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Frigates

James Wright

Commodore
Commodore
Other than the New Orleans class ships are the Miranda class ships classed as frigates or light cruisers?
Which other starship classes are considered frigates?
Thanks!

James
 
Other than the New Orleans class ships are the Miranda class ships classed as frigates or light cruisers?
Which other starship classes are considered frigates?
Thanks!

James

I've seen the Miranda class listed as both a frigate (though called "Avenger" class) and a light cruiser. In both cases, the blueprints I've seen give that class more weaponry and labv space than the Constitution/Enterprise class.
 
This article on Memory Alpha makes reference to a DS9 Technical Manual readout on the Miranda, referring to it as a "medium cruiser", whatever that means.

I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it. I guess it just depends on what kind of definition would differentiate a "cruiser" from a "frigate", and how it would apply to what we've seen.
 
Well, I've always thought of Mirandas as frigates, but only because that's what Fan Tech has been calling them for 20 years. I'm open to revision.

Going back to Hornblower times, frigates had a fair range of sizes, some of them fairly large.
 
I believe the Wambundu class U.S.S. Drake was mentioned in dialogue as a light cruiser, and the Hokule'a class U.S.S. Tripoli was listed on an Okudagram as a heavy cruiser. Other than those, I don't think there were any other specific cruiser-type listings for ships in TNG.
 
If we consider the Miranda to be a "frigate", and a "frigate" would be distinct from a "light cruiser", then maybe a "frigate" could be designated in terms of hull configuration based around a single, "primary" hull, while a "cruiser" would employ both a "primary" and a "secondary" hull for a heavier, more sophisticated design. This would also suggest that the Federation would regard the Romulan Bird of Prey / TOS Warbird as a "frigate", but the Klingon D-7 would likely be seen as a "cruiser".
 
Actually a cruiser could be considered a frigate, look up frigate in the encyclopedia and I'll just bet the term cruiser will show up!

James
 
Back in the days of Horatio Hornblower, frigate and cruiser were synonyms. Okay, a few decades after Hornblower, to be sure, but still.

However, if any navy has used both frigate and cruiser as designation of ship types simultaneously (following the Royal Navy's lead), then frigate has been the distinctly smaller type of the two. If frigate is just a specific type of cruiser (along with things like sloop or brig), then all bets are off.

Starfleet does seem to use both frigate and cruiser as ship type designations. It wouldn't be practical to have them as synonyms, really. So personally I'd rather think of any Starfleet frigate as a ship smaller and less versatile than a contemporary cruiser. The Miranda is not smaller or less versatile than the contemporary Constitution as far as I can tell, so she might be a cruiser of some sort in the 23rd century. In the 24th, though, she'd be way smaller than the New Orleans, so perhaps Starfleet would switch the designation to frigate when it became evident that these old tubs were there to stay?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Based on what criteria?

Per Wikipedia, modern Frigates "are used to protect other warships and merchant-marine ships, especially as anti-submarine warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups, and merchant convoys."

You could argue that the New Orleans class was the latest edition of ships tagged for escort duties; however what would that make the Defiant, which is "officially" classified AS an escort? There are various other definitions of frigate in history, so it stands to reason that the Starfleet definition could be wholly different again - and again, depending on what era you're talking about.

Mark
 
Of course a lot of the classification is relative.

IRL, a frigate or destroyer of today could outclass a battlecruiser of WWII.
And something called a destroyer today is very different from what a destroyer was in WWI or WWII.

I imagine the same would be true in Star Trek.
A frigate from TNG era would be quite different from a frigate in Kirk's day.
A 24th century destroyer might outclass a heavy cruiser from the 23rd century, and so on.

So whatever terms or classifications are used, context would matter...even fictional context.
 
Other than the New Orleans class ships are the Miranda class ships classed as frigates or light cruisers?
Which other starship classes are considered frigates?
Thanks!

James

There's something you're not considering in this discussion. The terms "frigate", "Light cruiser," "heavy cruiser," etc. were terms used in the first season of TNG. After that, those naval terms were never used again to describe Starfleet vessels, probably because TPTB wanted to veer away from viewing Starfleet as a militaristic organization and instead focus on exploration.

Also keep in mind that the Thomas Paine and the Renegade in "Conspiracy" were referred to as "frigates" years before those names were associated with the New Orleans class GCS kitbash. As a matter of fact, the early FASA publication "The Next Generation Officer's Manual" (a precursor to the TNG Tech Manual) had completely different designs for the Thomas Paine ("Paine" class) and the Horatio (Ambassador [Hardin] class).
 
Well, I've always thought of Mirandas as frigates, but only because that's what Fan Tech has been calling them for 20 years. I'm open to revision.

Going back to Hornblower times, frigates had a fair range of sizes, some of them fairly large.

Yeah, frigates were independent ships just below the most powerful "Ships of the Line". They were classed by how many guns they had. Miranda seems to fit this, as do most Starfleet ships. Federation doesn't built ships of the line, just different-class frigates.
 
To be sure, even today these designations are more or less meaningless and interchangeable. A given ship may equally well be classified as a frigate, destroyer or cruiser, because all of these perform the exact same mission: do everything at once, sometimes solo, sometimes as part of a fleet, in order to maintain sea supremacy.

Smaller navies just can't afford seagoing ships that wouldn't be doing everything, from submarine or aircraft defense to sea and land attack. Larger navies used to be better off, but no longer are.

It's the British who started this whole mess. Back before WWI, things were simple: there were armored capital ships or battleships that would pound each other in fleet action; poorly armored secondary ships that would cruise solo or in small groups, hunting for soft targets; and destroyers that would both use the new weapon called self-propelled torpedo to threaten the capital ships, and defend the capital ships against such use.

However, the world wars called for quickly constructed escort vessels for antisubmarine and later anti-aircraft work, and there was a whole range of sizes and capabilities for such vessels, depending on where and how they were expected to operate and how much the navies could afford. For the multitude of designs, the Royal Navy resurrected obscure and illogical names that had formerly applied to sailing ships: frigate, sloop and brig returned to naval terminology, in no way logically matching their earlier usage.

It has been a mess ever since. Today, there are just three types of surface warship: the aircraft carrier, the amphibious attack ship, and the fighting vessel. The first two are partially merged in some navies. The last can be alternately called frigate, destroyer, cruiser or sometimes corvette; the first three are utterly uninformative, while the last vaguely suggests a somewhat smaller size. The Soviets understood the futility of this, and abandoned the old names, save for adopting "cruiser" as the synonym of "very large" in a system where designations ran from "boat" through "small" and "large" to this "cruiser/very large". Other navies tried to do a similar trick and define frigate, destroyer and cruiser as size indicators, usually in this ascending order. However, few navies could afford two different size categories of vessel, and they would arbitrarily pick one of the names for their modern capital ship. Many NATO navies had frigates only, although the Royal Navy insisted on calling some ships destroyers. The USN first had frigate as larger than destroyer, then switched this when more cruisers were needed for PR reasons and every frigate was redefined as a cruiser, then small "destroyer escorts" smaller than the average destroyer were redefined as frigates.

Would Starfleet try to maintain the futile idea that the names indicate size? Dubious, since nobody has ever made a working system that would logically associate the names with sizes. Would Starfleet use historical names relating to the missions of these ships? Dubious, since frigate and cruiser are the same thing historically, yet Starfleet uses both - and the very specific missions of some of the historical types have disappeared when naval technology has changed, and are unlikely to return.

I guess the best bet would be to assume that Starfleet has invented whole new definitions for these historical names, definitions that make sense for an interstellar navy that has major nonmilitary commitments.

After that, those naval terms were never used again to describe Starfleet vessels

Well, "destroyer" made its first appearance in late DS9. The idea of separating the present from the future wasn't quite completely upheld...

Federation doesn't built ships of the line, just different-class frigates.

Which is apt for two historical reasons: it echoes the doctrinal choices of the real United States Navy that was close to the hearts of the people writing Trek, and it echoes the type of old naval adventure that most often was glorified in literature. Ships of the line seldom featured in adventure books, except in the hands of villains and buffoons: the heroes of Patrick O'Brian or C.S. Forester commanded frigates of various kinds.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Quoting from Gene Roddenberry's novelization of TMP, page 115 (when Spock rejoins the Enterprise):

The craft approaching the Enterprise was, by official designation, at least, a long distance shuttle. But the term shuttle was one of those misnomers which are often perpetuated by tradition in a service like Starfleet. It had begun a long time ago with moon shuttles, which had led to large planet shuttles, and now included this trim but powerful warp power craft which could have outraced the starships of only fifty years ago. It was, indeed, as foolish as calling the U.S.S. Enterprise a heavy cruiser, which it was most definitely not. It was the most powerful Federation vessel in existence, deserving at least the old naval description battleship, although some admiral or statesman in the distant past had apparently seen the term cruiser as more civilized and less militaristic. Actually, most proper and accurate of all would have been to term the Enterprise an exploration and research vessel, which best described its principal use and functions.
Mr. Roddenberry's writings indicate this particular subject matter was on his mind as well. His writings led me to conclude that the TMP-era world he was presenting pretty much put the refit 1701 at the pinnacle, as a "heavy cruiser", though it was actually their dreadnought. Perhaps this remained true until the NX-2000 Excelsior was launched.

Perhaps the difference between the classification terms for starships could be broken down according to hull configuration. Cruisers could be ships with separate primary and secondary hulls. Frigates could be ships with only a primary hull.

Of course, even that kind of classification would be relative. When the NX-01 Enterprise was launched, she would be the dreadnought of her day. But by the time the Federation was launching Starfleet ships, the NX-01 was being put in a museum as obsolete and probably smaller and less functional than the Federation starships superseding her.
 
One need not analyze a fleet merely in terms of the ships extant in it. A nation doesn't necessarily declare its best ship "battleship" if it's just a gunboat in comparison with the neighboring nation's best ships. Also, an upstart or underdog may wish to exaggerate the significance of its warships, or then belittle it, for strategic reasons.

Quite possibly the early Starfleet did the early USN thing and decided that it would be politically (and not just economically or strategically) wise to only have a cruiser fleet (with cruisers as the de facto capital ships) rather than start building a battleship fleet.

That the hero ship of the TOS movies is a cruiser of some sort is an onscreen fact. Whether this is a "demotion" from former "higher" status is a possibility perhaps worth exploring. Possibly "battleship" was replaced in Starfleet terminology by the politically more palatable "starship" at some point, and NCC-1701 used to be that originally, while lesser vessels of the era were considered cruisers. But possibly a series of bigger or stronger ships was introduced by the 2270s (say, the oft-mentioned dreadnoughts), making NCC-1701 a "mere" cruiser in the new reality.

Frigates could be ships with only a primary hull.

This doesn't hold true for the only canonically known frigate, the New Orleans...

Perhaps one might argue that frigates are ships that carry external (weapons) modules to achieve what cruisers manage without modules? That would nicely embrace both Miranda and New Orleans in the frigate category if one so desires.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Cruisers (of varying weights) and Frigates are pretty interchangeable words. And can be used depending on the times the ships are built... Frigates can sometimes be found during times of 'peace and calm' and sound a little more like defense. Cruisers are the opposite and sound offensive.
 
It could also be that the designation for "cruiser" and "frigate" changed between TOS and TNG eras. Maybe what the TOS-era Starfleet regarded as the difference between a cruiser and frigate shifted after the Excelsior era began, and progressively larger classes of starships were built.
 
There's an episode of DS9 during a battle with the Cardasian and Dominion where Sisko deploys cruiser squadrons. Can't remember the name of the episode!

James
 
Given the colorful history of the word frigate, the term could mean most anything that SF defines it to mean.

Heck, maybe the only difference in SF's eyes is the that cruisers have science labs and frigates don't.
 
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