Hard Star Trek

[Autistoid]

Alright a thread dedicated to rebooting star trek into something along the lines of a harder sci fi.

With quotes and links from other threads being posted.

Of course not everything has to be ultra sci fi, however there are some interesting ideas in these threads.


http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=10223392#post10223392

If we ever get a new Trek show, I think they need to do something new, that hasn't been done before.
And then it needs to do something that hasn't really been done since the original show as well: sparking the imaginatition and people's interest in space exploration.

Could a hard sci-fi route be the way to achieve that?

get a couple of scientific advisors on the show to make sure, that it deals with real phenomenon only.
When the Enterprise encounters new planets, stars, black holes, they make sure that the science is actually accurate to the best of our current knowledge with the surrounding drama making it wondrous and impressiv as it really is for cosmologists, physicists and biologists, etc.

Some concessions have to be made to keep some trek staples intact, like Warp Drive, but adapting it as closely as they can to real world science.
What would it look like to a person traveling at warp when spacetime around him is strechted and bend?
Being out of communication with far away places and bases.

Aliens would be a little rarer and not just people with funny foreheads and certainly not biological compatible to produce offspring.

It could be a dramatized version of Cosmos and Neil DeGrass Tyson plays the Captain! (ok, kidding with that last one.)

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=256948

If this is a new Star Trek series, then hell, I scrap the idea of Federation. I don't like the concept of Federation. It's like, a single country rule over everyone on Earth. No, I prefer a more multipolar world. Where countries still exist even in this new Space Exploration Era.

The political situation in this new story follow our today reality. Where more countries emerges as "Space" Countries (like India and China). Then everyone of them (the Space Countries) agree to take aside their different and work together in Space. Everyone agree that no one should rule over the other planets. So every Space Project will be lead by United Nation of Space Program, and all colonies out there will administrate by the Directorate of Human Colonies.

Every rich nations, like Western Europe, China, Russia, United States and India will donate their resource and material for this humanity huge projects. Thus, a multi national Star Fleet is born.

Our story happen in 22nd century, where humanity has reach another star system and WARP DRIVE has been developed and implemented to everyone Starships; but still at it's earliest level of technology. Alien, which was a myth in 21st Century has been found, and we have conducted first contact with them. But because of the great difference, communication is still almost impossible and distrust make the tension arise. The members of Space Program and Multi National Starfleet urge that everyone increase their space military budget to fill the void with Earth presence.

Our hero is happen to Jonathan Archer, the captain of USS Enterprise. Unlike Star Trek Enterprise and TNG canon, USS Enterprise is basically the United States Starship. She is the member of Multi National Starfleet, just like the other ships from EU, China, India, Japan and Russia. Their original task was to explore new star systems. But after the spectacular First Contact, the ship is weaponized; in case that the Alien is hostile and she has to answer the fleet do defend the Earth Interest. The Enterprise is one of few ships from the Earth that equipped with WARP Drive. But because the engine is still considered as experimental, sometime it cause problem and even danger to the crews. Despite of that, Captain Archer menage to survive even after they face monstrous danger that they must face in the other star system.

The Season 1 will focus on the Starship Enterprise exploration mission to the final frontier. There won't be Alien of the week. Instead there will only 1 intelligent Alien being that they'll find in the mission. The danger that they face will not only come from the Alien. But also come from the space itself. The Enterprise is not the 24th Century Enterprise D that can withstand everything that throw into her. It does not even equipped with the super medical technology that can cure everything. People can die anytime, even Archer himself, and no one can save them if they die in the process.

Like modern era technology, the Enterprise is equipped with drones and other highly advanced technology. The crews won't go outside and go down to the planet without any safety precaution. But the danger that they face still can kill everyone on board. And first contact won't be an easy task that the captain must face. The difference between species make the communication become almost impossible. The Earth already feel that their plate full with 1 space capable Creature that they met in previous contact. Another contact with space capable Alien can cause hysteria on Earth.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=251617

Alright Im gonna borrow from BSG, and apply the idea to star trek. Make the show a hard sci fi version of star trek, with no aliens no ftl, transporters, force shields, artificial gravity, sub space commuication or other unknown techologies and stick to ones we know likely to exist.


In not too distant future earth developes an advance knowledge of human genetics, nuclear fusion, and advanced computing techologies.

Genetic engineering becomes common place, augmented humans attempt to take over the world in a great eugenics war.

Towards the end of the war, and nuclear fusion expert zefhrane Cochran, develops the nuclear propulsion technologies allowing for a mass colonization of the solar system.

upon the end of the war, a unified planetary federation emerges. With strict laws governing the use of genetic engineering i.e. the prime directive. . As a consequence of laws, many augmented peoples are expelled from earth to orbital colonies around the asteroid belt. The initiates the ;last contact; between augments and earth.

2 centuries after the events of last contact, the planetary federation now a utopia is sending out a wave of exploration missions to the long forgotten augment colonies. With each colony having to deal with a unique survival scenario, diverse genetic adaptions, and philosophies occur.

Aboard the nuclear propulsion vessel Enterprise a captain jame t kirk sets out on a five year mission to seek out these colonies.

After nearly 2 centuries of federation mandated isolation, it appears these colonies have developed into societies of their own.

With several augment groups fighting for dominance of the solar system. It appears the most deadly of these groups are the descendants of cardassia colony, kronus colony, and romulus.

Seeking allies from more pleasant colonies, such as betazed, orion colony, vulcan, bajor, and andor, the federation seeks a great solar Confederacy.

This thread here has some interesting stuff as well.
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=241705

 

[BillJ]

Why try to make Star Trek something it was never intended to be? Just create something new.

 

[Tarek71]

On one level, I am with BillJ on this. Why call it Star Trek then? But I could easily see how, if we grant that the events of First Contact happened, that there could be alternate timelines where the Borg wreckage was discovered much earlier than the 2150s, perhaps as early as the 2060s, and this changed Earth history.

Earth still goes to the stars, and there is still a Jonathan Archer, but his ship and the Earth of the 2150s is radically different one than the version in the show. Never mind if it's "harder" or not. Just the possibility of exploring how Earths history is changed and AltTrek ideas.

Not unlike the "What If... " comics of Marvel. Could have potential. Maybe fanfic or TrekLit potential. I cant see any of this in the CBS/Paramount productions, but still. Could be interesting. I dont mind alternate timelines like the ones listed in the OP or what I mentioned. Sure if there is no trek through the stars, it seems odd to call it Star Trek, but there are lots of possibilities for telling the ST story.

 

[Autistoid]

Why try to make Star Trek something it was never intended to be? Just create something new.

Why anything?

Why make a new series if it's just gonna be a rehash of TOS?

Why talk about the future of trek if you don't wanna change it?

I find it mildly ironic that a show about exploration, have fans that are so against exploring different ideas for the next series.

I'm not saying any one idea is the best, but there are sure as hell alot of good ideas out there.

You've made clear 100 times you have no interest in expanding or changing the star trek forumla. And I've made it clear I think I'm all for changing the forumla and trying something new to give life to star trek.

To me star trek will always be about humanities utopian future, as it thrives in the next frontier.

But this seems to be a fundamental issue that hasn't gone away from the late 80s.

People refused to acknowledge tng as trek, because it changed things and updated them to make more sense in its time period.

DS9 maintained this ark and did the next logical step forward.

 

[HIjol]

There are basic ingredients in making a traditional cake. Ingredients you MUST include, and cook just so, or it is not a traditional cake.

There are all kind of ingredients to add, to enhance the flavor, look, size, shape and texture of the cake, but it is still cake.

Some people like original, simple, traditional cake.

Some like to add things, or try new things in their cake.

 

[T'Girl]

Autistoid

they make sure that the science is actually accurate to the best of our current knowledge

I wouldn't have a problem with this, consistent with retaining the fantasy science elements already established in canon (warp drive, transporters, etc). When dealing with something which is basically modern day science, sure, get it right.

get a couple of scientific advisors on the show to make sure, that it deals with real phenomenon only.

But that would be taking it too far, only deal with real phenomenon? No, that would restrict the writers too much, keeping real science real is one thing, not allowing Trek to delve into fantasy is unreasonable.

Being out of communication with far away places and bases.

I'm fifty-fifty on this, having the ship occasionally cut off can increase the drama, and the crew should be in the position to make independent decisions. But at the same time they should be able to recieve orders from on high, so maybe a transmission delay of days, but not a total cut off.

Aliens would be a little rarer and not just people with funny foreheads and certainly not biological compatible to produce offspring.

Don't see how the show could still be Trek and have any of this. The thing with the make up of the actors is sometime a matter of production costs.

Neil DeGrass Tyson plays the Captain!

Oh hell no, that piece of shit? We need a captain who can talk to people possessing differing view points and world views without his words dripping with contempt.

A Captain Neil Tyson would be completely incapable of accepting that anyone embrace ideas other than his own.

No, I prefer a more multipolar world. Where countries still exist even in this new Space Exploration Era.

Yes to this. if Earth and the Federation are going to be shown (not a requirement) then I would prefer a more complex and cosmopolitan society to be on display.

Everyone agree that no one should rule over the other planets. So every Space Project will be lead by United Nation of Space Program

That sound like a contradiction.

... and all colonies out there will administrate by the Directorate of Human Colonies.

I like the idea that (certainly early on) individual nations would be establishing colonies, and private groups, religious orders and even businesses (mining colonies like in Devil in the Dark). That something like the United Nations or the United Earth would also be establish colonies, sure.

Make the show a hard sci fi version of star trek, with no aliens no ftl, transporters, force shields, artificial gravity, sub space commuication or other unknown techologies and stick to ones we know likely to exist.

To name just one, with no FTL there is no Star Trek.

 

[Overgeeked]

The one thing hard SF does better than any other subgenre is--on occasion--they manage to hit that old sense of wonder. That's basically what TMP tried to do... with its 20-minute sequence of just flying into the V'Ger cloud/array/complex. Various Trek episodes have tried to replicate this, like with "Encounter at Far Point", with the giant aliens, and "Relics", with the Dyson's sphere.

But trying to mix hard SF and Trek would be a fundamentally losing proposition. No warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no holodeck, no forehead aliens, no interbreeding... on and on. But just take the most basic premise of Trek, a wagon train to the stars, and subtract the warp drive... and your premise disappears. Instead you're left with a generation ship at best.

I'm not saying you couldn't do hard SF and make it as Trek-like as possible, but the basic premise--and the impossible technology that is required to make that premise work--are antithetical to hard SF.

You could certainly try to make it harder by ramping up the exploration and sense of wonder whilst also tamping down on the technobabble and magic tech, but even that would be a fundamentally different thing.

 

[BillJ]

I find it mildly ironic that a show about exploration, have fans that are so against exploring different ideas for the next series.

There comes a point where you cut away so much of the premise that what is left has none of the endearing qualities that make Star Trek special. One of those endearing qualities is that it is soft sci-fi and makes fantastic leaps that makes stories memorable. Physic powers have no basis in science, some of Trek's most memorable episodes deal with exactly that. There is no "The Cage" or Where No Man Has Gone Before" and a plethora of other episodes that deal with the subject in a hard sci-fi TV show.

I love hard sci-fi and I love Star Trek but I don't think the two are remotely compatible.

Besides, is it really "Star Trek" if you're limited to one star?

 

[Autistoid]

I find it mildly ironic that a show about exploration, have fans that are so against exploring different ideas for the next series.

There comes a point where you cut away so much of the premise that what is left has none of the endearing qualities that make Star Trek special. One of those endearing qualities is that it is soft sci-fi and makes fantastic leaps that makes stories memorable. Physic powers have no basis in science, some of Trek's most memorable episodes deal with exactly that. There is no "The Cage" or Where No Man Has Gone Before" and a plethora of other episodes that deal with the subject in a hard sci-fi TV show.

I love hard sci-fi and I love Star Trek but I don't think the two are remotely compatible.

Besides, is it really "Star Trek" if you're limited to one star?

It's been done it's fine as was, why tread over old ground.

The premise isn't about physic powers, it's about reacting to unexplained phenom, in an exciting way that makes you think.

At no point are people gonna stop dealing with unknowns.

Exploring this concept of exploring unkowns to me is only strengthened by using modern science.

It's not just simply about being realistic, star trek at it's best is enlightenment porn, where the quest for knowledge is jsut as important as it is for fresh green skin.

EDIT: as far as the one star that is someone else idea. I've expressed my view that warp speeds should approach the speed of light but not exceed it.

 

[Autistoid]

But trying to mix hard SF and Trek would be a fundamentally losing proposition. No warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no holodeck, no forehead aliens, no interbreeding... on and on. But just take the most basic premise of Trek, a wagon train to the stars, and subtract the warp drive... and your premise disappears. Instead you're left with a generation ship at best.

First be clear I don't think anyone is a fan of ultra hard sci fi, this is something that exists in degrees.

Second all though technologies you mentioned could exist to some degree with the exception of transporters and warp drives.

Transporters regardless of the era are a trope that causes the most grief for many a plots in star trek.

The excessive need to invent technobabble as to why they can't solve virtually all our problems is an on going gag.

This tech needs to be dropped, plane and simple.

Warp drive is more complicated, at the very least any ship should have some sort of power core that can be called our warp drive. However at what point this becomes our driving force is unclear.


With aliens my favorite concept is that the prime directive bans settlement within our inner system (jupiter) and the outer reaches of the solar system are actually habituated by humanoids.

 

[Nerys Myk]

EDIT: as far as the one star that is someone else idea. I've expressed my view that warp speeds should approach the speed of light but not exceed it.

Wouldn't it take years to reach Alpha Centauri at the speed of light and for even longer lesser speeds? So I'm not seeing the potential for other stars there.

 

[Overgeeked]

But trying to mix hard SF and Trek would be a fundamentally losing proposition. No warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no holodeck, no forehead aliens, no interbreeding... on and on. But just take the most basic premise of Trek, a wagon train to the stars, and subtract the warp drive... and your premise disappears. Instead you're left with a generation ship at best.

First be clear I don't think anyone is a fan of ultra hard sci fi, this is something that exists in degrees.

Second all though technologies you mentioned could exist to some degree with the exception of transporters and warp drives.

Transporters regardless of the era are a trope that causes the most grief for many a plots in star trek.

The excessive need to invent technobabble as to why they can't solve virtually all our problems is an on going gag.

This tech needs to be dropped, plane and simple.

Warp drive is more complicated, at the very least any ship should have some sort of power core that can be called our warp drive. However at what point this becomes our driving force is unclear.

With aliens my favorite concept is that the prime directive bans settlement within our inner system (jupiter) and the outer reaches of the solar system are actually habituated by humanoids.

Forget for a moment that not only is FTL out with anything approaching 'hard SF', but so is basically anything that approaches the speed of light. With hard SF you're talking as close to real-world physics and possibilities as you can get.

Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away. So at the speed of light it would take a ship 4.367 years to reach that destination from here, if it were going the speed of light the entire time, so it would take a bit longer with acceleration and deceleration.

As I and others have said, the idea of 'Trek' plus 'hard SF' is simply incompatible.

 

[Autistoid]

The one thing hard SF does better than any other subgenre is--on occasion--they manage to hit that old sense of wonder. That's basically what TMP tried to do... with its 20-minute sequence of just flying into the V'Ger cloud/array/complex. Various Trek episodes have tried to replicate this, like with "Encounter at Far Point", with the giant aliens, and "Relics", with the Dyson's sphere.

But trying to mix hard SF and Trek would be a fundamentally losing proposition. No warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no holodeck, no forehead aliens, no interbreeding... on and on. But just take the most basic premise of Trek, a wagon train to the stars, and subtract the warp drive... and your premise disappears. Instead you're left with a generation ship at best.

I'm not saying you couldn't do hard SF and make it as Trek-like as possible, but the basic premise--and the impossible technology that is required to make that premise work--are antithetical to hard SF.

You could certainly try to make it harder by ramping up the exploration and sense of wonder whilst also tamping down on the technobabble and magic tech, but even that would be a fundamentally different thing.

But trying to mix hard SF and Trek would be a fundamentally losing proposition. No warp drive, no transporters, no replicators, no holodeck, no forehead aliens, no interbreeding... on and on. But just take the most basic premise of Trek, a wagon train to the stars, and subtract the warp drive... and your premise disappears. Instead you're left with a generation ship at best.

First be clear I don't think anyone is a fan of ultra hard sci fi, this is something that exists in degrees.

Second all though technologies you mentioned could exist to some degree with the exception of transporters and warp drives.

Transporters regardless of the era are a trope that causes the most grief for many a plots in star trek.

The excessive need to invent technobabble as to why they can't solve virtually all our problems is an on going gag.

This tech needs to be dropped, plane and simple.

Warp drive is more complicated, at the very least any ship should have some sort of power core that can be called our warp drive. However at what point this becomes our driving force is unclear.

With aliens my favorite concept is that the prime directive bans settlement within our inner system (jupiter) and the outer reaches of the solar system are actually habituated by humanoids.

Forget for a moment that not only is FTL out with anything approaching 'hard SF', but so is basically anything that approaches the speed of light. With hard SF you're talking as close to real-world physics and possibilities as you can get.

Alpha Centauri is 4.367 light years away. So at the speed of light it would take a ship 4.367 years to reach that destination from here, if it were going the speed of light the entire time, so it would take a bit longer with acceleration and deceleration.

As I and others have said, the idea of 'Trek' plus 'hard SF' is simply incompatible.

If your going 90 percent the speed of life, it'd take 6 months or so on ship time, thanks to time dilation.

Assuming most of this travel is done between seasons it's not unimaginable as it sounds.

 

[Overgeeked]

If your going 90 percent the speed of life, it'd take 6 months or so on ship time, thanks to time dilation.

Assuming most of this travel is done between seasons it's not unimaginable as it sounds.

And that's still wildly outside of what the most would consider 'hard SF'. That's the bit you're missing. Your maths may be correct, if you ignore acceleration and deceleration times, but traveling anywhere near that fast is still not in the realm of 'hard SF'.

 

[fireproof78]

I find it mildly ironic that a show about exploration, have fans that are so against exploring different ideas for the next series.

There comes a point where you cut away so much of the premise that what is left has none of the endearing qualities that make Star Trek special. One of those endearing qualities is that it is soft sci-fi and makes fantastic leaps that makes stories memorable. Physic powers have no basis in science, some of Trek's most memorable episodes deal with exactly that. There is no "The Cage" or Where No Man Has Gone Before" and a plethora of other episodes that deal with the subject in a hard sci-fi TV show.

I love hard sci-fi and I love Star Trek but I don't think the two are remotely compatible.

Besides, is it really "Star Trek" if you're limited to one star?

It's been done it's fine as was, why tread over old ground.

The premise isn't about physic powers, it's about reacting to unexplained phenom, in an exciting way that makes you think.

At no point are people gonna stop dealing with unknowns.

Exploring this concept of exploring unkowns to me is only strengthened by using modern science.

It's not just simply about being realistic, star trek at it's best is enlightenment porn, where the quest for knowledge is jsut as important as it is for fresh green skin.

EDIT: as far as the one star that is someone else idea. I've expressed my view that warp speeds should approach the speed of light but not exceed it.

"Enlightenment porn?" I'm not sure I follow that idea, given that Trek started out as action-adventure with social commentary woven in. Not sure what enlightenment came from the tribbles

If you want it to be harder, that's fine, and I'm for that. But I think you can start putting too many artificial limitations on this brand of Star Trek, and then it loses something in the translation.

The use of modern science is great, in my opinion. But, you can use the knowledge of nearby stars from modern science but still keep a distinctly Star Trek feel, with the romantic feeling of adventure.

 

[Autistoid]

If your going 90 percent the speed of life, it'd take 6 months or so on ship time, thanks to time dilation.

Assuming most of this travel is done between seasons it's not unimaginable as it sounds.

And that's still wildly outside of what the most would consider 'hard SF'. That's the bit you're missing. Your maths may be correct, if you ignore acceleration and deceleration times, but traveling anywhere near that fast is still not in the realm of 'hard SF'.

I said harder, as i said 100 times its a matter of degrees.

 

[Trekkin]

But Trek has occasionally tried to do 'harder' stuff. They've also done non-scifi stories (like 'Family') and outright fantasy. By wanting to make the series consistently 'hard', does that mean you want to completely ditch the latter two?

Because I'd have to say 'no' if that's the case. Most of my favourite Star Trek episodes weren't anywhere in the realm of 'hard.' I'd rather they just keep the variety that they always had. If people have a preference for a certain 'type', they can just wait for the home release or streaming and pick the episodes they prefer.

EDIT: and it's not like going harder will fix the technobabble problem. There's plenty of bad hard scifi that does the exact same thing. Just because the babble is more accurate doesn't mean it's well-written.

 

[HIjol]

I am thinking that if there was more Hardness, there would be less room for humor and belief-suspending "science", which are parts of the Core, if you will.

 

[SPCTRE]

There is a lot of very hard Trek out there, but that's for another thread.

 

[HIjol]

Gives a Whole New Meaning to "Deep Space 9"

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