Can someone tell me if when the starship Odyssey was attacked by the Jem'Hadar while trying to rescue Sisko & his group, was the Odyssey able to damage or destroy any of the Jem'Hadar ships?
JDW
JDW
Federation Starship Phasers & Jem'Hadar ships?
- Thread starter James Wright
- Start date
I just watched the whole scene again. From what is show on screen no Jem'Hadar fighters were destroyed, apart from the ship that rammed the Odyssey. Although the Odyssey did score three direct hits, with two of those on a fighters' nacelle, there was no exterior damage. Of course there's no way to know how much damage those hits actually caused.
The only apparent damage was a glowing piece of hull after a pointblank phaser shot from one of the Runabouts.
The Odyssey was a Galaxy class starship armed with type 10 phaser arrays, you'd think the Odyssey would've taken the Jem'Hadar attack ships apart, why didn't she?
JDW
JDW
...dramatic effect
Apart from the real world reason obviously being dramatic effect as Mister_Atoz pointed out we can only theorize what the in-universe reason might be.
Assuming what we see of the battle is in real-time only after the first shots were fired the Odyssey's first officer reports there's casualty reports from several decks and they have a plasma leak in their port nacelle. And this was only the first few seconds during the battle.
Three minutes later the first officer reports that their tactical control systems are down. And they lost power to phasers. It's obvious they were being blown to pieces.
Their situation is quite similar to the Enterprise-D in Generations versus the D-12 Bird of Prey. Their adversary was also able to shoot through their shields and quickly one by one of their systems was taken offline. From what we saw of the Enterprise they only fired phasers once (as far as I can remember) and that was their only return fire during the entire battle (apart from that final torpedo). It isn't hard to imagine that the BOP's primary targets, apart from the bridge and warp core, were the weapons or perhaps their "tactical control systems" like on the Odyssey.
Since the Odyssey was against three more heavily armed opponents I don't find it surprising they were only able to fire those few shots.
Another reason might be that the Dominion was a new enemy. So obviously Starfleet wasn't familiar with their tactics and technology. Since the Jem'Hadar's phased polaron beams later weren't able to penetrate Federation shields perhaps after some research Starfleet also improved their weapons against the Dominion. It could be the Odyssey just wasn't able to damage the attack ships because they didn't have their phasers at a certain setting which would have been more effective. Again, I'm just theorizing here.
Plecostomus
Commodore
At that point the Jem'Hadar were fairly resistant to phasers and the Federation shields were shit against Jem'Hadar weapons. In order to win a war you have to reverse the enemy advantage and gain your own via R&D work... which at this point hadn't even begun.
With settlements being established in the Gamma Quadrant by the Federation don't you think the Federation might've known of the existance of the Dominion, didn't they rule the Gamma Quadrant?
Just as an after thought, if the Breen had fought against the Dominion, who would have won?
JDW
Just as an after thought, if the Breen had fought against the Dominion, who would have won?
JDW
It was Bajor who set up a settlement in the Gamma Quadrant. The Federation didn't really seem all that interesting in moving its influence into that quadrant and were just happy to send a few ships to just have a look around.
The Federation had heard of the Dominion but the Dominion before that made no efforts to contact the Federation. Through the Ferengi and their trade contacts they probably knew roughly what area of space the Dominion controlled and avoided it given most of the rumours about the Dominion were less then favourable.
As for the Odyssey I think the captain was just overconfident. He was in the pride of the Federation fleet and a ship that was around six times the size of the attack ships. He might have thought that the presence of a Galaxy class would intimidate the enemy and I pretty sure he never considered that they would be able to immediately bypass his shields.
Why would the skipper's confidence feature into this? It's not as if Keogh held back his fire or anything: IIRC, he actually fired the first shot, right after it became obvious the three hostiles were on an attack run. Or at least his was the second shot in the fight.
Once the shooting began, it was obvious that technology was deciding the outcome of the game. We know the battle lasted for at least ten minutes, because that's how much time Keogh promised to give to O'Brien for his Sisko and Quark extraction mission. At one point, he gives "five more minutes", but whether that's "the second half of the original ten" or "five in addition to ten", we can't really tell. During that time, certainly more shots were fired by both sides than the ones we saw on screen, as phasers are said to go down only after Sisko has been rescued. But it also seems clear that Keogh was not staying behind one extra minute unless absolutely necessary. No "overconfidence" there IMHO... As Keogh said, by rescuing Sisko, they "got what they came for", and didn't overstay their welcome. So he wasn't lying about Sisko's return being his first priority; if there was any power projection / intimidation mission there, he certainly realized it wasn't going to pan out!
Timo Saloniemi
Once the shooting began, it was obvious that technology was deciding the outcome of the game. We know the battle lasted for at least ten minutes, because that's how much time Keogh promised to give to O'Brien for his Sisko and Quark extraction mission. At one point, he gives "five more minutes", but whether that's "the second half of the original ten" or "five in addition to ten", we can't really tell. During that time, certainly more shots were fired by both sides than the ones we saw on screen, as phasers are said to go down only after Sisko has been rescued. But it also seems clear that Keogh was not staying behind one extra minute unless absolutely necessary. No "overconfidence" there IMHO... As Keogh said, by rescuing Sisko, they "got what they came for", and didn't overstay their welcome. So he wasn't lying about Sisko's return being his first priority; if there was any power projection / intimidation mission there, he certainly realized it wasn't going to pan out!
Timo Saloniemi
Of course he wasn't overconfident after realising the Jem'Hadar could penetrate his shields at will. Keogh originally didn't want anybody to come with him to the Gamma Quadrant, which might suggest he believed his ship would be able to deal with anything he found there.
We've seen Galaxy's unload a dozen torps and half a dozen phaser blasts in about 5 seconds flat in I think it was BoBW. In all rights the Odyssey should have destroyed at least one of those attack ships before they could fire back.
Instead the Jem'Hadar to get point blank range fire, getting at least 4 shots off before the Odyssey replies. As for the length of the battle Keogh gives Miles 10 minutes about 5 seconds before the Jem'Hadar enter range and then 30 seconds he says, "5 more minutes". That seems to suggest that Keogh might have halved the time he originally gave.
That said the Odyssey might have damaged or destroyed one or two attack ships because I don't remember seeing more then one attack ship in any of the battle scenes after their first run on the Odyssey. Also how do you explain the Jem'Hadar not pursuing the runabouts after the Odyssey is gone? Sure they want Eris to go to DS9 but that doesn't mean they can't destroy the other two runabouts or at least give them a little chase.
We've seen Galaxy's unload a dozen torps and half a dozen phaser blasts in about 5 seconds flat in I think it was BoBW. In all rights the Odyssey should have destroyed at least one of those attack ships before they could fire back.
Instead the Jem'Hadar to get point blank range fire, getting at least 4 shots off before the Odyssey replies. As for the length of the battle Keogh gives Miles 10 minutes about 5 seconds before the Jem'Hadar enter range and then 30 seconds he says, "5 more minutes". That seems to suggest that Keogh might have halved the time he originally gave.
That said the Odyssey might have damaged or destroyed one or two attack ships because I don't remember seeing more then one attack ship in any of the battle scenes after their first run on the Odyssey. Also how do you explain the Jem'Hadar not pursuing the runabouts after the Odyssey is gone? Sure they want Eris to go to DS9 but that doesn't mean they can't destroy the other two runabouts or at least give them a little chase.
All Seeing Eye
Admiral
We've seen how powerful phasers are and a Galaxy class is a pretty powerful ship, just four hits from the Defiant pulse phasers can take out a Jem'Hadar Bug ship and in later episodes when the Cardassians turn on the Dominion the Galor class ships take down bug ships with one hit and yet the bug ships that attacked the Odyssey took several direct poundings from the Odysseys phasers and suffered zero hull damage, in fact they didn't appear to receive any damage at all.
It was purely shit writing, the Odyssey should have at least been shown to take down 2 Jem'Hadar ships at which point the third one decides to make a suicide run, if the episode had gone like that not only would it have been easier to accept but we'd still have been aware of the Dominions power and their willingness to make suicide attacks. I mean it wasnt just the Odyssey attacking them but runabouts too and yet they took hardly any damage at all, which contradicts later episodes. If i'm honest the Odyssey episode gets me mad.
It was purely shit writing, the Odyssey should have at least been shown to take down 2 Jem'Hadar ships at which point the third one decides to make a suicide run, if the episode had gone like that not only would it have been easier to accept but we'd still have been aware of the Dominions power and their willingness to make suicide attacks. I mean it wasnt just the Odyssey attacking them but runabouts too and yet they took hardly any damage at all, which contradicts later episodes. If i'm honest the Odyssey episode gets me mad.
I agree that the attack on Dax's runabout made no sense. They were causing serious damage to the Odyssey immediately with damage reports from several decks but two direct hits to the rear of the runabout should have tore the back end off.
I don't remember the Odyssey hitting any of the attack ships more then once, in fact I think we only see it fire three times and possibly it was all at different targets. Some times I wonder if Starfleet gives each captain a quota on how often they are allowed to fire their weapons...it always seems that they fire once or twice and if nothing immediately explodes they give up!
The only thing I don't like about the battle is the ramming scene since the Odyssey is clearly static when it is rammed. It just looks weird. Also with todays cool CGI explosions you have to admit the explosion doesn't look as cool anymore. If they ever remaster DS9 I hope they make the Odyssey appear to be in motion, CGI up that big explosion and add the runabouts shattering from the ship since they were in close formation in the previous shot.
I don't remember the Odyssey hitting any of the attack ships more then once, in fact I think we only see it fire three times and possibly it was all at different targets. Some times I wonder if Starfleet gives each captain a quota on how often they are allowed to fire their weapons...it always seems that they fire once or twice and if nothing immediately explodes they give up!
The only thing I don't like about the battle is the ramming scene since the Odyssey is clearly static when it is rammed. It just looks weird. Also with todays cool CGI explosions you have to admit the explosion doesn't look as cool anymore. If they ever remaster DS9 I hope they make the Odyssey appear to be in motion, CGI up that big explosion and add the runabouts shattering from the ship since they were in close formation in the previous shot.
About the phasers, the Defiant is armed with pulse cannons, Klingon Birds of Prey are armed with pulse disrupters, each of these ships can put a lot of fire on a target such as a Jem'Hadar attack ship taking the target out in a few bursts.
Could larger ships modify their phasers to fire bursts or were they stuck with firing phaser beams?
JDW
Could larger ships modify their phasers to fire bursts or were they stuck with firing phaser beams?
JDW
Or then it just suggests he thought the runabouts would be of no help and possible hindrance there. He may have been correct on that.
We should remember that in the allocated time, O'Brien does achieve his goal. Which includes repairing the torn-down runabout controls, flying to the planet, locating Sisko and Quark and their new friend, and flying back to Keogh. I'm not sure five minutes would cut it.
Very good point there! Of course, Sisko could have seen two Jemmie ships retreat after the Odyssey got blown up, and considered that a further example of Dominion psychological warfare: showing contempt of the enemy after achieving a victory.
Yet another example of psych warfare? Only love-pat those enemies that pose no threat, but pound to death the one that is a creditable opponent - then leave the former to escape and spread word of the loss of the latter. Pretty much the same thing the Changeling suggests at Chin'toka after the joint Dominion-Breen victory. And perhaps the standard Dominion modus operandi?
Possibly - but I'm not convinced pulses are better than continuous beams. The pulses of the Defiant were designed to defeat the Borg, which may mean that their operating principle is one of changing the frequency between each pulse. This might prove surprisingly effective against the Jemmies if at least one of those pulses randomly worked against Dominion-style shields...
Timo Saloniemi
No sure if they really hindered the Odyssey. They did harass the attack ships and provided a distraction, as well as picking up Sisko and co.
They were also meant to be equipped with extra photon torpedo banks, though we don't see one torpedo fly in the battle.
Also notice that we have one of the few times a phaser beam misses a target during the battle. Kira manages to miss a attack ship at point blank range that is flying in a straight line...
The runabout wasn't really damaged, just lacking an autopilot. Plus how far could Jake and Nog get from the planet at impulse? Jake was pretty nervous about flying at sublight just before help arrived so I can't see him going at full impulse. So it is possible that it could have only taken around five minutes.
It can't be that standard if Weyoun's first thought was to immediately order the Jem'Hadar to start destroying the escape pods. But that might just be crazy Weyoun, always wanting to wipe out vast numbers of people, he wanted to wipe out the population of Earth and he was also the person who suggested that the Founder order her troops to kill civilians at the end of the war...what a scamp!
Plus the only ship of importance was the one Miles was flying since it had Eris. Destroying one or both of the other runabouts shouldn't really matter to the Dominion at all.
Pulse phasers were meant to work better against shields then ordinary phasers, though they didn't seem to have as great a range. (according to MA)
Also one of its greatest advantages would be rate of fire. The Defiant's cannons seemed to be about to fire nearly half a dozen times in the same time it took a larger ship like the Galaxy to fire once. Which as a weapon against the Borg makes sense since you would want to hit them as many timesas possible before they adapted to that frequency.
Agreed on the other stuff, not quite on pulse phasers delivering more destruction. Would ten half-second pulses beat a single, sustained ten-second beam? I'd argue the beam would be twice as potent...
Today, guns go for high rate of fire when there is a major chance of missing (such as in anti-aircraft applications or with submachine guns). They pay the price of being so much weaker per individual shot than their single-shot equivalents, as rapid-fire mechanisms cannot handle heavy ammunition.
In Trek, both the big and the small guns seem to hit pretty accurately, even though this ep indeed shows a rare case of a small gun completely missing. The rapid-fire Defiant weapons appear to have poor accuracy in comparison, so the rationale for their use has to lie elsewhere.
It could be that just the front end of a phaser shot counts, making it reasonable to fire several short pulses. But then why do big ships deliberately sustain their beams for more than a second whenever they can (even though we witness them doing half-second beams in other situations)? Why did Kirk never pulse his guns against a fixed installation, but instead kept a single solid beam targeted at the planetside enemy of the week for minutes at an end?
Timo Saloniemi
Today, guns go for high rate of fire when there is a major chance of missing (such as in anti-aircraft applications or with submachine guns). They pay the price of being so much weaker per individual shot than their single-shot equivalents, as rapid-fire mechanisms cannot handle heavy ammunition.
In Trek, both the big and the small guns seem to hit pretty accurately, even though this ep indeed shows a rare case of a small gun completely missing. The rapid-fire Defiant weapons appear to have poor accuracy in comparison, so the rationale for their use has to lie elsewhere.
It could be that just the front end of a phaser shot counts, making it reasonable to fire several short pulses. But then why do big ships deliberately sustain their beams for more than a second whenever they can (even though we witness them doing half-second beams in other situations)? Why did Kirk never pulse his guns against a fixed installation, but instead kept a single solid beam targeted at the planetside enemy of the week for minutes at an end?
Timo Saloniemi
This was a staged event that the Dominion put on to scare the living jeebies out of the federation, Those ships had better than average shield generators and weapons.
Wouldn't put this past the Dominion. Also there culd have been sabotage from a changteling aboard the odyssey who beamed away before the one shipp rammed the ship.
The runabout faired quite well. They could have said, "Avoid damaging the runabout too much, we have a spy aboard it."
Wouldn't put this past the Dominion. Also there culd have been sabotage from a changteling aboard the odyssey who beamed away before the one shipp rammed the ship.
The runabout faired quite well. They could have said, "Avoid damaging the runabout too much, we have a spy aboard it."
...And the instructions would certainly also mention "Avoid damaging any of the runabouts, since we don't trust that you can tell them apart from each other".
And yeah, there'd probably be a Changeling aboard the Odyssey. Quite possibly there were several on DS9 at the time, and one would have boarded any starship Starfleet decided to send as a response to the crisis.
Timo Saloniemi
And yeah, there'd probably be a Changeling aboard the Odyssey. Quite possibly there were several on DS9 at the time, and one would have boarded any starship Starfleet decided to send as a response to the crisis.
Timo Saloniemi
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