Spoilers General Prodigy plot-arc speculation thread...
- Thread starter eschaton
- Start date
Unless Starfleet is infiltrated.
Prodigy's first finale has aired, so...
- Prodigy "Kids" minus Gwyn at Starfleet with (real) Janeway - "what much bigger plans than Protostar class ship"? = exploring the time wormhole finding Chakotay in the future while getting teached by real Janeway?
- Gwyn on way to homeworld in the present, trying to prevent bad first contact?
- the not federation/Gwyn species lady spy/new antagonist out there somewhere with the bad robot - still looking for Starfleet revenge/destruction.
- Holo-Janeway along with the Protostar KIA or maybe only MIA?, creating a time wormhole to wherever Chakotay and Gwyn' home planet is - in the alternate future?
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Starfleet doesn't know how the Construct works and can't build one themselves, for the time being. So infiltrating Starfleet, in order to copy the Construct, wouldn't work. However, it worked just fine for Oh and company to infiltrate Starfleet in order to use more conventional means to do a similar job on the Mars AI's, without a specific Vau N'akat assist..
-Janeway is evidently planning to go free Chakotay in the alternate future. The 5 "warrant officers" (O'Briens in training? it fits Jankom quite a bit, Dal not so much, he will be getting into the Academy yet I think) will go with her.
-Gwyn is going to make a sort of first contact by herself, I suppose. Probably by attempting to contact her father, a young version of which lives on Solum right now (as Dal realised in his final scene with Gwyn). She can test the waters, try to understand what the root causes are for the Vau N'akat reaction to first contact and attempt to convince her father (and hopefully other prominent Vau N'akat) to take steps to prepare the population for an unevitable actual first contact with aliens (and not merely a Vau N'akat in service to an alien alliance).
-I would guess Ascencia is not pleased Starfleet survived with relatively minor damage and will be even less pleased if she notices Starfleet is already going ahead with First Contact. Since a 3 year younger version of her should already be present with Chakotay (unless they already launched their 100 ships by the time Janeway gets there), I think it is more likely she will turn up on or near Solum, attacking the vessel Gwyn came with or exposing her to the authorities or other dastardly actions.
-It did seem like the Protostar was destroyed, especially now that VA Janeway is directly taking charge of the children and the narrative arc of the hologram seems complete. A moving sacrifice showing that Data is not the only "good" AI.
-Gwyn is going to make a sort of first contact by herself, I suppose. Probably by attempting to contact her father, a young version of which lives on Solum right now (as Dal realised in his final scene with Gwyn). She can test the waters, try to understand what the root causes are for the Vau N'akat reaction to first contact and attempt to convince her father (and hopefully other prominent Vau N'akat) to take steps to prepare the population for an unevitable actual first contact with aliens (and not merely a Vau N'akat in service to an alien alliance).
-I would guess Ascencia is not pleased Starfleet survived with relatively minor damage and will be even less pleased if she notices Starfleet is already going ahead with First Contact. Since a 3 year younger version of her should already be present with Chakotay (unless they already launched their 100 ships by the time Janeway gets there), I think it is more likely she will turn up on or near Solum, attacking the vessel Gwyn came with or exposing her to the authorities or other dastardly actions.
-It did seem like the Protostar was destroyed, especially now that VA Janeway is directly taking charge of the children and the narrative arc of the hologram seems complete. A moving sacrifice showing that Data is not the only "good" AI.
Again, this supposes the idea of direct impersonation. Except, all Oh and the Zhat Vash need to know are what are the vulnerabilities that were exposed in this particular incident. Then, working backwards from the outcome, finding a tech they do know about (assuming it could not be replicated in 5 years time, which may or may not be possible), utilize the knowledge learned to exploit similar weaknesses in Starfleet's infrastructure.
Aren't vulnerabilities in Starfleer computer equipment exposed all the time, given all the malfunctions and hostile takeovers that have happened and continue to happen? What is a vulnerability to the Living Construct, may not be a vulnerability to Romulan methods though. It is likely far beyond what the Romulans can do, much like the Iconian probe infected both Federation and Romulan systems easily.
However, as head of Starfleet Intelligence Oh has all the tools she needs to find out details about the Mars -AI that would help the attackers, even regardless of the incident with the construct.
Except, Oh is inside Starfleet, which means she is uniquely suited to take these exposed vulnerabilities, see exactly what harm was done (after action reports) and create a similar pathway to attack. In this way, it would not look like a Romulan method but a malfunctioning AI that would aid in their plans to destroy the synth and further their goals.
It's a matter of working smarter, not harder.
The Living Construct being able to commandeer SF ships via remote signal is something I can let fly... why?
Mainly because the Vau'N'A'Kat captured and hacked the Protostar... the Living Construct was leaving Protostar systems intact after all (along with tricorders, etc.) because it needed to be used as a Trojan Horse, but otherwise, how long did 'The Order' have the Protostar in their possession?
Chakotay said in his message (in episode 20) that its day 72 since the Vau'N'A'Kat captured the Protostar.
That's 2 and half months (approximately). Who knows when the 'launch date' will be though. Point is that the Vau'N'A'Kat had over 2 months to get 'familiar' with past SF computer systems and program the Living Construct to circumvent them all.
Given that the Protostar was a prototype, it stands to reason it was launched with state of the art security systems too (state of the art at the time).
Mainly because the Vau'N'A'Kat captured and hacked the Protostar... the Living Construct was leaving Protostar systems intact after all (along with tricorders, etc.) because it needed to be used as a Trojan Horse, but otherwise, how long did 'The Order' have the Protostar in their possession?
Chakotay said in his message (in episode 20) that its day 72 since the Vau'N'A'Kat captured the Protostar.
That's 2 and half months (approximately). Who knows when the 'launch date' will be though. Point is that the Vau'N'A'Kat had over 2 months to get 'familiar' with past SF computer systems and program the Living Construct to circumvent them all.
Given that the Protostar was a prototype, it stands to reason it was launched with state of the art security systems too (state of the art at the time).
Now that season 1 is finished, time for early speculation about season 2(A) can start.
I thinks those item may be important in the new season:
-obviously, the search for Chakotay. Kate Mulgrew promised there would be an episode dedicated to Janeway and Chakotay (also concering her regrets, and I suppose their relationship in general). The question is only whether they will reach him during S2A or only in S2B. And also at what point in the future timeline they will end up: before or after the Protostar is relaunched, with the Construct on board? Potentially, they could reclaim the ship and holo-Janeway as she was at that point (so minus her experiences with the Protogies).
-Brett Gray stated that Dal would be on a ship where he will be trained alongside other Starfleet recruits. So, Janeway will likely put them either on a training ship or on a large ship that has a mix of experienced personnel and trainees, and part of the plot would be their interactions with instructors and fellow trainees. The question is how this will be combined with a very high risk operation to future Solum. Will there be some training, before Janeway hand picks personnel (or asks for volunteers) for this dangerous mission, possibly using another ship for this specific mission (a sturdy Prometheus would be nice I suppose, or a cloaking Defiant or some such) ?
-Gwyn will be on her way to Solum and/or already there, presumably trying to reach and influence her father (50+ year younger version). There will also be a younger Ascencia, and older Ascencia is probably rather likely to turn up there, too. Question here is how much or how little screentime this part will get, as it will be largely or wholly isolated from the rest of the show. Though older Ascencia is likely to be an antagonist here too, making life difficult for Gwyn, it may just be possible that she and Gwyn end up working together to try and avoid civil war, as Ascencia doesn't want that anymore than Gwyn does. (older) Ascencia may also have useful insights on what actually happened in the bad, alternate future, if they could manage to communicate without fighting.
-there will be more legacy characters, of which at least two will be relatively big characters from two different legacy shows. Tysess and Noum may also be back.
A big question here is whether and if yes, how the Chakotay and Solum storylines would interact. One possibility is that Gwyn's actions (and potentially Ascencia's) may have impact on the stability of the temporal wormhole, because the connection between the alternate future and the present may be weakened if there are ever more significant changes made that will affect the future. That could lead to a weird mechanism where the wormhole threatens to close prematurely for Chakotay, Janeway and co to escape and the audience kind of has to root for Ascencia to sabotage Gwyn some more so she isn't succesfull too soon.
Another possibility is that there may be 52-year older Gwyn on their version of Solum, which is only possible if the temporal wormhole leads to an alternate future that had already been altered by the return of Diviner and co (but where the civil war still occurred anyway). The idea being that older Gwyn would pass on a message/advise to younger self through the other Protogies ("this is what I did wrong this time around").
Another question is whether or not Gwyn would be able to get into Starfleet with the others, at some point. I don't think this can occur until the Solum storyline has been largely completed, and that may only be at the end of S2. Since an S3 is not certain yet (not ordered yet), this may mean we never really see Gwyn unite with the others. The question is also whether the plan of the producers/writers is to let her go to Starfleet anyway, or if she would be more or less written out of the series after that. It's possible she could chose to stay on Solum.
The best option for Gwyn to reunite with the others would probably be if her role is limited to influencing her father, and he can take it from there. Even then, it may require an official first contact before Starfleet would even consider letting her join.
I thinks those item may be important in the new season:
-obviously, the search for Chakotay. Kate Mulgrew promised there would be an episode dedicated to Janeway and Chakotay (also concering her regrets, and I suppose their relationship in general). The question is only whether they will reach him during S2A or only in S2B. And also at what point in the future timeline they will end up: before or after the Protostar is relaunched, with the Construct on board? Potentially, they could reclaim the ship and holo-Janeway as she was at that point (so minus her experiences with the Protogies).
-Brett Gray stated that Dal would be on a ship where he will be trained alongside other Starfleet recruits. So, Janeway will likely put them either on a training ship or on a large ship that has a mix of experienced personnel and trainees, and part of the plot would be their interactions with instructors and fellow trainees. The question is how this will be combined with a very high risk operation to future Solum. Will there be some training, before Janeway hand picks personnel (or asks for volunteers) for this dangerous mission, possibly using another ship for this specific mission (a sturdy Prometheus would be nice I suppose, or a cloaking Defiant or some such) ?
-Gwyn will be on her way to Solum and/or already there, presumably trying to reach and influence her father (50+ year younger version). There will also be a younger Ascencia, and older Ascencia is probably rather likely to turn up there, too. Question here is how much or how little screentime this part will get, as it will be largely or wholly isolated from the rest of the show. Though older Ascencia is likely to be an antagonist here too, making life difficult for Gwyn, it may just be possible that she and Gwyn end up working together to try and avoid civil war, as Ascencia doesn't want that anymore than Gwyn does. (older) Ascencia may also have useful insights on what actually happened in the bad, alternate future, if they could manage to communicate without fighting.
-there will be more legacy characters, of which at least two will be relatively big characters from two different legacy shows. Tysess and Noum may also be back.
A big question here is whether and if yes, how the Chakotay and Solum storylines would interact. One possibility is that Gwyn's actions (and potentially Ascencia's) may have impact on the stability of the temporal wormhole, because the connection between the alternate future and the present may be weakened if there are ever more significant changes made that will affect the future. That could lead to a weird mechanism where the wormhole threatens to close prematurely for Chakotay, Janeway and co to escape and the audience kind of has to root for Ascencia to sabotage Gwyn some more so she isn't succesfull too soon.
Another possibility is that there may be 52-year older Gwyn on their version of Solum, which is only possible if the temporal wormhole leads to an alternate future that had already been altered by the return of Diviner and co (but where the civil war still occurred anyway). The idea being that older Gwyn would pass on a message/advise to younger self through the other Protogies ("this is what I did wrong this time around").
Another question is whether or not Gwyn would be able to get into Starfleet with the others, at some point. I don't think this can occur until the Solum storyline has been largely completed, and that may only be at the end of S2. Since an S3 is not certain yet (not ordered yet), this may mean we never really see Gwyn unite with the others. The question is also whether the plan of the producers/writers is to let her go to Starfleet anyway, or if she would be more or less written out of the series after that. It's possible she could chose to stay on Solum.
The best option for Gwyn to reunite with the others would probably be if her role is limited to influencing her father, and he can take it from there. Even then, it may require an official first contact before Starfleet would even consider letting her join.
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Gwyn could actually inadvertently be part of the catalyst ‘butterfly effect’ that starts the Vau N’Akat civil war on Solum in the future. If Gwyn travels to Solum to influence/change future history or her fathers mind, she may be part of the predestination paradox which actually causes the civil war.
Gwyn influencing the population of Solum could cause a political divide on the planet. This divide may not exist until Gwyn shows up and manipulates the inhabitants of Solum in to believing that something pre ordained will happen 50 years in the planets future. When the Prometheus *does* show up, this is when it all kicks off on Solum, with seeds of the divide already sown by Gwyn.
The Vau N’Akat may even begin to worship Gwyn, thinking that she is some form of Prophet, especially when her prophecy comes true and the Prometheus shows up. Gwyn may inadvertently cause some form of religious civil war on Solum? Gwyn could even end up leading one of the factions in the civil war?
Perhaps Temporal Investigations or the USS Relativity need to investigate?
This has been discussed before on this board and there's no consensus, but I do not believe there is a predestination paradox, and so do (in universe) VA Janeway and the Vulcan science officer: "alternate future", as those say.
I don't think "predestination paradoxes", which are very much entangled with inevitable fate in which the involved characters basically have no agency, are something to be used in a more-or-less sciency (though it is certainly not hard SF) and generally optimistic Star Trek, and even less so in a family show that wants to leave the audience with a warm feeling (even when there is sacrifice, as the S1 finale masterfully did). Such a paradox is maybe better suited to the fantasy genre (where inescapable prophecy may be involved, anyway, see Wheel Of Time) or to a timetravel centric movie/series specifically designed around this (and the inevitability of it all).
As far as plot goes, it also strikes me as a lazy device so the writers don't need to be logical or explain anything: everything happens because it's preordained that way and it can only happen that way. No need to bother with mundane things like cause and effect, when predestination paradoxes can have the effect be the cause in the first place.
And another thing that irritates me about predestination paradoxes is that even in franchises where it works as a storytelling device, the characters involved usually take active steps to make the paradox come true/maintain it, allthough that should be wholly unnecessary because it is inescapable anyway, no matter what you do or don't do. See Terminator, where Connor sends his father back in time so he gets born, but he was born already so why would he need to do that? In a predination paradox, his father went back in time anyway, whether or not Connor sent him back or not.
Furthermore, Gwyn is not doing anything remarkable as far as influencing time goes. We all are influencing/changing "future history" all the time. There is nothing dastardly or even special about it.
Who says a Prometheus class vessel will show up? The future has been changed already, compared to the alternate one "divined" by the Diviner and Ascencia. Starfleet is aware of the situation, and Starfleet lost a bunch of ships (destroyed or damaged). The mission that discovered Solum may have been postponed or scrapped already, while another mission to Solum may have been greenlighted (assuming Gwyn is on a Starfleet vessel, rather than alone on a small shuttle), possibly using another vessel.
The political divide on Solum clearly existed in the Diviner's alternate future - he himself said he couldn't unite them - and Gwyn did not exist in that future. So clearly, Gwyn is not the cause for the political divide, not even if she is to become the Vau N'akat version of Greta Thunberg in the present timeline. And I rather doubt she will launch one of her rousing speeches on market places or something like that, the more likely approach (I think) is to low-key approach the young Diviner and his likely allies and explain things to them first. It's also very, very, very unlikely that Gwyn could cause such a massive divide, while everything would be fine without her. There are obviously fundamental fractures in Vau N'akat society that lead tot the civil war.
Furhermore, why would Gwyn manipulate the inhabitants? In the series so far, it is Gwyn who gets manipulated to some extent (by the Diviner, by Drednok, by holo-Janeway, by Ascencia, by Okona), while she usually is completely earnest.
And "believing that something preordained will happen" => but Gwyn nor the Diviner believe it's preordained, which is why both want to avoid that it happens!
Unlikely, especially if Gwyn attempts to keep a low profile. The man who would be her father is there to lead a faction, along with his allies.The Vau N’Akat may even begin to worship Gwyn, thinking that she is some form of Prophet, especially when her prophecy comes true and the Prometheus shows up. Gwyn may inadvertently cause some form of religious civil war on Solum? Gwyn could even end up leading one of the factions in the civil war?
Why? If it's a predestination paradox there is nothing they can do anyway, and if not Gwyn has every right to attempt to shape the future as she sees fit, just like everybody else also does?
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Some more speculation:
Apparently there is a series of post-Voyager books by Kirsten Beyer, "Full circle", which depicts Janeway returning to the Delta Quadrant with a small fleet of ships, in a mission somewhat similar to what Chakotay was supposed to be doing in "Prodigy", with the Protostar.
Given that Janeway said to Dal and co that she has much bigger plans for them, while on the other hand the final mission log indicates that Starfleet has classified the temporal anomaly that leads to Chakotay (which may indicate they won't necessarily approve a mission to go save him, at this stage), maybe it is possible she will be doing something similar. In that case, it could be she is on the Voyager-A but the recently completed Protostar-class ship may join a very small fleet as a long-distance scout ship (possibly, the Dauntless could also join or turn up later in the season as a deux-ex-machina) for the Delta quadrant.
That would be a fairly good reason for Janeway to include her young trainees, who do have experience on such a ship. They could then combine training and being a part of the crew on the large vessel, and still have side adventures on their own on the small one. Which no doubt would include a trip to the timey-wimey wormhole, sooner or later, with or without Starfleet approval (one reason for Janeway to have them along would be personal loyalty to her and also to holo-Janeway, who could potentially be retrieved in her ante-Prodigy state if they can reach Chakotay before launch of the Protostar).
I also wonder if Janeway would want Gwyn to come along if they are going for Chakotay. At first sight it doesn't seem to be the case, since she let Gwyn go in the first place (and maybe she would be a liability rather than an asset, as it may involve violence against her father). However, it could potentially be the case that she belatedly does see a use for Gwyn in order to translate the Vau N'akat language or some such (assuming the UT still can't make heads nor tails of this language, which may be due to the unreadable minds of the Vau N'akat). In that case, it could offer a new source of conflict if the Protogies attempt to secretly retrieve her from present-day Solum at what could well be the moment she starts to get somewhere in her own mission.
Apparently there is a series of post-Voyager books by Kirsten Beyer, "Full circle", which depicts Janeway returning to the Delta Quadrant with a small fleet of ships, in a mission somewhat similar to what Chakotay was supposed to be doing in "Prodigy", with the Protostar.
Given that Janeway said to Dal and co that she has much bigger plans for them, while on the other hand the final mission log indicates that Starfleet has classified the temporal anomaly that leads to Chakotay (which may indicate they won't necessarily approve a mission to go save him, at this stage), maybe it is possible she will be doing something similar. In that case, it could be she is on the Voyager-A but the recently completed Protostar-class ship may join a very small fleet as a long-distance scout ship (possibly, the Dauntless could also join or turn up later in the season as a deux-ex-machina) for the Delta quadrant.
That would be a fairly good reason for Janeway to include her young trainees, who do have experience on such a ship. They could then combine training and being a part of the crew on the large vessel, and still have side adventures on their own on the small one. Which no doubt would include a trip to the timey-wimey wormhole, sooner or later, with or without Starfleet approval (one reason for Janeway to have them along would be personal loyalty to her and also to holo-Janeway, who could potentially be retrieved in her ante-Prodigy state if they can reach Chakotay before launch of the Protostar).
I also wonder if Janeway would want Gwyn to come along if they are going for Chakotay. At first sight it doesn't seem to be the case, since she let Gwyn go in the first place (and maybe she would be a liability rather than an asset, as it may involve violence against her father). However, it could potentially be the case that she belatedly does see a use for Gwyn in order to translate the Vau N'akat language or some such (assuming the UT still can't make heads nor tails of this language, which may be due to the unreadable minds of the Vau N'akat). In that case, it could offer a new source of conflict if the Protogies attempt to secretly retrieve her from present-day Solum at what could well be the moment she starts to get somewhere in her own mission.
I recently saw an interview with Jameela Jamil that was published shortly after "Preludes" aired. https://www.tvfanatic.com/2022/12/star-trek-prodigy-season-1-episode-16-review-preludes/
It has this gem of a quote, that I suspect is likely talking about season 2 (Gwyn and Ascencia haven't yet had the chance to cultivate a relationship of any complexity, given their two brief but intense and hostile encounters):
Unless my interpretation is totally off here, this must mean that Gwyn will interact with at least one version of Ascencia (the young one in the present, or The Vindicator) and I would guess it will be with both. I would not be too surprised if we finally get a sort of redemption arc for older Ascencia as well.
It has this gem of a quote, that I suspect is likely talking about season 2 (Gwyn and Ascencia haven't yet had the chance to cultivate a relationship of any complexity, given their two brief but intense and hostile encounters):
Unless my interpretation is totally off here, this must mean that Gwyn will interact with at least one version of Ascencia (the young one in the present, or The Vindicator) and I would guess it will be with both. I would not be too surprised if we finally get a sort of redemption arc for older Ascencia as well.
Very unlikely. Kevin Hageman has said in recent interviews that the two major engines of season 2 (maybe only season 2A, we'll see) are Chakotay and Solum. The Hagemans also said they can't ignore Gwyn's mission in season 2, for example in this audio chat from around 37:00:I thought that Gwyn had left the series now, like when Tilly left Discovery TBH. But I could be wrong.
The minutes before that also touch on the Diviner and redemption. It's a bit of a messy chat at times, but it's always interesting to hear the Hagemans.
It could be that Gwyn and Solum won't get that much screentime since there are so many characters not in that storyline, but even if so, they will have to show the progress of her mission and Jameela's quote practically guarantees she will meet at least one version of Ascencia. Otherwise, she can hardly develop a complex relationship with her. And the narrative possibilities make me salivate (with 2 Ascencia's in play, and with several options regarding Gwyn's approach as well, there are many permutations possible). This kind of arc development isn't something that Star Trek series usually do (even the Dominion arc on DS9 didn't quite follow this model), but I love it. Plot and character development go hand in hand on Prodigy.
Tilly didn't leave permanently. She'll be back in Season 5, Mary Wiseman was just busy during Season 4.
Well, since Tilly is coming back I guess Gwyn is too.I thought that Gwyn had left the series now, like when Tilly left Discovery TBH. But I could be wrong.
I don't think Gwyn is leaving at all, at least not for season 2. The screentime will be divided between what happens in the Solum storyline on the one hand, and what the other protogies are doing on the other hand. How they will do this is anyone's guess, but in season 1B they did something similar between VA Janeway/the Dauntless and the protogies/Protostar.
However, in case there is more or less closure to the Solum storyline after the finale of S2 (given how the Hageman's approach plotting, this is quite likely), it's not impossible that Gwyn will leave the show or be limited to some cameos. Assuming Gwyn won't fail, she may have reached a narrative peak and in-universe it may be very tempting (or even a necessity) to stay on Solum. OTOH, her relation with Dal may still be pursued after that (assuming the long distance nature of the S2 relationship and the presence of lots of eligible male Vau N'akats doesn't end things prematurely) and there is the question if Gwyn would still want to join Starfleet or not (and if both Starfleet and whatever Vau N'akat faction she is part of would agree with that).
If Gwyn were the main character of a novel series (like Wheel of Time or A Song of Ice and Fire, or say something like the Thrawn trilogy in the Star Wars setting), I think uniting Solum (or at least sowing the seeds for that) would be endgame stuff. Here though, she is part of an ensemble cast and getting her into Starfleet after all that may still be the goal (and indeed, Gwyn likely wouldn't even be allowed to join in an official capacity as long as the matter of first contact with the Vau N'akat still wasn't resolved, because she can hardly be part of Starfleet while attempting to mediate on Solum).
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I really love Gwyn and hope they keep the character on for however long the show is on.
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