Duras' sword

[t_smitts]

I just rewatched "Reunion" and among the many Klingon-related elements this episode was the Bat'leth, which we get to see in a terrific Worf-Duras duel.

The thing is they gave Duras this more samurai-looking sword. Now, at the time, the episode seem to imply that the Bat'leth was this family heirloom of Worf's, but as we see in later episodes, pretty much every Klingon fights with a Bat'leth. The result is that Duras fighting that sword (which we never saw before and never see again) looks kind of anomalous.

Yeah, I know most people will just say it's in keeping with Duras being this dishonorable "black sheep" Klingon, but still...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The bat'leth is shown to be the most popular Klingon weapon but not the only one. In other episodes we've seen Klingons fight with other weapons such as two curvy daggers.

 

[T'Girl]

Having Duras fight with a conventional sword (instead of a oversized batarang) served to separate him from the Klingon average and perhaps indicate that he didn't follow the teachings of Kahless.

 

[FormerLurker]

Or he may have been attempting to dishonor Worf by not using the family honor-sword to fight the discommendated guy.

 

[Unicron]

KRAD's recent Klingon Art of War suggests it is likely a tik'leth, a one handed long sword with a long tradition in the Imperial Guards. It is lighter than a bat'leth and requires more grace and dexterity to use effectively, but is popular among warriors whose hands are too large to use a smaller blade for dueling purposes.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

I suppose it's possible the bat'leth fell out of favor at some point in Klingon history. We never see it before Worf uses it to kill Duras, however DS9 retcons it to be a modern variant of the sword Kahless used (implying some link between The House of Moag and the ancient House of Kahless). I suppose it is possible Klingons took the bat'leth up en mass after hearing it was the sword Worf used to kill Duras. There were probably songs about it: the renegade Worf avenges his lover, reclaiming his son, and decides who rules an empire with his father's archaic sword.

 

[Timo]

In terms of weapons technology, we could argue that the two-handed bat'leth is a peasant's weapon: it's great for defensive parries even when you have little or no skill, and you can sort of cower behind it while mindlessly pushing forward through the battlefield. To deliver a truly deadly blow, you might need great skill to bring one of the pointy ends to bear, but you can also simply use superior brute force, especially against another unskilled peasant likewise armed.

A two-handed straight sword OTOH has traditionally been the weapon of a skilled professional fighter. Protecting yourself with such a thing is nigh-impossible, but you can do offensive moves the bat'leth is incapable of: brutal swings with enough leverage and momentum to pierce armor, long-ranged thrusts to get past the opponent's defenses, and disarming or otherwise dismembering low swings.

Basically, then, it's a sign of great warrior honor to wield the weapon of that lowly peasant Kahless who forged the blade himself (perhaps because his oppressors didn't allow him to obtain weapons otherwise) and defeated mighty opponents with it. It's a sign of nobility and warrior lineage but perhaps not of great personal courage and devotion to wield a claymore-lookalike. Both weapons require extreme skill to be useful in dueling, while a chaotic medieval-style battlefield will see the two weapons and their bearers serve quite distinct roles in which skill is of a different significance.

Was Mogh a nobleman? Duras' dad Jarod certainly appeared to be, even if the House actually is named after the son (or the great-grandfather?). It would certainly be fitting that Mogh and his House would be tradition-minded idealists who fight with nonoptimal blades because their low-ranking forebears had nothing better at hand, while Jarod would teach his son to wield a weapon of inherent superiority - although apparently not well enough to let him best a true master of an inferior blade.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Oh, and an afterthought:

In "Birthright", we see a Klingon use half a bat'leth as a farming implement. Even though Worf is appalled and says it is intended to be used as a halberd of sorts, we might speculate that the curious blade in fact is a farming instrument, and Kahless forged his famous weapon out of his father's old plow!

(ITWR, halberds, too, are peasant weapons, even though not for the reason of actually being repurposed farming tools, or not exclusively for that reason anyway. And they see symbolic or boastful use as the characteristic weapons of the Swiss Guard or the Landsknechts, even though other weapon types would have been more practical for these types of fighters.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[t_smitts]

In terms of weapons technology, we could argue that the two-handed bat'leth is a peasant's weapon: it's great for defensive parries even when you have little or no skill, and you can sort of cower behind it while mindlessly pushing forward through the battlefield. To deliver a truly deadly blow, you might need great skill to bring one of the pointy ends to bear, but you can also simply use superior brute force, especially against another unskilled peasant likewise armed.

A two-handed straight sword OTOH has traditionally been the weapon of a skilled professional fighter. Protecting yourself with such a thing is nigh-impossible, but you can do offensive moves the bat'leth is incapable of: brutal swings with enough leverage and momentum to pierce armor, long-ranged thrusts to get past the opponent's defenses, and disarming or otherwise dismembering low swings.

Basically, then, it's a sign of great warrior honor to wield the weapon of that lowly peasant Kahless who forged the blade himself (perhaps because his oppressors didn't allow him to obtain weapons otherwise) and defeated mighty opponents with it. It's a sign of nobility and warrior lineage but perhaps not of great personal courage and devotion to wield a claymore-lookalike. Both weapons require extreme skill to be useful in dueling, while a chaotic medieval-style battlefield will see the two weapons and their bearers serve quite distinct roles in which skill is of a different significance.

Was Mogh a nobleman? Duras' dad Jarod certainly appeared to be, even if the House actually is named after the son (or the great-grandfather?). It would certainly be fitting that Mogh and his House would be tradition-minded idealists who fight with nonoptimal blades because their low-ranking forebears had nothing better at hand, while Jarod would teach his son to wield a weapon of inherent superiority - although apparently not well enough to let him best a true master of an inferior blade.

Timo Saloniemi

It was never made totally clear what kind of stature Worf's House had. Certainly not the standing that Duras' family enjoyed during his lifetime. Still, given that Kurn was an officer means that Lorgh must've been up there, and given that Mogh trusted him with his son, I'd say they knew each other well, which means they were probably peers.

It's certainly clear that Duras was no match for Worf, no matter what blade he wielded. Worf had his Starfleet training, and years of calisthenics, whereas Duras was busy being a politician and usually sending others to do his dirty work, as we saw in "Sins of the Father".

But it is curious that no other Klingons use such a sword. Kor was definitely upper class and he used a Bat'eth. Kang and Koloth did as well.

I'm also curious whether this was a sword that Dan Curry or someone else designed for the episode or an existing one that was used. I'm no expert, but it's clearly not a broadsword.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

In terms of weapons technology, we could argue that the two-handed bat'leth is a peasant's weapon: it's great for defensive parries even when you have little or no skill, and you can sort of cower behind it while mindlessly pushing forward through the battlefield. To deliver a truly deadly blow, you might need great skill to bring one of the pointy ends to bear, but you can also simply use superior brute force, especially against another unskilled peasant likewise armed.

A two-handed straight sword OTOH has traditionally been the weapon of a skilled professional fighter. Protecting yourself with such a thing is nigh-impossible, but you can do offensive moves the bat'leth is incapable of: brutal swings with enough leverage and momentum to pierce armor, long-ranged thrusts to get past the opponent's defenses, and disarming or otherwise dismembering low swings.

Basically, then, it's a sign of great warrior honor to wield the weapon of that lowly peasant Kahless who forged the blade himself (perhaps because his oppressors didn't allow him to obtain weapons otherwise) and defeated mighty opponents with it. It's a sign of nobility and warrior lineage but perhaps not of great personal courage and devotion to wield a claymore-lookalike. Both weapons require extreme skill to be useful in dueling, while a chaotic medieval-style battlefield will see the two weapons and their bearers serve quite distinct roles in which skill is of a different significance.

Was Mogh a nobleman? Duras' dad Jarod certainly appeared to be, even if the House actually is named after the son (or the great-grandfather?). It would certainly be fitting that Mogh and his House would be tradition-minded idealists who fight with nonoptimal blades because their low-ranking forebears had nothing better at hand, while Jarod would teach his son to wield a weapon of inherent superiority - although apparently not well enough to let him best a true master of an inferior blade.

Timo Saloniemi

Oh, and an afterthought:

In "Birthright", we see a Klingon use half a bat'leth as a farming implement. Even though Worf is appalled and says it is intended to be used as a halberd of sorts, we might speculate that the curious blade in fact is a farming instrument, and Kahless forged his famous weapon out of his father's old plow!

(ITWR, halberds, too, are peasant weapons, even though not for the reason of actually being repurposed farming tools, or not exclusively for that reason anyway. And they see symbolic or boastful use as the characteristic weapons of the Swiss Guard or the Landsknechts, even though other weapon types would have been more practical for these types of fighters.)

Timo Saloniemi

Your first thread was making me think in terms of the bat'leth as a "farming implement".

A scythe has a curved blade and is used for reaping crops, yet is the weapon of choice of Death™.

The bat'leth would seem fairly easy to use for that application, with a side to side motion Worf demonstrated several times.

 

[LeadHead]

The reason we saw the bat'leth so much was because it became the most iconic Klingon weapon. You see a sword, it could be from virtually any species, you see a bat'leth, you've got Klingons on the horizon.

As for why Duras wasn't using a bat'leth, maybe he was stronger at the sword than the bat'leth. In a battle to the death, are you really going to choose a weapon that you're not very good with?

 

[Avro Arrow]

In "Birthright", we see a Klingon use half a bat'leth as a farming implement. Even though Worf is appalled and says it is intended to be used as a halberd of sorts, we might speculate that the curious blade in fact is a farming instrument, and Kahless forged his famous weapon out of his father's old plow!

Leave it to the Klingons to reverse the whole "swords to ploughshares" thing...

Klingons must have some kind of history with "regular" swords, since Kang's crew all seemed proficient with them in "Day of the Dove". (Although, I guess, so did Kirk's crew... does Starfleet teach sword use at the academy?)

 

[Ithekro]

Well Sulu could fence.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

That sword was only used under Duras...

 

[Timo]

I thought it was under Oveur? But yeah, I could see Starfleet teaching everybody the basics of wielding a blade, and the Klingons doing the same. And both would choose the simplest blade possible, in their own cultural terms: humans would best benefit from learning how to use a single-edged knife or its growth variants like machetes or sabres, because that's what they'd most probably have at hand in their own environment, while Klingons might choose the bat'leth for the same reason, but could equally well choose a simpler, and not so incidentally more humanlike, blade.

Special training would certainly be required for wielding an epee or a claymore, weapons unsuited for "dull infantrymen" or officers busy with more important pursuits. And Sulu did seem to be our go-to character for special training and odd hobbies.

A scythe has a curved blade and is used for reaping crops, yet is the weapon of choice of Death™.

That's the thing that was itching at the back of my skull... (not Death nor a scythe point, but the concept you quote). Obviously not a plow, but a scythe!

We might even argue that it's a double scythe with the sharpened blades at the two ends, while the long forward edge is supposed to be dull - after all, that's how Worf and pals wield the weapon, dealing non-cutting blows with the front edge and impaling their victims with the endpoints. The double scythe makes engineering sense of sorts, and explains some of the oddly complex structure of the weapon.

The absurdly ornamental Sword of Kahless has a different shape where the forward edge is given its own piercing point, perhaps suggesting that the edge itself is useless without such additions. Perhaps Kahless added that tip, but others did not, making do with the two existing ones and seeing the utility of the parrying edge. Or then the Sword of Kahless is simply a forgery, a "relic" like most relics in our world, deliberately made larger than life since realism would appear unrealistic to the devoted.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Or he may have been attempting to dishonor Worf by not using the family honor-sword to fight the discommendated guy.

So to prevent getting Worf's blood on the family bat'leth, Duras picked up a nearby kitchen knife?

 

[Timo]

FWIW, Gowron fought a top-level duel with his dk'tagh in "Redemption II". So the weapon in itself probably isn't all that significant...

...But the choice of a weapon to counter that of the challenger might be significant in establishing the honor status of the challenged. If the challenger approaches with a dk'tagh and you draw your bat'leth, you are a coward and have lost the fight already, even if and especially if you defeat your opponent. (Unless you then put the tip of your bat'leth at the neck of your critic and quote "Nothing is more honorable than victory", of course.) Choosing a tik'leth against a bat'leth might be making a statement of some sort, although we don't know what statement that would be, exactly. "I despise you so much that I will pick this superior weapon and simply slay you, showing you don't deserve a fair fight"? "I defy you by using this light sword that gives you an advantage"? "I choose a blade normally only used against infidels"?

The kitchen knife idea is definitely appealing, but the sword seems to be proudly displayed on the wall, so it is unlikely to be inherently low-status... Perhaps it's loot rather than Klingon hardware? As in, the sword of some famed alien warrior defeated by Duras' forefathers?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Not necessarily a kitchen knife, but yes. Bat'leth literally means 'honor-sword', so Duras using one, especially the family one, like Worf's, gives the challenger more credit and honor, just by default. By facing Worf with a respected, but more likely merely decorative blade, Duras makes it plain he has no respect for Worf, his house, or his abilities. Worf's dishonor only makes Duras' insult that much more grating, if Worf would have lost.

 

[Armored Saint]

Or he may have been attempting to dishonor Worf by not using the family honor-sword to fight the discommendated guy.

It would have been excessively convenient to have a weapon to fight against discommendated guy right on the wall beside a discommendated guy.
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypz5Q-qYgB8[/yt]
Look, Duras acted spontaneously and seriously. So it doesn't fit with the idea of Duras being selective or taking a fork.

 

[Ithekro]

Having the Bat'leth be an honor sword, it might make sense why the Klingons didn't use them against the Federation in the past. They did not consider the humans to be worthy opponents, and thus not deserving the honorable blade. That and the humans will just shoot you.

But by the late 24th century, the Federation has been an ally, and thus considered to be worthy and an honor to kill in battle of they become a foe. Thus by the time of the Battle at Deep Space Nine, the Klingons use Bat'leths more often.