sex with Chapel. What else do you think he was trying to tell her here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHQoGEIucc
To my eye, it appears that he's considering the fit of a sock.

Edit: apropos of nothing, the music in "Amok Time" is really, really awesome. I cannot recall a single episode of Trek that utilizes its score quite as effectively as this one. :)

But then he changed his mind when she said "I do not understand" (good grief, woman! :rolleyes: ) and that they were headed for Vulcan. Logic has nothing to do with Pon Farr,
Yet there must be logical underpinnings, or such a wild adaptation would not be sustained, not only in Vulcans, but presumably in all Vulcan primate analogues, and perhaps most or all Vulcan mammal analogues.

and duty is exactly why he changed his mind and did not go through with it. Personally, I think Spock would have prefered to have sex with Chapel or Uhura if that was all there was to it, but he 'needed' to do it with T'Pring and only T'Pring because she is his 'bethroted'.
I doubt the sexual morality of humans would apply to creatures that would literally die without getting it on. Take the mitzvah that Jews can't eat pork, for example--virtually all Jewish sects recognize that if necessity dictates a Jew to eat pork, this is a morally acceptable outcome, because the life of a Jew is more important than anything else. This flexibility in morality recognizes that the nature of life is to live, and no law can effectively prohibit life seeking continued existence. The same applies to the common law and its adoption of principles of self-defense--even if we made an ethically defensible decision that the law should not accept a self-defense justification, biology would make it completely impossible to successfully enforce!

Thus, I doubt Vulcan morality attaches any significant approbium to a pon farr-sufferer who, bereft of his mate, takes whatever action necessity dictates. Perhaps Vulcan morality goes even as far as tolerating rape. It would certainly tolerate necessary masturbation.

In his mind, he is a "married" man, and it would not have been right to have a fling with a human woman. Spock was always trying to be a good Vulcan, and Vulcan traditions meant much to him. That is totally in character for him.
Yet if it is sexual release alone that permits Vulcans to snap out of the unfortunate condition, masturbation would work just as well or better than a futile attempt at miscegenatory adultery. Unless there's some trick to Vulcan genitals that prohibits easy masturbation, it seems like a totally viable option. Worst to worst, and much nittier-grittier, Doctor McCoy could probably figure out some way to induce climax, and at the least actual medicine is an avenue worth attempting--surely Vulcans, renowned scientists who developed atom bombs 2000 years ago and warp drives centuries before humans, would have figured out some way to preserve their own lives during pon farr if it were as simple as choking it. If it is not chemical or electric signals from a mate that end the effective "self-destruct countdown" that pon farr is, why did Spock violate his oaths? Why did he not seek other options first?

[/quote]It definitely does in Star Trek, as you're aware of. If you're going to make sense of it, scientifically (i.e. to treat Trek-Science as real science), you have to recognize them as basically the same species or offshoot of the same species, kind of like a wolf and a dog.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, because of the Progenitors--kind of like I'm an offshoot of chordate lancelet. Phenotypical similarities and common distant origins do not correlate strongly with genetic compatibility.
 
I doubt the sexual morality of humans would apply to creatures that would literally die without getting it on. Take the mitzvah that Jews can't eat pork, for example--virtually all Jewish sects recognize that if necessity dictates a Jew to eat pork, this is a morally acceptable outcome, because the life of a Jew is more important than anything else. This flexibility in morality recognizes that the nature of life is to live, and no law can effectively prohibit life seeking continued existence. The same applies to the common law and its adoption of principles of self-defense--even if we made an ethically defensible decision that the law should not accept a self-defense justification, biology would make it completely impossible to successfully enforce!

Thus, I doubt Vulcan morality attaches any significant approbium to a pon farr-sufferer who, bereft of his mate, takes whatever action necessity dictates. Perhaps Vulcan morality goes even as far as tolerating rape. It would certainly tolerate necessary masturbation.
How would you know that?! This is all speculation, and with some very strange conclusions. "Perhaps Vulcan morality goes even as far as tolerating rape"?! :vulcan: Yes, perhaps Vulcans tolerate rape, perhaps they tolerate murder. Only, not likely. :rolleyes: Vulcans are peaceful people, and all their stoicism and adherence to logic and suppression of emotion is aimed at stopping them from becoming violent. We were told by Spock that they also use meditatation in order to stop their violent tendencies during Pon Farr.

Spock, on his part, has shown himself as very strict in his - and presumably Vulcan - morality: "It is not right for a woman to serve a man who is not hers". He has a problems with accepting soup from Chapel since she is not his bethroted... But you want to convince me that this doesn't extend to sex and he'd have absolutely no problem accepting sex from her?

What would be the point of arranged marriages, anyway, if they are only getting in the way of a person in Pon Farr achieving release?

Now I have speculated, too, and my interpretation is that this is exactly the reason why they have arranged marriages and the mental bonding - for a simple reason, so that Vulcans would not mate with about anyone available when they are in Pon Farr. Bonding is a way to ensure some social order to the reproduction. Otherwise, things might get messy, and Vulcans might have children with who-knows-who, including non-Vulcans.

But I don't know if they exactly counted on people like Spock, Vulcans who prefer to live far away from their home planet and far away from any other Vulcans. One thing is certain: Spock's behavior in "Amok Time" was incredibly stupid. Did he really expect T'Pring to sit and wait for him, while he was away from years with no intention of coming back, and might have even never returned if it hadn't been for Pon Farr? Spock is one screwed-up half-Vulcan. :vulcan:
 
DevilEyes said:
How would you know that?! This is all speculation, and with some very strange conclusions. "Perhaps Vulcan morality goes even as far as tolerating rape"?! :vulcan: Yes, perhaps Vulcans tolerate rape, perhaps they tolerate murder. Only, not likely. :rolleyes:

Actually, definitely and explicitly. ;) Homicide is not only completely legal but actively encouraged during the marriage or challenge. When Spock "kills" Kirk, no one arrests him. He has to turn himself in to Starfleet to receive punishment. Presumably, if Stonn had not been so pathetically beta in his maleness--arguably a bit of a plus for a polyandrist, incidentally--he and Spock would have fought.

If this happened, and Spock had caved his skull in like it was Irreversible with the q-tip end of his weapon, there seems there would have been no legal consequences at all--except that he had asserted a legal right to a reproductive monopoly over T'Pring. However, it's important to recognize as well that a legal right is no right at all any further than moral and ultimately physical force can apply.

For what it's worth, humans don't quite equate rape with homicide, and if Vulcan morality permits homicide, it might permit--not condone, but permit--rape. My point is that systems of morality are subject to the same selective processes that all social adaptations are--moral philosophies will generally have to take into account biological factors, or they will not be adopted, and they will not survive. That's the reason Paul rejected the mitzvah of circumcision for gentiles converting to Christianity, and why Jews can eat pork if they'll die if they don't, and I can kill a man that I reasonably believe is trying to kill me.

Vulcans are peaceful people,
Not by nature, though.

and all their stoicism and adherence to logic and suppression of emotion is aimed at stopping them from becoming violent. We were told by Spock that they also use meditatation in order to stop their violent tendencies during Pon Farr.
To be fair, this didn't really seem to work all that well. Spock still goes crazy, still kills his best friend in an obvious set-up. The most puzzling thing is that this somehow snaps him out of it--a mechanism for increasing group survival rates by shutting down reproduction when circumstances are such that intragroup conflict is engendered, or a psychological and physiological quirk peculiar to Spock alone, and worthy of intense study by the licensed perverts of the Vulcan Science Academy?

Spock, on his part, has shown himself as very strict in his - and presumably Vulcan - morality: "It is not right for a woman to serve a man who is not hers". He has a problems with accepting soup from Chapel since she is not his bethroted... But you want to convince me that this doesn't extend to sex and he'd have absolutely no problem accepting sex from her?
Hm, fair point. I could argue, however, that humans often eschew emotional connection in their own "necessity" couplings, and that accepting the little, spousal things like trying to nurse Spock with soup might have seemed even more treasonous to T'Pring than a simple act of desperation. I suppose this sort of sentiment the mechanism behind the behavior of hookers that don't kiss and men that leave before the sun comes up.

The clip, to my eye, shows Spock strongly considering a move--it's the revelation that he's back on his way to Vulcan stops him. Perhaps because he knows any tryst with Chapel is going to be a placebo, anyway.

Alternatively, he might just not find Chapel attractive at all, and reticence in settling for a perceivedly less fit mate is a nearly universal trait arising in a reproductively limited sex, as males of the Vulcan species appear to be.

What would be the point of arranged marriages, anyway, if they are only getting in the way of a person in Pon Farr achieving release?

Now I have speculated, too, and my interpretation is that this is exactly the reason why they have arranged marriages and the mental bonding - for a simple reason, so that Vulcans would not mate with about anyone available when they are in Pon Farr. Bonding is a way to ensure some social order to the reproduction. Otherwise, things might get messy, and Vulcans might have children with who-knows-who, including non-Vulcans.
As you say, I figure it is a method of social control, just as marriage is a method of social control on Earth.

But I don't know if they exactly counted on people like Spock, Vulcans who prefer to live far away from their home planet and far away from any other Vulcans.
Biological evolution could not have accounted for it yet, surely. Given their long history in space, you think they could have developed robust social accomodations for their biological necessities, however. Do Vulcan starships not have toilets, either?

One thing is certain: Spock's behavior in "Amok Time" was incredibly stupid. Did he really expect T'Pring to sit and wait for him, while he was away from years with no intention of coming back, and might have even never returned if it hadn't been for Pon Farr? Spock is one screwed-up half-Vulcan. :vulcan:
Absolutely. Why he made no arrangements well ahead of time is a complete mystery, explicable only by an intense self-delusion on Spock's part that should land him in the counselor's office, at least. However, T'Pring is a real bitch as well, for forcing Spock to fight instead of letting him know in advance that she was leaving him. I mean, did Amanda have to kill Sarek's first wife for the divorce to go through?:p
 
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How would you know that?! This is all speculation, and with some very strange conclusions. "Perhaps Vulcan morality goes even as far as tolerating rape"?! :vulcan: Yes, perhaps Vulcans tolerate rape, perhaps they tolerate murder. Only, not likely. :rolleyes:

Actually, definitely and explicitly. ;) Homicide is not only completely legal but actively encouraged during the marriage or challenge. When Spock "kills" Kirk, no one arrests him. He has to turn himself in to Starfleet to receive punishment. Presumably, if Stonn had not been so pathetically beta in his maleness--arguably a bit of a plus for a polyandrist, incidentally--he and Spock would have fought.

If this happened, and Spock had caved his skull in like it was Irreversible with the q-tip end of his weapon, there seems there would have been no legal consequences at all--except that he had asserted a legal right to a reproductive monopoly over T'Pring. However, it's important to recognize as well that a legal right is no right at all any further than moral and ultimately physical force can apply.
As a part of the Pon Farr ritual. I don't think they would approve of killing or raping random people.

Vulcans are peaceful people,

Not by nature, though.
Which is exactly why they work so hard to suppress emotions.



To be fair, this didn't really seem to work all that well. Spock still goes crazy, still kills his best friend in an obvious set-up. The most puzzling thing is that this somehow snaps him out of it--a mechanism for increasing group survival rates by shutting down reproduction when circumstances are such that intragroup conflict is engendered, or a psychological and physiological quirk peculiar to Spock alone, and worthy of intense study by the licensed perverts of the Vulcan Science Academy?
Spock has survived to the age of 150+, most of it far away from Vulcan, including a couple of decades on Romulus... that's a lot of Pon-Farrs, even if he did not get them on a regular basis and 'skipped' a few. Obviously, he somehow got a relief every time, and it most likely did not involve killing people or believing that he killed his best friend. And it certainly did not involve T'Pring. Theoretically, he might have gotten married to someone else, but there sure was no sign of any wife when he went to Romulus. So unless he managed to get relief in other ways (mediation, etc.), he must have had the 'help' from non-bethroted sources, including some Romulans*.

* In the last scene of "Unification", there was already one unnamed female member of the Romulan resistance who seemed like an eager potential candidate (the one who looked very distressed when it seemed like Spock was leaving with Picard and Data, and got a comforting gesture from Daniel Roebuck's character). ;) :rommie:
 
Folks, this is "fascinating". :vulcan:

I've wondered for years why GR and the writers of TOS saddled the Vulcans with pon farr. It's often felt like a mere gimmick to me, but it's completely inescapable now. We are (and the Vulcans are) stuck with it.

D C Fontanna has said Vulcans can mate anytime, but that they must mate during pon farr. For Myasishchev especially, what is the evolutionary purpose of pon farr in such a long lived race?

And...lest we take too strictly a determinist view ...let me also ask you this:

What about gay Vulcans? (Please fee free to ignore canon and slash in this discussion.) Cultural taboos aside, one would expect Vulcan sexuality to be at least as complex as human.

As far as rape goes, the highly ethical Vulcans regard any encroachment or forcing of oneself on another person - be it mind or body - as abhorent. We are told that that Vulcan in modern times is a peaceful, non-violent, low crime society. That seems highly "logical" to me.
 
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