I‘m just rewatching season 4, episode 7 „Starship Down“, and I came upon Chief O‘Brien telling Worf that the engineers on the Defiant are no bridge officers: „They are engineers. They haven‘t been to Starfleet Academy.“ I am confused, I always assumed that all Starfleet personell must attend the academy, no matter what department they will choose. What are your thoughts on that?
Engineers not on Starfleet Academy?
- Thread starter ChrisRBee
- Start date
I think this is a debate that has been thrown around a lot without any real answer. I am in the camp that believes that the Academy is the 4+ year officer-training school with a wide area of education. You get training in all basic fields, but with a concentration in something. But with that, you can become an officer who has the potential for ranking up and changing departments, or being able to lead departments. Separate, department-specific two-year programs exist that train enlisted crew for jobs like engineers, lab techs, red-shirts, transporter techs, etc. These people just stay in their department for their career or move onto officer training later on if they so choose. This personal headcanon from someone with no knowledge of how real-world military works, but it makes sense for me in the lens of what we see going on in the Trek universe.
The people O'Brien spoke about had never been commissioned as officers - they were enlisted people, the military equivalent of bluecollars, without academic education.
Military academic, that is. Today, there might be Combat Engineers who haven't studied engineering academically and just have a good solid training at getting stuff blown up, cleared out of the way, or erected in two minutes; labeling them non-academic is doable and intuitive. Tomorrow, there might be Combat Engineers who have studied the intricacies of tri-quantum pseudohypomechanics and can build a warp core out of paper clips, so them lacking the military academic training is a bit jarring.
O'Brien himself apparently never attended the Starfleet Academy, as he doesn't hold officer rank or commission; he's just a working stiff. The writers and costumers weren't always absolutely clear on that, but they were clear on the guys O'Brien discusses in "Starship Down".
As for Starfleet Academy, it taking four years may actually be uncommon. In the 2009 movie, we see a supersmart, hypermotivated (and somewhat overage) Kirk do it in three and struggle to emerge Lieutenant with command qualifications - losing to his pal McCoy who has already emerged as Lieutenant Commander some time before. Apparently, the bits that teach you how to be a commissioned officer don't take long, and McCoy had already finished his academic training in medicine before enrolling at the SF Academy. But Kirk wasn't noted for a preexisting degree and probably took very little extra, and still required three years - supposedly because one doesn't get proper command experience in more compressed studies. It may not be all that "academic", and it doesn't reward you with a high starting rank or position (McCoy seems to have gotten the rank while Bashir got his pick of a position), but ultimately it makes you the boss.
Timo Saloniemi
Military academic, that is. Today, there might be Combat Engineers who haven't studied engineering academically and just have a good solid training at getting stuff blown up, cleared out of the way, or erected in two minutes; labeling them non-academic is doable and intuitive. Tomorrow, there might be Combat Engineers who have studied the intricacies of tri-quantum pseudohypomechanics and can build a warp core out of paper clips, so them lacking the military academic training is a bit jarring.
O'Brien himself apparently never attended the Starfleet Academy, as he doesn't hold officer rank or commission; he's just a working stiff. The writers and costumers weren't always absolutely clear on that, but they were clear on the guys O'Brien discusses in "Starship Down".
As for Starfleet Academy, it taking four years may actually be uncommon. In the 2009 movie, we see a supersmart, hypermotivated (and somewhat overage) Kirk do it in three and struggle to emerge Lieutenant with command qualifications - losing to his pal McCoy who has already emerged as Lieutenant Commander some time before. Apparently, the bits that teach you how to be a commissioned officer don't take long, and McCoy had already finished his academic training in medicine before enrolling at the SF Academy. But Kirk wasn't noted for a preexisting degree and probably took very little extra, and still required three years - supposedly because one doesn't get proper command experience in more compressed studies. It may not be all that "academic", and it doesn't reward you with a high starting rank or position (McCoy seems to have gotten the rank while Bashir got his pick of a position), but ultimately it makes you the boss.
Timo Saloniemi
Don't know what movie you're thinking of, but in STXI, Cadet Kirk (time from arrival not prominently mentioned in the movie, so it could be 3 years....) is jumped to XO by Pike, outranking everyone else onboard. At the end of the movie he becomes Captain.
Is it believed that O'brien received a battlefield commission from the Rutledge during the Cardassian war to explain his commissioned rank on the first few seasons of TNG, and then decided to step down back to noncom later on? Or do we just figure this as a long running costuming mistake?
It's gotta be a costuming mistake, and something that really doesn't hold true in-universe - because when Sergey Rodzhenko sees those pips in "Family", he declares with native expertise that they stand for Chief Petty Officer.
There's that one bit of dialogue in "Where Silence Has Lease" where Riker addresses one of two people as "Lieutenant", but he's probably addressing Worf rather than O'Brien anyway. And then there's that bit where O'Brien is the "Tactical Officer" of the Rutledge, but perhaps the position does not require a commission? Chief DiFalco may have been the Helm Officer of the TMP ship for a while.
Timo Saloniemi
Kirk isn't given any rank other than Cadet in dialogue, until the final promotion. But the computer of the Enterprise identifies him as Lieutenant once he gets aboard (see the transporter rescue scene).
XO isn't a rank but a position, and Pike would probably be within his rights to make Kirk superior to everybody else aboard even if he were a civilian, and definitely if he were a Lieutenant. The Captain's word is law, after all, and Picard often placed his junior officers in charge of a ship full of more senior ones in the same manner.
Timo Saloniemi
Because certain shifts had mostly junior officers on the bridge.
...which doesn't make sense, since something important could happen at any time, so there should be an experienced senior officer on duty to handle things properly. Why would there be a "night shift" in space?
Kor
...which doesn't make sense, since something important could happen at any time, so there should be an experienced senior officer on duty to handle things properly. Why would there be a "night shift" in space?
Kor
I always wondered this too! I thought it was amusing that when Data worked the 'night' shift he would turn the lights down. You would think an interstellar spacecraft would be hustling and bustling at any given time, and that night time cycles were dependent on the crew member's own personal schedule. One third of the ship should be on their sleep shift at any given shift of the day!
nuKirk was a Lieutenant, not a Cadet, at the time. (Check out the transporter readout screen when they're beaming Kirk and Sulu up from the drill. It specifically identifies Kirk as a Lieutenant.)
There's only one mistake I can see: Riker calling O'Brien 'lieutenant' in Where Silence Has Lease. At all other times, I just assumed his rank pips were unique, but too small to see clearly.
Although I do like the idea that his service on the Rutledge was done under a battlefield commission.
Enlisted personnel would undergo basic training on some planetary installation and then be trained on the job once assigned to a ship or station. Over time these non-commissioned officers may specialise in one or multiple fields over the course of their career.
O'Brien for example may have started off as a pilot or security guard before being appointed to tactical on the Rutledge, then to discover his talents for engineering during the Cardassian Wars after which he decided to pursue that as a career after being a frontlines soldier.
O'Brien for example may have started off as a pilot or security guard before being appointed to tactical on the Rutledge, then to discover his talents for engineering during the Cardassian Wars after which he decided to pursue that as a career after being a frontlines soldier.
The relevant scene in "Where Silence Has Lease" should be examined in a bit of detail for clarity (again).
Two people are about to beam over to the fake Yamato. Riker is in charge, but defers to Lieutenant Worf's tactical judgement on where exactly to beam. Only after a bit of debate, though, as Worf in this episode is not quite himself (probably some Klingon phase or another again) and is saying silly things. So this is how I see the exchange:
As for junior officers on the bridge, isn't that standard in real navies? Bridge duty is pretty menial, even if it carries great responsibility: juniors and underlings are supposed to mind the shop until something happens, and only then to summon the actual deciders to do the decisions.
Timo Saloniemi
Two people are about to beam over to the fake Yamato. Riker is in charge, but defers to Lieutenant Worf's tactical judgement on where exactly to beam. Only after a bit of debate, though, as Worf in this episode is not quite himself (probably some Klingon phase or another again) and is saying silly things. So this is how I see the exchange:
As for junior officers on the bridge, isn't that standard in real navies? Bridge duty is pretty menial, even if it carries great responsibility: juniors and underlings are supposed to mind the shop until something happens, and only then to summon the actual deciders to do the decisions.
Timo Saloniemi
Weird thing about all this is, that it's said in TNG (I forget where though) that all Starfleet personell have to enter through the Academy and pass the rigorus application and curiculum programs.
O'Brien even says he completed 4 years at the Academy and yet, somehow, someway, he's an NCO?
O'Brien even says he completed 4 years at the Academy and yet, somehow, someway, he's an NCO?
I wonder if there's officer candidate school for enlisted personnel who were educated elsewhere, or Starfleet ROTC available at various schools. There has got to be more than one way to become an officer than having to go to one little academy located all the way on Earth.
Kor
Kor
OTOH, having one physical location that everybody absolutely has to attend at least briefly is a great way to build unity and loyalty in a diverse force...
We have every reason to believe in multiple training facilities all over the Federation. We more or less see one in "Coming of Age", and the Okudagrams hint at more. But a way to graduate to officer rank without going to San Francisco? Not established.
However, lots of ways to graduate if you do go to San Francisco. Seems Janice Rand went from NCO to officer at some point, attaining at least Lt rank (while her attractive redhead sibling was full Commander in ST3). Foreign officers seem to manage the skip into Starfleet, sometimes through exchange programs. Etc.
I don't think we have solid references to O'Brien ever actually attending the Academy. He supposedly wanted to go there to teach after the war ended, but that's about it. Oh, and Bashir in "Tribble-ations" jokes about temporal mechanics courses at the Academy, but it's just a joke.
Timo Saloniemi
We have every reason to believe in multiple training facilities all over the Federation. We more or less see one in "Coming of Age", and the Okudagrams hint at more. But a way to graduate to officer rank without going to San Francisco? Not established.
However, lots of ways to graduate if you do go to San Francisco. Seems Janice Rand went from NCO to officer at some point, attaining at least Lt rank (while her attractive redhead sibling was full Commander in ST3). Foreign officers seem to manage the skip into Starfleet, sometimes through exchange programs. Etc.
I don't think we have solid references to O'Brien ever actually attending the Academy. He supposedly wanted to go there to teach after the war ended, but that's about it. Oh, and Bashir in "Tribble-ations" jokes about temporal mechanics courses at the Academy, but it's just a joke.
Timo Saloniemi
Are you sure? In VOY, Janeway and B'Elanna demonstrated they were knowledeable about Temporal Quantum Mechanics. Janeway previously having been a science officer and B'Elanna, an Academy drop out.
JANEWAY: "Getting there is the easy part, Mister Paris. We need someone who's familiar with the finer points of temporal mechanics, and unless you've been hiding your credentials, I don't think that's you. B'Elanna, you're with me. The Bridge is yours, Commander."
Ah, I see.
I didn't get the context of you saying Bashir was joking about available courses at Starfleet Academy.
My bad.
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