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"Fringe"; why all the crap science?

So as much as I like "Fringe", I really have to divorce my fun-seeking brain from the part that insists that the laws of physics and natural sciences apply to this show. As the Joshua Jackson character rightly says in the pilot, this is all "Pseudoscience", meaning false science. None of the "science" that is central to the plots of the existing episodes has any basis in current theory and many of it has been debunked.

And yet it all works in the universe of this show.

Sigh.

I worry that science education will suffer for it.

OTOH, it's just a TV show. Dilemma.

lol welcome to science "fiction"? >_< by definition it is pseudoscience. i've given up on making sense of scifi show's sciences hoping they would make sense with real science. not a single show does that. why should this show be any different? i see this show as the "serious" side of eureka. where in eureka they put a comedic or cute twist to pseudoscience, this show dramatizes it. my advice is to stop trying to make sense of them cause you'll just hate it. i know it's hard sometimes because it just ends up being devoid of logic or sense. that's when i just go, "oh well, it's just meant to entertain the general public." lol
 
lol welcome to science "fiction"? >_< by definition it is pseudoscience.

That is a grossly ignorant, totally false generalization. There have been many science fiction authors, myself included, who strive to ground their fiction in the most realistic science possible; it's a tradition that goes as far back as Jules Verne, who never wrote anything that he didn't believe was actually possible according to the best scientific understanding of his day. As I said, hard SF often inspires real science, as much as the reverse. There's a close and long-standing relationship between scientists and SF authors. Hell, there have been many SF authors who are scientists or professors -- Isaac Asimov, Hal Clement, Gregory Benford, Robert L. Forward, David Brin, Catherine Asaro, Carl Sagan, Charles Sheffield, Geoffrey A. Landis, etc.

I get so sick of people making the glib assertion that the name "science fiction" means the science is nonsensical. That's totally wrong. It's called science fiction because it's fiction driven by science, fiction that arises from hypothetical discoveries or advances in science and technology. That science doesn't have to be realistic, but it very often is in prose SF, vastly more often than it is in film and TV. What passes for SF on film and TV is a very, very narrow cross-section of what SF actually encompasses, or a very superficial reflection of it, and it more often represents the exception than the rule.

i've given up on making sense of scifi show's sciences hoping they would make sense with real science. not a single show does that.

Again, a false generalization. A very, very few SFTV and film producers have been conscientious enough to strive for credible science, but they tend to get shoved aside by producers who don't. Gene Roddenberry consulted with plenty of scientists, engineers, and think tanks in developing Star Trek, and although he and his writers misinterpreted a lot and took a lot of poetic license, they created a show that at least had one foot in real science, more so than any of ST's contemporaries. TNG started out being even more rooted in credible science, although once Roddenberry died, it began to get increasingly ludicrous. Before then, in the '80s, there was a short-lived show called Probe which Isaac Asimov co-created and which made an effort to base its stories on real science, albeit focusing on "fringe" elements thereof such as ball lightning and artificial intelligence. In 1973, the producers of Doctor Who made an adult SF drama called Moonbase 3, which was a largely realistic look at the problems that might be faced by Lunar colonists in the future; but it only lasted for one brief season. The first season of SeaQuest DSV was initially quite well-grounded in credible science and futurism, although some stories about psychics and ghosts and aliens snuck in later in the season, and then the new producers in the second season turned the whole show into mindless fantasy fluff. The original writing staff of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda included individuals who were very knowledgeable about science and technology (I know, I've corresponded with them online for years) and made a sincere and largely successful effort to make GRA the hardest hard-SF show ever seen on television (with the help of a JPL rocket scientist who was their paid technical consultant); but unfortunately the showrunner was fired after a year and a half and his successors turned it into just another piece of gibberish. And a few years back there was a near-future courtroom drama called Century City that explored the legal and ethical dilemmas that could arise from credible advances in known science -- just the kind of informed, grounded futurism that drives a wealth of SF in literature. But it was cancelled after a handful of episodes.

Again, there's a lot more to SF than just shows and movies. Books have been around a lot longer. And there are countless SF novels and short stories that have successfully remained consistent with real science, or at least taken creative license with it in an informed and credible fashion. Unfortunately, the will to do the same thing in film or television is rare in those industries. Perhaps because there are so many people involved in the process and so few of them have the necessary knowledge of or interest in science, so the industry doesn't nurture that approach. It's easier for a single knowledgeable author working with a single knowledgeable editor.

my advice is to stop trying to make sense of them cause you'll just hate it. i know it's hard sometimes because it just ends up being devoid of logic or sense. that's when i just go, "oh well, it's just meant to entertain the general public." lol

For the third or fourth time: I have nothing against shows that are fanciful. I just wish we could get a few shows that aren't -- just for variety's sake. Fringe is okay, but it's just more of the same thing we've been getting for decades. Credible science is so rare in TV that it would be fresh and innovative if someone actually committed to using it. Heck, early Andromeda was, at least from a writing standpoint, the most innovative depiction of the future to hit the airwaves since Trek: TOS. But when the science-savvy writers left, the new boss just reduced it to a regurgitation of familiar sci-fi cliches and gimmicks, just the same old same old. And that wasn't nearly as interesting.
 
No, that's not the premise of the show. The premise, as explicitly stated by characters in the show, is that they're dealing with science that is so advanced and progressing so rapidly that it's no longer possible to comprehend or control.
No, that's what you want the show to be. The show itself has been pretty damn clear that it's about mad scientists practicing and proving "crazy" theories. The bit you quoted came from the mouth of one of said mad scientists (or at least a mad scientist's Igor).

People like you need to step back and learn how to watch a show for what it is, not what you desperately want it to be. Especially since it clearly upsets you to these catastrophic levels.
 
Exactly what part of the word 'Fringe' does the original poster have a problem understanding? Exactly what did you expect coming into the show? That they would offer proof that 'fringe' science is actual good science? :lol: :lol: :lol: Geez...

There are valid points of criticisms of the show, but to not understand/get its basic premise and topics which are pretty clearly laid out in the title sequence... I don't understand that.
 
I'll never understand why people get their knickers into such a twist over the scientific accuracy of a television show that is meant to entertain. Sci-fi fandom has turned into a bunch of nitpicky fun-hating geeks.
I am happy to get my science education from books and journals and not in front of the boob tube, thank you.
 
Do you honsestly believe there's a network that allow such a show let alone understand it and that's notto mention the general public?

PBS would be the place for this sort of thing to happen. Imagine them dong a scientifically literate science fiction series on PBS. Probably won't happen, but it'd be interesting to see it.
 
No, that's not the premise of the show. The premise, as explicitly stated by characters in the show, is that they're dealing with science that is so advanced and progressing so rapidly that it's no longer possible to comprehend or control.
No, that's what you want the show to be. The show itself has been pretty damn clear that it's about mad scientists practicing and proving "crazy" theories. The bit you quoted came from the mouth of one of said mad scientists (or at least a mad scientist's Igor).

No, it comes from multiple interviews with the creators and articles about the show, as well as from statements made by Blair Brown's character within the show, who's hardly a mad scientist or an "Igor."

Abrams: Since we started working on it, as you look in the paper almost every day and certainly every week, there are stories [where] I think, "'Excuse me! This is exactly what our show is doing." Meaning 10 years ago I think Fringe undoubtedly would be called science fiction. I'm not saying things happening in this show are happening in this instant, but I think if you actually look at what the show is doing or what it's alluding to and what its subject matter is, a majority of the things that we are dealing with are real.

Orci: Every week you can literally open the newspaper or get online on any one of your favorite news sites and you'll read a story that would have seemed like science fiction 10 years ago ... Fringe is as current as can be.
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/interviews/sfw19440.html

Of course, what we've actually seen proves they were just blowing smoke when they said this, but it does show that their intent was cutting-edge science, not "crazy" or "debunked" science. Yes, the idea is that it involves fringe-science ideas that are not yet accepted by the scientific community, but that's different from ideas that have been "debunked" or "proven wrong," which were the terms you used before. Perhaps you simply chose your words poorly. There's no need to get personal or hostile here.
People like you need to step back and learn how to watch a show for what it is, not what you desperately want it to be. Especially since it clearly upsets you to these catastrophic levels.[/QUOTE]

I'll never understand why people get their knickers into such a twist over the scientific accuracy of a television show that is meant to entertain. Sci-fi fandom has turned into a bunch of nitpicky fun-hating geeks.

And I'll never understand why people don't listen to something even when I restate it four or five times. Once more, I have no problem with the existence of shows that are just meant to be empty entertainment. My point is simply that not every show in existence has to be that shallow and empty. In prose literature, science fiction is often highly intelligent, thought-provoking, and intellectually and philosophically challenging, delving into cutting-edge ideas and difficult moral and ethical questions. Popcorn is fine, but SF can be a nourishing meal as well. And mass-media SF virtually never tries to be more than popcorn, and that's frustrating.
 
And I'll never understand why people don't listen to something even when I restate it four or five times. Once more, I have no problem with the existence of shows that are just meant to be empty entertainment. My point is simply that not every show in existence has to be that shallow and empty.
economics, demographics and the lcd principle insure that aside from a few examples of "deeper" or "more intelligent" storytelling, the way to make money is to appeal to the base tastes and desires if you want to turn a profit in the entertainment business.


In prose literature, science fiction is often highly intelligent, thought-provoking, and intellectually and philosophically challenging, delving into cutting-edge ideas and difficult moral and ethical questions.
Which is why prose literature exists. People who want to think about moral ambiguities and philosophical ideas are a tiny portion of the population who as a whole does not have the intellectual capacity to find such things interesting. Aside from that most people turn to mass media for escapism and not as a debate on issues that in many cases are not even pertinent to their lives (or at least not obviously so).
Even among the intelligentsia there is not a desire for debate and discussion so much as just a chance to stroke themselves as to how smart they are and do a lot of in-group back slapping amongst other likeminded individuals.

Popcorn is fine, but SF can be a nourishing meal as well. And mass-media SF virtually never tries to be more than popcorn, and that's frustrating.
that's why it's called mass-media. The truth is that the large majority of the population does not have the intellectual capacity to appreciate, speculate or otherwise consider anything beyond their own greedy-monkey instincts.
The most popular shows are all about scandals, sex, murders, sex, melodrama, sex and the ultimate in group-think: organized teams sports.
 
In prose literature, science fiction is often highly intelligent, thought-provoking, and intellectually and philosophically challenging, delving into cutting-edge ideas and difficult moral and ethical questions. Popcorn is fine, but SF can be a nourishing meal as well. And mass-media SF virtually never tries to be more than popcorn, and that's frustrating.

Really? What about BSG? B5? LOST? All three of them are thought provoking, have philosophical discussions and deal with moral and ethical questions.
 
So as much as I like "Fringe", I really have to divorce my fun-seeking brain from the part that insists that the laws of physics and natural sciences apply to this show. As the Joshua Jackson character rightly says in the pilot, this is all "Pseudoscience", meaning false science. None of the "science" that is central to the plots of the existing episodes has any basis in current theory and many of it has been debunked.

And yet it all works in the universe of this show.

Sigh.

I worry that science education will suffer for it.

OTOH, it's just a TV show. Dilemma.

How do you enjoy any television at all? Everything is fake. Everybody is a supermodel with the perfect chick body or guys with abs of steel. The goodguys win and the devices they use on the crime shows are fake. The reality shows are rigged or fake. Game shows have been faked back to the 50s with the guy being fed the answers.
 
Well, I didn't watch the third episode of Fringe because the show is dull. One reason the show is dull is because it's so damn stupid. It flouts all sense without at least being original or even stylish with its nonsense.

So what does that do to all the whining about how TV is not science education? It makes it sound like someone who has an active desire to see stupidity. Now that's the bizarre position that takes a lot of defending in my opinion.

My experience is that the primary cause of ignorance is laziness, not stupidity as such.
 
WOW! A lot to respond to here. First, thank you, Christopher, for taking up the sword of reason on this.

Here's my point: "Humans only use 10% of their brain." This is true, right?

Wrong. We use all of it as has been shown in recent studies using MRIs and other modern technology and the phrase itself is a likely misquote of a late 19th-early20th C. remark that only 10% of the brain had been mapped. And yet many people believe this to be true, so much so that this crops up in non-sci-fi shows. That's what I meant when I said i thought our science education would suffer.

Actual fringe science would be something like the applications and ethical considerations of nano technology or cloning or information storage, etc. Not telepathy (doesn't exist) or astral projection (doesn't exist), etc. That's just crap science. It's non science.

Finally, (at least in this response) I know TV is fake. Good God, I teach theatre courses and one of my central premises is that theatre, all fiction, is fake and should be treated accordingly. I read comic books at the ripe old age of 50. I don't expect a hard science for why Superman can fly. I like "Fringe". But my willing suspension of disbelief is stretched pretty thin with this show, especially when, as Christopher has pointed out, the stated premise differs from the actual premise.

It's just a little disappointing.

But I like the show. Honest.:)
 
lol welcome to science "fiction"? >_< by definition it is pseudoscience.

That is a grossly ignorant, totally false generalization. There have been many science fiction authors, myself included, who strive to ground their fiction in the most realistic science possible; it's a tradition that goes as far back as Jules Verne, who never wrote anything that he didn't believe was actually possible according to the best scientific understanding of his day. As I said, hard SF often inspires real science, as much as the reverse. There's a close and long-standing relationship between scientists and SF authors. Hell, there have been many SF authors who are scientists or professors -- Isaac Asimov, Hal Clement, Gregory Benford, Robert L. Forward, David Brin, Catherine Asaro, Carl Sagan, Charles Sheffield, Geoffrey A. Landis, etc.

I get so sick of people making the glib assertion that the name "science fiction" means the science is nonsensical. That's totally wrong. It's called science fiction because it's fiction driven by science, fiction that arises from hypothetical discoveries or advances in science and technology. That science doesn't have to be realistic, but it very often is in prose SF, vastly more often than it is in film and TV. What passes for SF on film and TV is a very, very narrow cross-section of what SF actually encompasses, or a very superficial reflection of it, and it more often represents the exception than the rule.

i've given up on making sense of scifi show's sciences hoping they would make sense with real science. not a single show does that.

Again, a false generalization. A very, very few SFTV and film producers have been conscientious enough to strive for credible science, but they tend to get shoved aside by producers who don't. Gene Roddenberry consulted with plenty of scientists, engineers, and think tanks in developing Star Trek, and although he and his writers misinterpreted a lot and took a lot of poetic license, they created a show that at least had one foot in real science, more so than any of ST's contemporaries. TNG started out being even more rooted in credible science, although once Roddenberry died, it began to get increasingly ludicrous. Before then, in the '80s, there was a short-lived show called Probe which Isaac Asimov co-created and which made an effort to base its stories on real science, albeit focusing on "fringe" elements thereof such as ball lightning and artificial intelligence. In 1973, the producers of Doctor Who made an adult SF drama called Moonbase 3, which was a largely realistic look at the problems that might be faced by Lunar colonists in the future; but it only lasted for one brief season. The first season of SeaQuest DSV was initially quite well-grounded in credible science and futurism, although some stories about psychics and ghosts and aliens snuck in later in the season, and then the new producers in the second season turned the whole show into mindless fantasy fluff. The original writing staff of Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda included individuals who were very knowledgeable about science and technology (I know, I've corresponded with them online for years) and made a sincere and largely successful effort to make GRA the hardest hard-SF show ever seen on television (with the help of a JPL rocket scientist who was their paid technical consultant); but unfortunately the showrunner was fired after a year and a half and his successors turned it into just another piece of gibberish. And a few years back there was a near-future courtroom drama called Century City that explored the legal and ethical dilemmas that could arise from credible advances in known science -- just the kind of informed, grounded futurism that drives a wealth of SF in literature. But it was cancelled after a handful of episodes.

Again, there's a lot more to SF than just shows and movies. Books have been around a lot longer. And there are countless SF novels and short stories that have successfully remained consistent with real science, or at least taken creative license with it in an informed and credible fashion. Unfortunately, the will to do the same thing in film or television is rare in those industries. Perhaps because there are so many people involved in the process and so few of them have the necessary knowledge of or interest in science, so the industry doesn't nurture that approach. It's easier for a single knowledgeable author working with a single knowledgeable editor.

my advice is to stop trying to make sense of them cause you'll just hate it. i know it's hard sometimes because it just ends up being devoid of logic or sense. that's when i just go, "oh well, it's just meant to entertain the general public." lol

For the third or fourth time: I have nothing against shows that are fanciful. I just wish we could get a few shows that aren't -- just for variety's sake. Fringe is okay, but it's just more of the same thing we've been getting for decades. Credible science is so rare in TV that it would be fresh and innovative if someone actually committed to using it. Heck, early Andromeda was, at least from a writing standpoint, the most innovative depiction of the future to hit the airwaves since Trek: TOS. But when the science-savvy writers left, the new boss just reduced it to a regurgitation of familiar sci-fi cliches and gimmicks, just the same old same old. And that wasn't nearly as interesting.

i appologize for the generalization i guess, but i stand by my statement that scifi these days is generally fanciful which is why it's often lumped with fantasy. and notice i said science "fiction" not science fiction. it is "grossly ignorant" of you not to know the difference.

most of the sciences used in those shows you mentioned may have been grounded in real science, but the ultimate outcome is still too fantastic. sure not all of them are way out there. the truth is that most writers do try to start off with real science as basis. however, what they end up with is often exaggerated for "excitement" purposes. don't tell me you don't see that. also, don't tell me you don't think a lot of the scifi shows on are using too much pseudoscience for their end result.

i probably should have said "not a single show i watch does that" so it made more sense. you might be watching something i'm not. what show is really grounded in science and not something made up? i thought i was watching them all, but i guess not. either that or i'm not up to date with all the latest discoveries. there may have been shows before that were more grounded, but i really don't know of any that are on right now. please enlighten.

also, a generalization cannot be totally false if most of the subjects in the observed group fall within it. generalization does not mean totality. generalization is more about majority. majority by definition is more than half.
 
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Actual fringe science would be something like the applications and ethical considerations of nano technology or cloning or information storage, etc. Not telepathy (doesn't exist) or astral projection (doesn't exist), etc. That's just crap science. It's non science.
Psychoid phenomena have not been conclusively proven to not exist or be "crap science"
 
Many things that have been considered pseudo-science have slowly moved into the area of science. One thing that I have learned in my education is that for any given "law" there is usually an exception. I believe whatever crazy idea you can think up, there is probably some way to pull it off.

I think one of the most interesting things that the show Fringe explores is science without ethical boundaries. If we threw our ethics out the door, I have little doubt the pace of science would increase even more particularly in the biological sciences which are severely dragging behind compared to point where we are in physical sciences.

Anyway, I find it an interesting show.
 
Actual fringe science would be something like the applications and ethical considerations of nano technology or cloning or information storage, etc. Not telepathy (doesn't exist) or astral projection (doesn't exist), etc. That's just crap science. It's non science.
Psychoid phenomena have not been conclusively proven to not exist or be "crap science"

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim for something's existence. There is no reliably repeatable empirical scientific evidence for the existence of psychic powers. Gaps or holes in knowledge are simply that, non-information. In fact, James Randi used his MacArthur genius grant to set up a one million dollar prize for the person who could prove under strict scientific controls that any kind of psychic phenomena exists. That was several years ago (almost 20) and no one has picked up the money yet. This after decades of research done at such institutions as USC, Berkeley (among other colleges and universities worlwide) and various agencies of the US and other governments.

Buzzkill, I know.
 
You know, when it comes to a sci-fi show, I look for interesting characters, good writing, and great hook. I don't go for a science lesson. That's what the Science Channel and Nova are for. When Trek fans, and not the tech obsessed Trekkie zealots, watch Trek, they always mention Kirk or Picard as the reason to why they like it. Not analyzing warp nacelles. Fringe is a great show. Enjoy it for what it is and not for what you wish it to be.
 
Half witted "science" is bad writing. It's like bad grammar, a string of cliches for dialogue, random events for a plot, characters who are either grotesque or cardboard cutouts. We're not talking about speculation or handwaving or poetic license. We're talking about Fringe's jackass stupid tripe mislabeled science. It's hackwork. Attacking people for wanting some good writing is philistinism. Trying to pass it off as some sort of populism is just reverse snobbery.
 
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