Fleetyards: how many is enough?

[Deks]

I am currently endeavoring to reconstruct a long-lost datafile of shipyards & contractors that build Starfleet ships. I have about 110 or so thus far, roughly equally split between federal yards & private contractors. My question is: how many would actually be required?

I'm a large-fleet proponent, & have no problem with 700-1100 ships commissioning a year. Factor in maintenance, refits, life extension programs, & downgrading (e.g., turning a Miranda into a tanker or cargo ship), & there's obviously plenty of work to go around. Add in private contractors, with everyone running round-the-clock shifts (no reason not to). So would 50-60 federal shipyards be enough to handle things, or would 75-90 be closer to the mark?

It's a hard question for me, because realistically I can see the volume being handled by fewer yards, but then they don't all have to be major complexes like San Francisco or Utopia Planitia. 61 Cygni Fleet Construction Yards might be a midsize setup with maybe 15 or 20 docks, & Starbase 134 might only have 8 or 10. Resource management & equipment supply shouldn't be an issue, nor should location–there's no need for placment of a spacedock in a specific spot as with current shipyards.

At the moment, I'm sort of tossing everything in & I can pare down later, but having a practical goal/limit seems advisable.

Given that the UFP has about 1 Trillion people living in it in late 24th century... if just 1%-2% of people are part of Starfleet, then you're looking at MILLIONS of ships in service.
SOL for example would have hundreds of drydocks/shipyards spread throughout the solar system... and EACH member planet solar system would have to be brought up to SAME levels as those found in SOL upon being admitted into the Federation if Starfleet is the main exploratory and defensive arm of the Federation.

My rough numbers for 2371 era:
Ships:
About 10 million ships with 3.5 billion personnel.

With 3 million ships, Starfleet could explore 30 million to 150 million star systems every 5 years if limited to Warp 6, accounting for surveys, stops, explorations - the remaining 7 million would stay closer to home delegated to various duties).

To explore all 100-400 billion star systems in the Milky Way, Starfleet would need 35-65 five-year missions (or about 175 to 325 years of continuous exploration using Warp 8 - accounting for resting periods, scanning, surveying, etc.).

As such, it would take Starfleet approximately 200-300 years to thoroughly explore every star system in the Milky Way, accounting for both habitable and non-habitable systems (at a level of late 24th century technology - and we know Warp speeds have increased significantly to the point where even Warp 9.9 would have been feasible in 2380ies - and that's rated at 21,473 times speed of light).

Mushroom Starbases (spacedock One style) :
150 systems × 16 starbases with about 51 million personnel (aka, 25,000 SF officers per starbase, the other 60,000 would be civilians etc.).

Yorktown style Starbases (assuming the Prime Timeline has them - and it probably does) :
50-100 Yorktown-class starbases with 50 million personnel (approximately 66 Yorktown style starbases if we assume about 3 million population per each starbase, and 25% of that would be comprised of 750,000 SF officers).

Outposts:
30,000 smaller outposts with 60 million personnel.

Planets and Academies:
11.25 billion personnel on 150 member worlds (50-100 million per planet) - as you can imagine, all UFP member planets would have to have numerous SF Academy campuses and installations throughout various locations) - but we can easily make allowances in allocating personnel throughout various colonies too.

Shipyards and Logistics:
2 billion personnel across shipyards and supply chains (roughly about 2-3 large shipyards, each with 200-400 drydocks), which results to about 600-1200 drydocks per solar system, about 300-400 large shipyards Federation wide and 90,000 to 180,000 drydocks Federation wide.

This taking into account UFP is 8,000 Ly's across (radial spread - definitely not cubic).

I used ChatGPT to help me out with this... and this is taking into account automation capabilities, prefabrication with help of industrial grade replicators, transporters, tractor beams and forcefields which would significantly reduce construction times of even largest ships like Galaxy class to about a month or so - DESIGNING ships is another matter and this could take longer, but actual construction times would have to be very low).

The number of personnel for shipyards might be inflated somewhat, but we're accounting for logistical support, design, engineering support personnel, etc.

The real numbers for UFP given the available population should be WELL beyond what the TV shows implies... and the technology is more than up to the task of accomplishing this.

 

[Tomalak]

2% of the population of the UFP is in Starfleet? That would be insane!

The Chinese PLA has about 2 million personnel out of a population of 1.4 billion. That's like a tenth of 1%.

 

[Deks]

2% of the population of the UFP is in Starfleet? That would be insane!

The Chinese PLA has about 2 million personnel out of a population of 1.4 billion. That's like a tenth of 1%.

I said 1-2%.
The comparison to Chinese PLA is not appropriate when you remember that Starfleet is not a military organisation but is more akin to a public service organisation with multi-functionality.

Plus, the whole ideals and principles of UFP and SF (not to mention economics) are completely different compared to what exist today.
I think 1-2% of the UFP population being interested in space exploration and serving in SF is not only realistic, but could be considered conservative.

In fact, given the post scarcity nature of UFP, public service like SF would probably be considered one of the best ways to contribute in society like that (given the emphasis on space exploration - and SF allows people to do so safely as opposed to go off on their own without backup - which is allowed, just discouraged because its dangerous)... so if you want it to be more realistic and appropriate for the actual organisation with those kinds of values, ideals, education, post-scarcity, etc. 3-4% of all UFP population might actually be part of SF (realistically) - which also means my above numbers would have to be doubled at least... if not tripled for the amount of ships in active service alone).

But 1-2% seems more than adequate if you ask me, and about 7 million ships allocated for operations inside UFP space, along with border patrols, etc. would be enough to cover 8,000 Ly's with Warp drive (even at Warp 6 which is about 1000 x LS), while the other 3 million ships are out exploring on 5 year missions).

 

[Mage]

Okay, well, we'll put all that way, way, WAY out on the fringe of the spectrum.

Next option, please.

I'm sorry, but why? You wanted realistic numbers and options. That IS a realistic option.

"Computer, call up registry NCC-6328"
"Would you like current active ship or all vessels that have been registered under this number?"

Tada, problem solved. I know fans would like to believe that every ship ever would get its own unique number, and I have no idea if that is being done in actual navies around the world. But if a future made-up navy wants to reuse numbers because it's easier, why not? It fixes a lot of issues if there actually are over a 100.000 ships.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The comparison to Chinese PLA is not appropriate when you remember that Starfleet is not a military organisation but is more akin to a public service organisation with multi-functionality.

StarFleet is it's own form of "Unique Hybrid Service Organization". It's part Military, Scientific Explorer, Diplomatic Envoy, Rapid Responder, etc.

It has ALOT of duties beyond just basic Combat.

 

[Mage]

StarFleet is it's own form of "Unique Hybrid Service Organization". It's part Military, Scientific Explorer, Diplomatic Envoy, Rapid Responder, etc.

It has ALOT of duties beyond just basic Combat.

Yeah.... People INSIST on comparing Starfleet to something that exist today. Which is a very limited way of thinking. It's its own kind of organization. Like you said.

 

[Deks]

I'm sorry, but why? You wanted realistic numbers and options. That IS a realistic option.

"Computer, call up registry NCC-6328"
"Would you like current active ship or all vessels that have been registered under this number?"

Tada, problem solved. I know fans would like to believe that every ship ever would get its own unique number, and I have no idea if that is being done in actual navies around the world. But if a future made-up navy wants to reuse numbers because it's easier, why not? It fixes a lot of issues if there actually are over a 100.000 ships.

Given the vastness of space, not to mention the kind of tech UFP has at its disposal and even had during its inception, then taking into account automation and exponential developments and even exponential construction, 10 million ships by the late 24th century sounds more plausible for 'realistic' storytelling if 1-2% of the UFP population is serving in SF (especially given UFP's own population and the fact it encompasses 8,000 Ly's worth of space in a radial spread) - that is if you want to be 'realistic' about it.

However, if we stick strictly to what we saw on screen, and if we take into account ship registries, they would have had 74656 ships by 2371 in active service approximately.

In Disco S2, Control mentioned SF has 6000 ships in active service... I don't think a jump of over 12x with about 110 years after mid 23rd century is unrealistic (but considering the amount of space UFP controls, having under 100,000 ships is way too little to effectively defend this amount of space... the numbers would 'realistically' have to range in millions at least).

StarFleet is it's own form of "Unique Hybrid Service Organization". It's part Military, Scientific Explorer, Diplomatic Envoy, Rapid Responder, etc.

It has ALOT of duties beyond just basic Combat.

That IS why I said that SF is more akin to a public service organisation with multi-functionality and not a pure military.
In this context, Picard's explanation that SF is not a military organisation and its in line generally with what we see on screen.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That IS why I said that SF is more akin to a public service organisation with multi-functionality and not a pure military.
In this context, Picard's explanation that SF is not a military organisation and its in line generally with what we see on screen.

What's your definition of "Public Service", what are you expecting them to do?

They aren't going to be out there to pick up litter or cleaning up Graffiti.

They have better things to do.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Emergency Services/Search and Rescue, civil engineering maintenance, possibly natural disaster mitigation, Homefront/Paradise Lost seems to suggest that the "Division of Planetary Operations" that manages the global grid and probably public communications, transporters et al is a Starfleet operation (either directly or potentially through their relationships with the current version of "United Earth Forces").

 

[Deks]

What's your definition of "Public Service", what are you expecting them to do?

They aren't going to be out there to pick up litter or cleaning up Graffiti.

They have better things to do.

Litter picking and graffiti clean-up? That’s a very narrow view of what public service can encompass.

The definition of public service could have been greatly expanded in Star Trek after humanity made first contact with the Vulcans, eradicated homelessness, poverty, disease, and war, and decided to form Starfleet. In this evolved society, public service isn't confined to simple community tasks but reflects a larger commitment to the collective well-being of the Federation and its member worlds.

Public services today already go well beyond what's being implied here. Think about the scientific research conducted by public institutions like NASA, disaster relief provided by organizations like FEMA, or the health services offered by the NHS. These are all public services, and they represent complex, multifaceted efforts that contribute to global welfare. In Star Trek, Starfleet's role includes exploration, discovery, diplomacy, scientific research, humanitarian missions, and yes, defence.

Why couldn't Starfleet's public service include all these aspects and more, especially in a future where the needs and expectations of society have shifted dramatically? It’s not just about ‘defence’ but also about ensuring the overall progress and security of the galaxy’s inhabitants, which aligns perfectly with the broader definition of public service.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Litter picking and graffiti clean-up? That’s a very narrow view of what public service can encompass.

That's the first thoughts that come to mind in many people's view on the topic of "Public Service".
Especially where I'm from.

The definition of public service could have been greatly expanded in Star Trek after humanity made first contact with the Vulcans, eradicated homelessness, poverty, disease, and war, and decided to form Starfleet. In this evolved society, public service isn't confined to simple community tasks but reflects a larger commitment to the collective well-being of the Federation and its member worlds.

So basic Governmental Services has been rolled into Public Services.

Public services today already go well beyond what's being implied here. Think about the scientific research conducted by public institutions like NASA, disaster relief provided by organizations like FEMA, or the health services offered by the NHS. These are all public services, and they represent complex, multifaceted efforts that contribute to global welfare. In Star Trek, Starfleet's role includes exploration, discovery, diplomacy, scientific research, humanitarian missions, and yes, defence.

These are all basic Government Level Institutions & their basic mission statements.

Why couldn't Starfleet's public service include all these aspects and more, especially in a future where the needs and expectations of society have shifted dramatically? It’s not just about ‘defence’ but also about ensuring the overall progress and security of the galaxy’s inhabitants, which aligns perfectly with the broader definition of public service.

Maybe some branches of StarFleet might have them.

StarFleet Medical might interact with UFP Medical to keep them up to date on all Medical Discoveries.

StarFleet Corp of Engineers might work on "Public Works" like Large Dams, or Large city wide structures that require speciality.

But that seems more like StarFleet interacting with their UFP Governmental Counterparts when dealing with the greater Galactic Society.

 

[Tomalak]

It might be a terminology thing. In the UK, "Public Services" are those the national government provides and are paid for by general taxation, i.e. health, education, police, and governmental administration.

 

[Deks]

That's the first thoughts that come to mind in many people's view on the topic of "Public Service".
Especially where I'm from.

Understandable. However, public service, even today, goes beyond basic government-level functions. For example, organizations like Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) provide medical aid, disaster relief, and humanitarian assistance worldwide. MSF is not part of any government but offers essential public services.

Another example is the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation which funds and supports public health, poverty reduction, and educational initiatives on a global scale. Its public service mission has wide-ranging impact, addressing health, technology, and development.

In Trek, SF seems to have taken on all these roles, and expands even further to cover interstellar challenges.

So basic Governmental Services has been rolled into Public Services.

That's the way I look at it. Public service in the Federation likely absorbed what we see today as governmental functions and this largely became SF's domain. But it goes further by incorporating SF's roles in exploration, diplomacy, scientific advancement, and defence. So while these might seem like “basic” services today, their scale and scope in the 23rd and 24th century are massive/complex. Starfleet, being responsible for these tasks across many planets and species, reflects an evolved form of public service that addresses galactic needs.

These are all basic Government Level Institutions & their basic mission statements.

And? FEMA, NHS and NASA are still considered part of public services even if they are part of government.

Also, I'd argue that what we consider 'basic' is far from simple when you expand the scale to an interstellar context. Today’s NASA, for instance, may seem like a basic institution, but its work involves cutting-edge science, technological advancements, and global cooperation. Now imagine this work across potentially thousands of worlds, with the responsibility of maintaining peace, facilitating diplomacy, exploring uncharted territories, handling infrastructure and ensuring the survival of multiple species.

Just as today’s separate organizations serve the public on multiple fronts, Starfleet’s purpose spans many sectors, adapting to the needs of an interstellar society.

Maybe some branches of StarFleet might have them.

StarFleet Medical might interact with UFP Medical to keep them up to date on all Medical Discoveries.

StarFleet Corp of Engineers might work on "Public Works" like Large Dams, or Large city wide structures that require speciality.

But that seems more like StarFleet interacting with their UFP Governmental Counterparts when dealing with the greater Galactic Society.

Yes, these functions might seem to overlap with government-level institutions, but we have seen that Starfleet’s involvement is much more direct and impactful on a galactic scale. They’re not just supporting civilian efforts—they’re often the primary force driving scientific, medical, and infrastructural advancements throughout the Federation. So while collaboration with UFP governmental bodies exists, Starfleet’s multi-functional role means they’re constantly pushing the boundaries of public service across multiple sectors.

 

[DSG2k]

Does anyone have a less fantastical outlook here?

Lonely as Federation space may be, I have 8-12,000 total ships for the UFP circa the Dominion War based largely on a few clue statements sprinkled here and there:

ST-v-SW.Net :: Overview

Additionally, there's analysis of TNG-era ship construction rates based on registries here:

ST-v-SW.Net :: Chrono-Volumetrics

To summarize, the 2360s seem to indicate a 400/year rise in registries, with the 2370s seemingly showing fewer, like 240/year . . . this is contrary to expectations about wartime shipbuilding, but Vreenak's reference to the rebuilding of shipyards may indicate a good reason for the seeming decline. (I'm still wondering about runabouts and Insurrection-style scouts. Small as they are, there should be hundreds or thousands available, seriously impacting registry figures, yet this doesn't seem to be the case for some reason.)

As to your need for shipyard data, it seems to me that you need a ships/year rate for UFP shipbuilding, a number for slips per yard, and an estimate of how fast a ship gets built within a given year (or across years). If it takes six months to build an average UFP cruiser, for instance, then you need one slip per two ships per year, or 200 slips, just for raw shipbuilding . . . repairs and refits add more. If it takes two years to build an average cruiser, then you need 800 slips. If an average dockyard has 20 slips, then you need ten such yards or 40, depending on your shipbuilding velocity estimate.

As for slips per shipyard, the Cardassian shipyard that gets destroyed in DSN7 . . . the Mars shipyard observed in Voyager . . . the simple drydock in TMP . . . all of these can be used to try to establish some info. It certainly seems that there's a concentration of dockyards with a lot of logistics that must be happening off-screen for each slip we see.

 

[Tomalak]

Runabouts may not necessarily all have individual numbers depending on their role. Those attached to starships or starbases may have shuttlecraft-style designations linked to their home base.

The only ones we see really are assigned to Deep Space Nine, which isn't a Federation installation, which may explain their status as starships in their own right.

The Enterprise-D’s runabout is marked up as the Rio Grande, which should probably be discounted.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The only ones we see really are assigned to Deep Space Nine, which isn't a Federation installation, which may explain their status as starships in their own right.

That seems unlikely, but not impossible I suppose.

Personally, I'd preferred registrations but not NCC registrations, making it clear that while they might be a proper space vessel in their own right, they're still not quite the same thing as a full starship.

 

[DSG2k]

Runabouts may not necessarily all have individual numbers depending on their role. Those attached to starships or starbases may have shuttlecraft-style designations linked to their home base.

The only ones we see really are assigned to Deep Space Nine, which isn't a Federation installation, which may explain their status as starships in their own right.

I think I love this. It doesn't solve all the problems, but it mitigates them tremendously.

 

[CaptChris42]

Given the vastness of space, not to mention the kind of tech UFP has at its disposal and even had during its inception, then taking into account automation and exponential developments and even exponential construction, 10 million ships by the late 24th century sounds more plausible for 'realistic' storytelling if 1-2% of the UFP population is serving in SF (especially given UFP's own population and the fact it encompasses 8,000 Ly's worth of space in a radial spread) - that is if you want to be 'realistic' about it.

However, if we stick strictly to what we saw on screen, and if we take into account ship registries, they would have had 74656 ships by 2371 in active service approximately.

In Disco S2, Control mentioned SF has 6000 ships in active service... I don't think a jump of over 12x with about 110 years after mid 23rd century is unrealistic (but considering the amount of space UFP controls, having under 100,000 ships is way too little to effectively defend this amount of space... the numbers would 'realistically' have to range in millions at least).



That IS why I said that SF is more akin to a public service organisation with multi-functionality and not a pure military.
In this context, Picard's explanation that SF is not a military organisation and its in line generally with what we see on screen.

A few thoughts:

Warp 9.9 has varying speed estimates, to go back to an earlier post here. 3048 times the speed of light is the lowest quoted figure (somewhat at odds with some of Tom Paris' statements, in contrast)

Starfleet does probably have a reserve force of vessels, and some may be directly assigned to UESPA instead of the main fleet. That may be where prefixes like NAR and NSP come in. It seems unlikely there was a full 6000 fully commissioned starships all with full registries by 2258, but it is also not impossible, meanwhile (Besides the registry issues)

And the climb in registries from around 2350-70 does seem to be an average of 450 a year, before flattening steeply out to less than 300, meantime. Surely it was much higher thirty years prior, however.

No hard numbers for the number of worlds in the Federation exist, meanwhile - but the old Star Charts book does suggest 7312, by 2379. Spread perhaps over more than 2000 sectors.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

No hard numbers for the number of worlds in the Federation exist, meanwhile - but the old Star Charts book does suggest 7312, by 2379. Spread perhaps over more than 2000 sectors.

Total # of Worlds, there's no firm data.

But Member Worlds cap out at a peak of 350 according to DISCO before "The Burn".

 

[Ithekro]

You would think they would redesign the scale once the fleet is running at Warp 9.9+ all the time, so the captains, helm, and engineering can make the ship fast accurately.
Either bump up with the various warps numbers represent, or start adding teens to the system again for very high warp values instead of warp 9.9995 or whatever. Because you might not need "maximum warp" at all times, but the speed you need is still multiple decimal places after warp 9.