Fleetyards: how many is enough?

[Shik]

I am currently endeavoring to reconstruct a long-lost datafile of shipyards & contractors that build Starfleet ships. I have about 110 or so thus far, roughly equally split between federal yards & private contractors. My question is: how many would actually be required?

I'm a large-fleet proponent, & have no problem with 700-1100 ships commissioning a year. Factor in maintenance, refits, life extension programs, & downgrading (e.g., turning a Miranda into a tanker or cargo ship), & there's obviously plenty of work to go around. Add in private contractors, with everyone running round-the-clock shifts (no reason not to). So would 50-60 federal shipyards be enough to handle things, or would 75-90 be closer to the mark?

It's a hard question for me, because realistically I can see the volume being handled by fewer yards, but then they don't all have to be major complexes like San Francisco or Utopia Planitia. 61 Cygni Fleet Construction Yards might be a midsize setup with maybe 15 or 20 docks, & Starbase 134 might only have 8 or 10. Resource management & equipment supply shouldn't be an issue, nor should location–there's no need for placment of a spacedock in a specific spot as with current shipyards.

At the moment, I'm sort of tossing everything in & I can pare down later, but having a practical goal/limit seems advisable.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Add in Two more Digits to your Min/Max range for # of ships.

Also, split the Fleet Yards to EVERY single Long Time Running Federation Member World with a Fleet Yard in each Star System.

I'd believe that StarFleet has their own Privately Owned/Operated Fleet Yards, and they hire staff as needed to operate them.
Civilian Contractors & StarFleet Personnel mixed together.

 

[Shik]

Add in Two more Digits to your Min/Max range for # of ships.

70,000 to 110,000 per year? No, that's not right.

I'd believe that StarFleet has their own Privately Owned/Operated Fleet Yards, and they hire staff as needed to operate them.

Yes, that's what a federal yard is. To use US terms, federal yards are Pearl Harbor, Puget Sound, Norfolk. Private is Electric Boat, Ingalls, IHI, Newport News.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

70,000 to 110,000 per year? No, that's not right.

Think about it.

By 2373, the UFP has ≥ 150 Members & spread over 8,000 ly
_70,000 / 150 = Minimum of 466⅔ Ships per Member Race assuming we're talking only about 150 Members having Yards in at least one of their Star Systems
110,000 / 150 = Maximum of 733⅓ Ships per Member Race assuming we're talking only about 150 Members having Yards in at least one of their Star Systems

Remember how many StarFleet ships were getting destroyed during the Dominion War and how many StarFleet Officers they had to produce to refill the ranks.
StarFleet & it's allies were losing "Thousands" of ships at a time.
During that time, all Ship Yards were probably operating near Full Production Capacity to pump out StarShips to make up for the catastrophic losses.

Yes, that's what a federal yard is. To use US terms, federal yards are Pearl Harbor, Puget Sound, Norfolk. Private is Electric Boat, Ingalls, IHI, Newport News.

And UFP/StarFleet would have their own as well, spread out across MANY Star Systems.
Remember there were Shipyards outside of Earth/Sol System.
e.g. Antares Ship Yards
Beta Antares Ship Yards
40 Eridani A StarFleet Construction Yards

 

[Shik]

....No. By that logic, we'd have NCC-325000 commissioning in 2379, not 3150. There isn't one federal yard per member. That doesn't make any sense, either.

Does anyone have a less fantastical outlook here?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

....No. By that logic, we'd have NCC-325000 commissioning in 2379, not 3150. There isn't one federal yard per member. That doesn't make any sense, either.

Why not, have distributed Manufacturing & Supply Chains.

Having everything in one Star System is a recipe for disaster.

Does anyone have a less fantastical outlook here?

It's called "Reusing NCC-#'s".

There are many #'s that get reused / assigned.

The USS Enterprise - is one of them, it just happens to keep the Ship Name with the NCC #.

So at any given time, the maximum # would be limited.

Especially given how many ships were lost during the Dominion War.

Treat the NCC-# system as a license plate #, but it can be reassigned once the current vessel is destroyed/missing/de-commissioned.

 

[Shik]

Why not, have distributed Manufacturing & Supply Chains.

Having everything in one Star System is a recipe for disaster

I agree with the latter. You can have the former without it being literally everywhere, which we know isn't the case.

It's called "Reusing NCC-#'s".

This is such an awful idea, I can't even begin to tell you. The administrative nightmare it would be...

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I agree with the latter. You can have the former without it being literally everywhere, which we know isn't the case.

Look at Earth's Automobile Manufacturing, we can have it distributed in MANY places.

Remember, the UFP is literally spread across over 1,000 worlds and countless colonies.

Spoiler: Size of UFP Territory post USS Voyager's return.

Spoiler: Size of UFP Territory relative to how large our Galaxy is.

But even the UFP is a 'Small Speck' in the larger context of our Milky Way Galaxy, much less the wider Universe.

Spoiler: The Thin Disk section of the Milky Way is ~ 100,000 ly in Diameter

NOTE: The image is "Not to Scale", it's illustrative of the larger Astronomical constructs of our Milky Way Galaxy and probably most other Galaxies.

Given that Space is 3D:

Spoiler: And we can use Cartessian Coordinates to map our Galaxy

You really need to map space in 3D using the simplest Coordinate System that most people can easily grasp. 3D Cartesian Coordinates.

The size of our Milky Way Galaxy is pretty large once you factor in all the larger structures.

Spoiler: Our Milky Way Galaxy is ALOT bigger than most people think.

The 100,000 ly is only talking about the "Thin Disk" section, there is FAR more to the Milky Way Galaxy than most people think.

Spoiler: That's not even counting all the baby Satelite Galaxies near us.

Space is HUGE.

This is such an awful idea, I can't even begin to tell you. The administrative nightmare it would be...

Many States have License Plates that transfer with the owner to a new vehicle. So if it can be done at the DMV level, I'm sure StarFleet / UFP can figure it out.

That's why Databases exist.

 

[Shik]

Okay, well, we'll put all that way, way, WAY out on the fringe of the spectrum.

Next option, please.

 

[Unicron]

The simplest numerical answer would be, whatever suits the plot. Somewhat more realistically, I can see a number of major fleet yards like Utopia Plantia. When you mention the original list, was it primarily a list of companies responsible for the contracts to build a class and overseeing the work, or the specific yards and locations where the construction would take place?

I'm curious because I know a few fanon sources that list some of each, with Jackill giving a list of the layout for all of the major fleet yards in terms of which dry dock classes each uses (but this also being late 23rd century/turn of 24th century). None of them seem to have the larger number you mention, even combined, but I admit I might be wrong on that.

FASA and SotSF operated from the assumption that individual yards and companies would bid for contracts, which would then be awarded by Starfleet Command. FASA also mentioned the Klingons and Romulans each having several major fleet bases.

 

[Shik]

When you mention the original list, was it primarily a list of companies responsible for the contracts to build a class and overseeing the work, or the specific yards and locations where the construction would take place?

It was both, as this is/will be. I made it mainly to keep track of things when I built models, because I'd mock up little dedication plaques for the stands. It's been 20 years since I built anything, & now I want it for writing purposes, in this case as a supplementary article for my project.

The way I see things is that Starfleet construction is heavily federalized. Ships are created & built at any number of yards deep within the core of the Federation (which is why we keep hearing San Francisco & Utopia Planitia). For example, let's say Akira first starts production at those two yards & maybe one other (call it 40 Eridani A). After a few years & enough production vessels where the weirdness has been worked out, it's moved and/or expanded to other production facilities (61 Cygni, Merak II, Starbase 134, etc.)

FASA and SotSF operated from the assumption that individual yards and companies would bid for contracts, which would then be awarded by Starfleet Command.

See, that's how things work in the US; there hasn't been any federal naval construction in decades. All new builds are done by private companies with a lot of specialization. Huntingdon Ingalls handles frigates & destroyers, subs are split twixt Newport News & Electric Boat, & carriers are the exclusive province of Newport News. By contrast, you have the old Soviet system (& kind of the current Russian one) where everything was federalized. There's also the Chinese way, in which like 5-8 shipyards were consolidated under the umbrella of the China State Shipbuilding Corporation, which is a state-owned "private" company that handles all military contracts through its various divisions.

That being said, my take on private firms in the Federation is that some time after expanded federal production, maybe within 3-5 years, that's when they let the contracts out to the private firms to take up the mass of production. Like, maybe 60-70% of a class would be built privately, but when you broke down the individual percentages by yard allocation, Starfleet would still be the minority-majority producer. Private yards would also be handling overflow maintenance & repair work, keeping the business & field alive while also not depending solely on Starfleet to feed itself.

I'm curious because I know a few fanon sources that list some of each, with Jackill giving a list of the layout for all of the major fleet yards in terms of which dry dock classes each uses (but this also being late 23rd century/turn of 24th century). None of them seem to have the larger number you mention, even combined, but I admit I might be wrong on that.

My feel is that there's probably shipyards complexes orbiting most worlds (as Kamen stated), but they are not all federal ones. Some of the biggest companies probably have their own (relatively smaller) orbital works, but most probably lease space from existing federal and/or commercial docks to do the work. So like, say, Electric Boat has yards at Deneva & Boreal III, but at the former they're probably leasing space at the Deneva Starfleet Assembly Facility, & at the latter renting it from the commercial yards in geosynchrous orbit over the Killingusaaq Nutaaq settelement.

I've been mining all sources for yards, canon & fandom; I can pare things down afterwards, which is what prompted the original question. FASA had 16 total yards in the Federation in the 2280s, but like 4 of them were commercial only. They added at least 3 in the TNG stuff. SotSF has a bunch of good ones I've used, plus ones I can remember from my own creation in the old list. The other thing, though, is that for the most part fandom has taken a "small fleet" stance: a lot of classes with 5 or 10 ships in them, with something like Belknap with its 20-odd units being a large production run. With that mindset, you wouldn't need or want more than a handful of military producers.

Currently, I have 126 listed. Of those, 58 are federal & 68 are private. Of those 68, 11 companies have multiple yards, with 4 of them having more than 3 locations each. As Kamen said, space is huge, & there's always going to be a need for yards in the fringes, but how much is too much? I can't decide if there should be more federal ones (because they run the show), more private (because proliferation of commerce), or a roughly equal number. Also, do I differentiate between actual construction yards & ones ostensibly just for upkeep? Every starbase can do maintenance, but Starbase 134 is known to build ships as is Earth Station McKinley. Are the Proxima Maintenance Yards just for maintenance, or do they build, too?

 

[Ithekro]

The Federation might have a lot of yards, but not all of them may be capable (or perhaps certified) to build Starfleet ships. Starfleet might have a few fleetyards that have many docks and build sites on the planet's surface (like Mars), but most others would be tiny single drydock or up to a Spacedock/Starbase level facility. Some might only be capable of refits rather than new construction (largely due to demand more so than capability). Other might not have the supply chains for some of the more specialized equipment on Starfleet ships (high grade sensors, phaser arrays). Some might be able to build a few starships a year, while others can build dozens if not a hundred starships a year.

All we know is that Starfleet expanded from what seems like relatively low production numbers in the mid-23rd century, to higher numbers by the mid-24th century. Just by going of the hull numbers. Starfleet added up to 30,000 starships between 2360 and 2400.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

As Kamen said, space is huge, & there's always going to be a need for yards in the fringes, but how much is too much?

There's no such thing as "Too Much".

For Scale Reference:
97 million cars are made in 1 year world wide on Earth in the modern day, that's thanks largely due to automated factories.
Large Airliner sized Aircraft Manufacturing is in the 3-Digit Range per Year, a good chunk of that is human labor and not automated.

We saw how Shuttles were produced by Mechanical Arms & Replicators in ST:Prodigy.
Those can be easily mass Produced like Cars and distributed as needed to their intended Parent Vessels/StarBase

We see how a Larger Alien Repair Station in ENT can quickly fix a StarShip in days.

Now imagine a large Automated Manufacturing Facilities with Automated Arms / Work Bees / Droids like the A500 series that are updated to not be hacked and cause a rebellion like what Commodore Oh did.
Imagine how many ships we can crank out, the limiting factor will be how many Bi-PaB Sentient People can we get to help crew the vessels.

I can't decide if there should be more federal ones (because they run the show), more private (because proliferation of commerce), or a roughly equal number. Also, do I differentiate between actual construction yards & ones ostensibly just for upkeep? Every starbase can do maintenance, but Starbase 134 is known to build ships as is Earth Station McKinley. Are the Proxima Maintenance Yards just for maintenance, or do they build, too?

There should be more private ones, but many Federal ones distributed across UFP space.

You don't want another Utopia Planetia incident that cripples StarFleet StarShip production due to the Synth Rebellion.

They put TOO many eggs in one basket by having too large of a volume/% of StarFleet Ship manufacturing centered around one Ship Yard.

Private should remain for the "Private Sector". The "Private Sector" should have even more ships than StarFleet given the commoditization of Space Travel for regular folks.

Repair/Refit should be done at StarBases in the safety of the Garage/Hanger Bays.

 

[Tomalak]

It's called "Reusing NCC-#'s".

There are many #'s that get reused / assigned.

The USS Enterprise - is one of them, it just happens to keep the Ship Name with the NCC #.

So at any given time, the maximum # would be limited.

Especially given how many ships were lost during the Dominion War.

Treat the NCC-# system as a license plate #, but it can be reassigned once the current vessel is destroyed/missing/de-commissioned.

It's not an unreasonable idea, but not one that is really supported on screen. Starfleet tends to avoid directly reusing numbers for different ships.

The one example that does come to mind is the second Defiant, which appeared to have the same number due to VFX reuse. Sisko cites "special dispensation" for the name (and presumably number) change, suggesting this isn't a routine occurrence. The dedication plaque continued to call it "USS Sao Paulo NCC-75633".

The example you cite - the Enterprise - is evidence contrary to your theory, because Starfleet specifically chose to add a suffix letter to make it distinct, rather than simply reuse NCC-1701 for Kirk's second Enterprise.

This is followed in more recent shows with the Titan-A, Voyager-A, and the various ships in Discovery's far-future, suggesting a policy change to make the use of the suffix more common.

Maybe the Dominion War was part of this shift - lots of heroic ships were lost, and Starfleet chose to honour them too.

There's also the Titan and Discovery precedents that muddy the waters somewhat, giving ostensible "refits" of the same ship a suffix letter.

Either way, they're going out of their way *not* to reuse numbers. But it is a reason why considering the highest registry number as an absolute upper limit of ships built post-Dominion War isn't very helpful.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I tend to treat registry numbers as fairly "face value" for the most part, except where a specific registry is clearly nonsensical (I prefer the semi-canon NX-74913 over the slightly more canon NX-59650 for MiaB's USS Prometheus for instance).

Personally, if I wanted to make a bit more room for extra starships, particularly once runabouts got their own registries, I've always been partial to the idea of not using NCC for all production builds:

NAR: Runabouts and Vessels designed primarily for civilian purposes (surveyors, transports, tugs, couriers)
NCC*: Most multi-role or combat starships (roughly frigates, destroyers and light cruisers in modern terms)
NCO: Large to Super-Large multi-role or combat starships, particularly those intended to function as flagship or diplomatic venues at need (mostly equivalent to heavy/large cruisers and battlecruisers but could also include carriers, landing vessels and command ships)

* This category could also be further split, but the details aren't important yet.

 

[Tomalak]

Yes, NAR makes sense for Federation-owned (i.e. government jurisdiction) ships that aren't Starfleet.

We've seen a few science ships e.g. the Raven, Vico and the Eleos XII. I wonder if they are operated by UESPA?

 

[David cgc]

Unfortunately, it seems like NCCs, NXes, and NARs all pull from the same pool (based on the Excelsior and La Sirena). On the other hand, that could make sense, since the candidates for "What NCC means" tend toward the generic ("Navel Construction Contract" or "Navigational Contact Code," for instance), so it could be that all Starfleet ships (and certain civilian Federation-registered ships) have a Navigational Contact Code, but that boilerplate header can be replaced/supplemented with a more specific "experimental" or "auxiliary" header. They're all NCC numbers, it's just that some have a little extra information attached.

 

[Shik]

Yeah, okay, but hull number fuckery isn't relevant here, so could that be tabled please & save that eternal argument for another post?

The Federation might have a lot of yards, but not all of them may be capable (or perhaps certified) to build Starfleet ships. Starfleet might have a few fleetyards that have many docks and build sites on the planet's surface (like Mars), but most others would be tiny single drydock or up to a Spacedock/Starbase level facility. Some might only be capable of refits rather than new construction (largely due to demand more so than capability). Other might not have the supply chains for some of the more specialized equipment on Starfleet ships (high grade sensors, phaser arrays). Some might be able to build a few starships a year, while others can build dozens if not a hundred starships a year.

Thank you for reiterating what I have stated previously.

For Scale Reference:
97 million cars are made in 1 year world wide on Earth in the modern day, that's thanks largely due to automated factories.
Large Airliner sized Aircraft Manufacturing is in the 3-Digit Range per Year, a good chunk of that is human labor and not automated.

Starships are not cars, nor are they aircraft. You need to drop all that because none of it is relevant.

We saw how Shuttles were produced by Mechanical Arms & Replicators in ST:Prodigy.
Those can be easily mass Produced like Cars and distributed as needed to their intended Parent Vessels/StarBase

You don't want another Utopia Planetia incident that cripples StarFleet StarShip production due to the Synth Rebellion.

Shuttles are not part of this. Nothing past 2005 is relevant to what I'm working with (please don't anyone start with that argument, either).

There should be more private ones, but many Federal ones distributed across UFP space.

I agree, but:

Private should remain for the "Private Sector". The "Private Sector" should have even more ships than StarFleet given the commoditization of Space Travel for regular folks.

I don't care about commercial/civilian ships or yards. I'm not counting them. The only private firms I'm working with are ones that can/do handle Starfleet contracts. Whether they also have a hand in non-Starfleet construction—be it commercial, civilian, for another federal agency, or for a planetary militia—is irrelevant to the task at hand.

So, to review:

• How many federal yards would be considered enough, given the ever-expanding nature of the Federation some 30 years past Nemesis (in a universe that does not follow the pre-Disco novelverse or the current Picard version of it)?
• Would there be more federal yards than private companies? Why or why not? Currently, I have 58 federal yards & 28 private companies (with a total of 68 locations among them).
• Do I differentiate between yards doing actual construction (San Fran, Utopia) & ones that are more maintenance facilities (Proxima, major starbases)?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, to review:

• How many federal yards would be considered enough, given the ever-expanding nature of the Federation some 30 years past Nemesis (in a universe that does not follow the pre-Disco novelverse or the current Picard version of it)?

If you're discarding current Canon material, then how many ships do you plan on having active in all of StarFleet since you're 30 years post Nemesis, but not including current knowledge? History could go on a different course.

Federation Fleet - Notes

www.ditl.org

There estimates were StarFleet had 100 New ships per Year during the Pre-Dominion Contact with a Standing By Fleet of 8,000 Capital Ships
By the Star of the Dominion War, StarFleet had 8,726 ships & a Yearly Production of 300 Capital Ships.

When hostilities ceased Starfleet had lost a total of 5,800 capital ships, nearly 60% of the total operated during the period. Fatalities totalled 1.6 million personnel, not including those lost on starbases or in ground combat. The post-war fleet numbers only 4,116 ships, and although ship production is highly unlikely to remain at its wartime level it is probable that it will continue at a higher than normal rate until the fleet has returned to something approaching normality.

They're claiming that StarFleet Post Dominion would have ~10,000 Ships in it's Active Standing Fleet.

It can obviously grow larger to act as a deterrance against any potential future invasions or Dominion Fleet from the other side of the Worm Hole popping out.

How big do you want "Your StarFleet" to become?

How fast do you want each ShipYard to be in terms of manufacturing and scale.
Do you want Large Mega ShipYards like Utopia Planetia?

Do you want more Distributed ShipYards spread about with lower output like Boeing IRL with their AirlLiners?

• Would there be more federal yards than private companies? Why or why not? Currently, I have 58 federal yards & 28 private companies (with a total of 68 locations among them).

Private Economy is FAR larger than Federal Economies that focus on StarFleet & Government needed vessels.

Private Yards would easily out number Federal Yards.

Federal Yards would generally be larger in scope but still have decent amount of them spread about for distribution of manufacturing.

Space Travel Commoditization allows more common folks to travel space in style, luxury, etc.

And you have to remember that each Species could have Billions to Trillions of population.
And there are over 150 Member Species in the UFP.

• Do I differentiate between yards doing actual construction (San Fran, Utopia) & ones that are more maintenance facilities (Proxima, major starbases)?

Manufacturing Yards are dedicated facilities that specialize in Production from Raw Materials to final Vessel.

Repair / Maintenance would be StarBases and other Major Facilities within a Star System.

Think of StarBase 1 and it's massive hanger as a giant StarShip Orbital repair garage & Armed Base.

You saw plenty of ships in repair in one of those massive StarBases within it's precious Garage/Hangers.

That includes the USS Cerritos after getting beaten down and heavily damaged multiple times.

 

[CaptChris42]

....No. By that logic, we'd have NCC-325000 commissioning in 2379, not 3150. There isn't one federal yard per member. That doesn't make any sense, either.

Does anyone have a less fantastical outlook here?

Not all ships will have an NCC prefix - I'm a pretty firm believer in that.
There'll also be cargo and science and passenger craft and even private vessels.

So a lot could be built. Discovery even mentioned the total estimated ships at one point, in season 2 I believe.

As for between 2333 and 2373, I often go with a rough estimate of between 450 and 730 full starships with an NCC prefix, being launched per year - if in varying batches, and not always chronologically.