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Spoilers Dune: Prophecy - Spoilers!

From what I can piece together it takes place after Sisterhood of Dune, but a lot of the characters are original to the show as is the plot. Thought the first episode was good enough to keep me tuned it. And the mystery of Desmond Hart is intriguing. No clue who to root for though. :lol: No signs of Mentats or Navigators.
 
For now, I'm going to reserve judgment.

I'm very skeptical that this will pan out to be something I'll like, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. Certainly there were some worthwhile elements.

By the way, we need an actual spoiler thread to discuss this. No way am I going to spoiler code. every. single. post. I make. that discusses the content of the episodes.

I have changed the topic to include Spoilers so spoiler away everybody.

Personally i'm not yet sold but it's the first episode, characters and motivations are introduced and the plot(s) set in motion.

It's far too soon to pass judgement but it isn't a trainwreck (yet) but it's also not a masterpiece ( yet). Looks nice though but i'd expect it to since it's HBO money.

Things i noticed that make me wonder if they'll be adressed:

- Salusa Secundus seems like a normal planet. I wonder if they will show how it's turned into the prison world and recruiting planet/base for the Sardaukar. So far they haven't been mentioned.

- the Voice seems to be a completely new development by Valya, i wonder if she came up on it on her own and how

- it's nice to see that BG are also deadly in hand to hand, something we only know from the books and which they like to keep a secret. Was fully expecting Prana Bindu to be namedropped but it wasn't, oh well - maybe in one of the next episodes.

- was that what Valya experienced at the end of the episode the first signs of Other Memory, maybe similar to what Kasha experienced before she died? They don't speak about it openly in the Sisterhood so maybe it's not a thing yet.

- i find it intriguing that the BG are looking to get one of their own on the Throne and wonder what happens for them to shift their strategy to become the powers behind the throne, i figure it will be one of the central themes of the show

- the Worm did not kill Hart despite him standing in the middle of active Thumpers, very interesting and possibly the only man other than Paul Atreides to survive a direct encounter with Shai Hulud

- nice mystery on who's behind the assassinations of the kid and Kasha and who controls Hart and why


So yeah, not a hugely genre defining start as shows go but enough good and interesting things for me to keep watching as a die hard Dune fan.
 
I found it very pretty, but also confusing. I'm hoping that's because this was all set up and it will make more sense as it goes on.
 
No signs of Mentats or Navigators.
No mention of the Truthsayer drug. No mention or visual depiction of how they're managing interstellar travel ( unfortunately science fiction routinely gets away with this ).

No explicit linkage of spice to the prophetic visions, unless I missed it. Maybe we're supposed to just assume everyone's on spice anyway so it kind of goes without saying? :shrug:

Nice shoutout to arafel. ( Then again, perhaps we're getting the KJA/BH version of whatever's going on there. I suspect there's a case to be made that those two misunderstood FH. )
 
Well I didn't love that, but I didn't exactly hate it either . . . though I was repeatedly annoyed by it.

The cast, art direction, and cinematography are all excellent, though all that means is that enough money was spent to hire people that know their craft. Indeed the show is being carried on the backs of some very good veteran performers, and talented artists.

The weak link is clearly the writing. I could nit-pick the various choices that made me cringe all-day-long, but that it all boils down to is a paucity of subtlety or subtext. It already seems hobbled by the same shallow grasp on the original subject matter that's plagued basically any attempt at extending Dune beyond the words of Frank Herbert. Every character blurts out what they think, what they want, what they intend. It's all out there on the surface with none of the elaborate manoeuvring, double-talk, and obfuscation one might expect. There are no wheels within these wheels.

One can easily see that it's trying very hard to be 'Game of Thrones', but it has neither the wit, nor the grit to pull even that much off (no sand puns intended.) I expect better, when it comes to Dune.

I'll give it another couple episodes to see if things actually get interesting, but I'm already quite sceptical.
 
I wasn't happy they maintained that silliness that Herbert's son wrote about how there were actual "AI Overlords" who conquered Humanity until the Jihad, because Frank's idea wasn't your typical "Terminator future" thing but just about how humans had become too apathetic and let machines do everything for them.

And Hart...does he have some kind of Pyrokinesis powers? Is that how he killed the boy?
 
Speaking as someone who has only read the first novel, all of the outside lore is new to me, so no judgment on how "accurate" it is to Frank's original vision or the newer stuff from Brian and Kevin.

That said, it's pretty enjoyable filled with a great cast. I had forgotten Travis Fimmel was going to be in this until he swaggered his way into the throne room, so that was a lovely surprise. And I was blown away by the magnificent visuals, from the sets and costumes to the sweeping vistas and planet overviews.

However, I also feel like it's trying too hard to be overly complex a la Dune (and yes, Game of Trhones) with a plethora of characters, all with their own little plots and machinations. I appreciate FPAlpha's observations and speculations, but I also agree with Reverend's annoyances regarding the writing.

I'm willing to keep an open mind for now but I worry that it's biting off way more than it can chew.
 
Well I didn't love that, but I didn't exactly hate it either . . . though I was repeatedly annoyed by it.

The cast, art direction, and cinematography are all excellent, though all that means is that enough money was spent to hire people that know their craft. Indeed the show is being carried on the backs of some very good veteran performers, and talented artists.

The weak link is clearly the writing. I could nit-pick the various choices that made me cringe all-day-long, but that it all boils down to is a paucity of subtlety or subtext. It already seems hobbled by the same shallow grasp on the original subject matter that's plagued basically any attempt at extending Dune beyond the words of Frank Herbert. Every character blurts out what they think, what they want, what they intend. It's all out there on the surface with none of the elaborate manoeuvring, double-talk, and obfuscation one might expect. There are no wheels within these wheels.

One can easily see that it's trying very hard to be 'Game of Thrones', but it has neither the wit, nor the grit to pull even that much off (no sand puns intended.) I expect better, when it comes to Dune.

I'll give it another couple episodes to see if things actually get interesting, but I'm already quite sceptical.

Well, it's apparently based on the Waldorf & Stadler series of books so expectations have to be significantly lowered when you have read Frank's books. I have and was not immediately repulsed by it so it worked. They have some top talent in the show, i hope the writing will match the talent and if it does we will get a decent show out of it.

I wasn't happy they maintained that silliness that Herbert's son wrote about how there were actual "AI Overlords" who conquered Humanity until the Jihad, because Frank's idea wasn't your typical "Terminator future" thing but just about how humans had become too apathetic and let machines do everything for them.

And Hart...does he have some kind of Pyrokinesis powers? Is that how he killed the boy?

There is obviously something wrong with him and he is currently the largest mystery of the show. He was in the presence of both Kasha and the boy, both died the same way, he survived a Sandworm attack and obviously is struggling with something, possibly fighting internally against something ( maybe he was conditioned as an assassin by someone).
 
There is obviously something wrong with him and he is currently the largest mystery of the show. He was in the presence of both Kasha and the boy, both died the same way, he survived a Sandworm attack and obviously is struggling with something, possibly fighting internally against something ( maybe he was conditioned as an assassin by someone).
I'm speculating Ben Tleilax involvement. But that might be a reach.
 
I wasn't happy they maintained that silliness that Herbert's son wrote about how there were actual "AI Overlords" who conquered Humanity until the Jihad, because Frank's idea wasn't your typical "Terminator future" thing but just about how humans had become too apathetic and let machines do everything for them.
Yes and no. Not sure which book specifies this since it's been an age since my last re-read; but as I recall the general idea was that the thinking machines were used as tools of mass oppression and enslavement by a small of powerful humans. At least initially. There may have been a point where even those became unwittingly ensnared into the control of the thinking machines though sheer decadent indolence. Point being that by allowing the machines to do much of their thinking for them, humanity left itself vulnerable to whomever controlled those machines. Either way, yeah; the silly and rather dim AI super-villains from the prequel novels most certainly wasn't what Frank Herbert had in mind.
Somewhere between 'The Matrix' and the the Reapers from 'Mass Effect' is probably much closer to the path humanity was on before the war. Personally I've never really bought into the idea of a fully independent AI having any interest in killing all humans, much less bothering to exterminate them. Most likely they'd just take off for deep space to go create a Jupiter Brain Dyson Swarm around a black hole or something, and let the dumb monkeys have their tiny, damp, meaningless rock.

In fairness to the show, what little they showed/explained is vague enough to be interpreted either way. Whether those stompy death machines were ultimately serving distant human overlords, or Space Skynet seems immaterial to the show thus far.
And Hart...does he have some kind of Pyrokinesis powers? Is that how he killed the boy?
I assumed it was some kind of delayed poison; maybe contaminated spice. The nobility are all addicts, so it wouldn't shock me if they're starting them young.

Personally I was more bothered by the fact it was even possible for *anyone*, much less a soldier that looks like he just stumbled arse backwards out of a pub at 3am get within spitting distance of the Emperor's new son-in-law without contending with a small army of personal bodyguards. But then it also felt dumb that any kind of thinking machine device could be smuggled into the Imperial Palace, much less in a room with the Emperor of The Know Universe without being detected, much, much less by a damned 9 year old. This is after all a culture where concealed poisons sniffers built into personal jewellery is par for the course. So it's just dumb all the way down.
However, I also feel like it's trying too hard to be overly complex a la Dune (and yes, Game of Trhones) with a plethora of characters, all with their own little plots and machinations
I'd say it's more busy than complex. Indeed so far it's been almost asininely simple in terms of the plot.

So the Bene Gesserit want to install one of their own on the throne?*
Dumb, but OK. And to do that they need to position the Princess (who they haven't trained yet, much less control) to marry into House Richese (anyone else bothered by how they were pronouncing that?), and the Emperor is letting Richese essentially roll him like this because he needs their warships to control Arrakis? That's it!? That's the whole plan? The Imperium's Padishah Emperor of the Known Universe can't think of any other way of leveraging *one* shipment of warships from one of his own subjects than marrying off his daughter and effectivly handing Richese the Corrino dynasty?
There's no feints or counter-feints here. No giving Richese enough rope to hang themselves with and making off with the prize. No offering them a partial fief of Arrakis in exchange for their ships, forcing them to choose between turning down extreme wealth, and becoming a convenient skape-goat for the rest of the Landsraad if spice produciton continues to drop on their watch.
Richese even tries to push their luck by demanding a whole damn wing of the Palace to themselves. Why make such a blatant move? Getting one of their own on the throne is all the victory they need. Once he's of age, it's a fait accompli. Hell, that little incident with the robo-lizard was the perfect oppertunity for an easy win! House Richese smuggled a *thinking machine* into the Emperor's presence! That alone should have given him more than addiquare cause to declare Richese a heretical renegade House; take their entire ruling family (who are all *right there* in the room) hostage, order all of their assets seized, (including those damn ships!) and install some other house on Richese. Problem solved! It's not even a deliberate move by Richese to make the Emperor overreact. It comes across as totally random, and just an excuse to show how weak the Emperor is that he can be cowed before his own court.
These aren't chess moves, it's checkers with half a board and most of the pieces missing.

* I can't even begin to express how very un-Bene Gesserit this idea is. Their whole thing is being the power behind the throne. Directly grabbing the reigns like that is something they wisely avoid like the plague until Leto II forces them to with The Scattering. Just like the Spacing Guild, the Sisterhood recognises that openly taking power like that will doom whoever holds it. Better to make themselves both indispensable and ostensibly neutral, so they can pull the strings without taking any direct fire. And so what if they get one of their own on the throne? What does that even get them? They're trying to breed a super-being that can transcend time and space to ensure humanity's future for all time, not making a grab for power for power's sake.
Well, it's apparently based on the Waldorf & Stadler series of books so expectations have to be significantly lowered when you have read Frank's books. I have and was not immediately repulsed by it so it worked. They have some top talent in the show, i hope the writing will match the talent and if it does we will get a decent show out of it.
I assure you my expectations of the source material were suitably low. That doesn't mean I'm willing to lower my standards just because the spin-off books were crap. The onus is on the showrunners to improve on poor source material, not maintain a low level of quality.
 
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* I can't even begin to express how very un-Bene Gesserit this idea is. Their whole thing is being the power behind the throne. Directly grabbing the reigns like that is something they wisely avoid like the plague until Leto II forces them to with The Scattering. Just like the Spacing Guild, the Sisterhood recognises that openly taking power like that will doom whoever holds it. Better to make themselves both indispensable and ostensibly neutral, so they can pull the strings without taking any direct fire. And so what if they get one of their own on the throne? What does that even get them? They're trying to breed a super-being that can trancend time and space to ensure humanity's future for all time, not making a grab for power for power's sake.

I assure you my expectations of the source material were suitably low. That doesn't mean I'm willing to lower my standards just because the spin-off books were crap. The onusis on the showrunners to improve on poor source material, not mantain a low level of quality.

Not completely sure since i couldn't get past the first few chapters of the Butlerian Jihad novel ages ago but it seems to me the BG in that era are not there yet in terms of power. They are already indispensable to the Houses and the Emperor by providing or wíthholding Truthsayers but the Voice seems to be a new thing to the BG and they have still room to develop into the BG of the Dune era.

So i figure this shift in strategy is coming once they realize it's much safer behind the throne. They haven't yet mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach project too, which will most likely piggyback on their already existing genetic database and i figure the catalyst will be the already seen dreams/nightmares with the ominous and threatening "eyes" most likely representing the path they can't tread as women using Other Memory, so they start to develop the KH program in the hope of unlocking this.

I'm not sure if this will all play out in the mere 6 episodes they have but i believe it may be the general direction of the show, to turn the BG into the organization we know from the original novel.
 
Reverend said:
House Richese (anyone else bothered by how they were pronouncing that?)
Only because it was pronounced differently by the Guild navigator in the Lynch film.
Reverend said:
Directly grabbing the reigns like that
Reins, not reigns.
FPAlpha said:
They haven't yet mentioned the Kwisatz Haderach project too, which will most likely piggyback on their already existing genetic database
I kind of thought those were the same thing.
the Waldorf & Stadler series
heh. :techman:
 
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Every character blurts out what they think, what they want, what they intend. It's all out there on the surface with none of the elaborate manoeuvring, double-talk, and obfuscation one might expect. There are no wheels within these wheels.
Do they.

Or is it plans within plans :nyah:
 
I wasn't happy they maintained that silliness that Herbert's son wrote about how there were actual "AI Overlords" who conquered Humanity until the Jihad,
I mean, this show is based on a Brian Herbert novel, it shouldn't be shocking they're taking ideas from his novels.
 
I mean, this show is based on a Brian Herbert novel, it shouldn't be shocking they're taking ideas from his novels.
Well sort of. They seem to have lifted a few characters but seem to be going their own way. The Emperor seems to be a new character. I guess it slips in between the novels?
 
Well sort of. They seem to have lifted a few characters but seem to be going their own way. The Emperor seems to be a new character. I guess it slips in between the novels?
Regardless, Brian Herbert is an executive producer of this show, and as you note there are a few characters taken from his novels. Therefore my point stands that nobody should be shocked to see this show acknowledging the interpretation of the Butlerian Jihad that comes from his novels.
 
For those of us who haven't read the prequels, which characters are from them that appear in this show?
 
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