Do you support Arizona?

[Mistral]

Let's say that a citizen is stopped by an officer, does not have identification with them, and the officer claims a reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally. What happens next? I'm assuming that the person must remain with the officer or at headquarters until citizenship/identity can be verified. This is a big inconvenience, but it's not deportation.

If someone believes that they will be targeted by police who overstep their legal authority, then the expedient thing to do is to carry a driver's license or other necessary card with them at all times.

Why? Because some a-hole in the state capital can't figure out a more practical solution that won't leave me the victim of a "big inconvenience"? Let's look at another aspect of the law's flaws. In my life I've probably found 6-10 SS cards people have lost. Why did they lose them? Because a lot of people carry them and some people get careless/forgetful. Now you want them carrying a Visa/Birth Certificate/Naturalization papers?

Like identity thieves don't have it too easy already? I keep such documents in a home safe, not on my person, for very good reasons. That would be one of them-not losing the precious things where strangers might find them. Carry them around? Stupid idea. Stupid.

 

[Smiley]

I just looked up how much it is to get a non-driver AZ ID card: $12. Sure, it would be nice if it were free, but the MVD has operating costs, too. That's a one-time fee.

Of course, we've moved away from the topic of the law itself, which does not grant police extraordinary new authority at all. In select situations, they will be able to follow up on what they observe and deduce regarding illegal residents. I don't know how effective this will be in the long run, but one positive effect is that the issue of immigration control and reform is back in the public consciousness.

 

[Crash]

I just looked up how much it is to get a non-driver AZ ID card: $12. Sure, it would be nice if it were free, but the MVD has operating costs, too. That's a one-time fee.

Which is a handful of meals in many cases. Plus, the cost of getting there and of possibly trying to get off work -- both difficult prospects given the kind of poverty we're discussing here, y'know.

 

[Davros]

The funny thing is that immigration violent crime and property crime have all been going down in Arizona before this law was passed. For all the cries of increased crime due to the illegals it turns out they were based on nothing.

 

[FrontLine]

First-sure, there might be other circumstances-like the driver has long hair or a tiny hole in his shirt, smaller than a dime. In AZ that's "disreputable appearance". Says so on my arrest papers from 93.
And a visible Bic without tobacco products was held up as probable cause in a friend of mine's case. There were no other details beyond "4 long-haired young men in the car". No smell, red eyes or paraphernalia. I should know-I was in the car. Christ, we got pulled over in broad daylight around the corner from my house. My buddy ended up in court for an outstanding traffic warrant, fyi.

And IMO that is a "cop law". Similar to that is the "license plate light" law in many states. In other words those are laws that are written to give a cop legal cover to investigate further.

As for drunk driver roadblocks-they stop everyone who comes by. Nobody gets through without at least a cursory once-over. In Az St. Patty's Day is reasonable suspicion. So is New Years Eve. So are Friday nights. That may not be how things are done in Laveen(yet) but in the city it happens all of the time. Don't you pay attention to the local news? They mention the number of arrests made at the DD roadblocks on it(the news). [And how many people operate a motor vehicle while running down the street with their pants around their ankles, anyway?] Those roadblocks have been contested in court as civil liberty violations and the cases have been struck down by the Az Supreme Court. So here the cops have a nice little funnel of people who ALL represent "probable cause" as established in Az courts. God help you if you take the wife to dinner on the weekend, have black hair/brown skin and drive down the wrong street. Especially if you leave your internal passport(sorry, I mean citizenship papers) at home by mistake.

The SCOTUS has already ruled on road blocks for DUIs. The cars must be randomly selected. So long as that occurs then it is legal. If they target each and every car then it becomes unlawful.

No the SCOTUS required it years ago.

There's no requirement to purchase ID -- emphasis on PURCHASE. If Arizona had half a mind to actually protect minorities in this regard an amendment making such IDs free of charge would have been included, but, of course, it wasn't.

Agreed. Now do you know if AZ provides ID (not DLs) for free or not?

You and I both know it's usually the poor and minorities who lack what government considers proper ID. There's no getting around the fact that it will be Hispanics who are targeted by this law, and whether you call it racism or classism or whatever, the fact of the matter is that it is extremely likely to occur.

As I have already stated I did not agree with the courts decision in this matter.

Gee thats nice. Now how about those who hold the opinion that CA is a shit hole?

When they're not sucking on the government teat I'll take them seriously. Arizona is sucking up California tax dollars at a fairly impressive rate by virtue of the fact that they pay in less tax then they receive from the feds. Ironic, given that is largely conservative states who have this problem, and yet they whine and bitch about California policy on a regular basis.

To be perfectly frank, I don't like my tax dollars going towards what I consider an angry little fiefdom of upset morons.

So CA is superior to AZ, and CA has no problems that would cause others to perceive it as a shit hole? Then again there are those who dont like their tax dollars to going to self proclaimed sanctuary cities run by air heads who willfully obstruct the Federal government duties. Oh and I have told you before that I am not happy with taking money from one state and giving it to another.

The morons who passed this will live with the consequences, none of which will turn out to be good - this won't reduce illegal immigration by one person, and it will cost Arizona a lot of money. End of story.

and the consequences from the impact of illegal immigrants (sky rocketing crime rate, gangs populated by illegals) don't already?

 

[Davros]

and the consequences from the impact of illegal immigrants (sky rocketing crime rate, gangs populated by illegals) don't already?

But the crime rates have been going down not up.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201004290029

 

[Crash]

Agreed. Now do you know if AZ provides ID (not DLs) for free or not?

They do not. Moreover, if Arizona is going to get into the business of dealing with immigration I would think a subsidized green card program should be enacted. If they're going to be able to be able to ask for anything resembling proof of residency then it's going to be a problem for someone who loses their green card or has it stolen. It can take months and over $300 to replace.

I don't think it's unreasonable that the state -- given they're so worried about undocumented immigrants -- should work to provide the necessary identification for as many individuals as possible. If the state wishes to assume the federal government's job in this area, they should also incur the costs associated with it.

So CA is superior to AZ, and CA has no problems that would cause others to perceive it as a shit hole? Then again there are those who dont like their tax dollars to going to self proclaimed sanctuary cities run by air heads who willfully obstruct the Federal government duties. Oh and I have told you before that I am not happy with taking money from one state and giving it to another.

People bitch on a regular basis about California, our budget problems, and whatever else they see fit to lay at our feet. I just find it stupidly hypocritical that so many of these people are from states who produce politicians and a constituency that demands accountability can't even meet the basic needs of their state. At the very least, those states who are on the federal dole should be forced to enact a state income tax.

 

[cyph]

So... any ethnic studies students in Arizona on this message board? Or did they all transfer out this week?

5/12/2010 - Arizona bans 'ethnic studies'

 

[cyph]

whoops, double posted... :-\

 

[Davros]

I took a Chicano Studies class in college and it was a great and very informative experience I would happily recomend.

 

[Mistral]

Frontline, regarding Drunk Driver roadblocks-all the drivers are funneled past cops who can look at each driver/carload as they pass. How random is that? With this immigration law in place they can pick and choose. Prove "random" when they see everyone who passes. How do you know?

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

The ethnic studies law is targeted towards public high schools, not colleges.

I took a Chicano literature class at MCC about 7 or 8 years ago. It was interesting, although the literature was a bit heavy handed for my tastes. I guess their level of hardcore Catholicism has really given them some issues. There was all this poetry equating red wine with a woman's menstrual blood. We only read 2 novels in the class-- House on Mango Street and And the Earth Did Not Devour Him. They were both kinda the same-- very episodic stories about a young child told in nonlinear fashion.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Frontline, regarding Drunk Driver roadblocks-all the drivers are funneled past cops who can look at each driver/carload as they pass. How random is that? With this immigration law in place they can pick and choose. Prove "random" when they see everyone who passes. How do you know?

We can speculate all we want. How do you know it won't be random?

 

[Davros]

The ethnic studies law is targeted towards public high schools, not colleges.

It's still a monumentally stupid idea.

 

[Chaos Descending]

The ethnic studies law is targeted towards public high schools, not colleges.

It's still a monumentally stupid idea.

It's a money saver. What is our broke state going to spend money on, math or ethnic studies?

 

[Davros]

The ethnic studies law is targeted towards public high schools, not colleges.

It's still a monumentally stupid idea.

It's a money saver. What is our broke state going to spend money on, math or ethnic studies?

BS, you don't have to pass a law banning such classes to not fund them next year. But if you are worried about money, start worrying about all the lost income your state now faces because of their other idiotic law.

 

[Chaos Descending]

In pretty sure that all this "lost income" is a load of histrionics that'll never quite pan out to be as bad as the nay sayers claim.

 

[Mallory]

No.

1. You don't have to be a citizen to get a driver's license. You can also be a legal immigrant, or even here on a TEMPORARY visa.

2. The problem with using the driver's license, if a person is here on a TEMPORARY visa, it's possible that their visa would run out before the license would expire. Like my wife, for example. Her visa was for two years, Texas gave her a license good for much longer than that. What if she decided to just stay?

Here in Oregon when you apply for or renew your driver's license or state ID card you must provide proof of legal presence. Legal presence means that you are a U.S. citizen, permanent legal resident, or otherwise legally present in the U.S. If you are here on a TEMPORARY visa, your license expires when it does.

 

[Trilliam]

Frontline, regarding Drunk Driver roadblocks-all the drivers are funneled past cops who can look at each driver/carload as they pass. How random is that? With this immigration law in place they can pick and choose. Prove "random" when they see everyone who passes. How do you know?

OT bu thow isthis any different to Random Breath testing?

 

[FrontLine]

Frontline, regarding Drunk Driver roadblocks-all the drivers are funneled past cops who can look at each driver/carload as they pass. How random is that? With this immigration law in place they can pick and choose. Prove "random" when they see everyone who passes. How do you know?

OT bu thow isthis any different to Random Breath testing?

You cant randomly test breath in the US either. As for slowing the cars down to see if there is a reasonable suspicion to pull someone over, that is playing fast and loose with the SCOTUS ruling but it within the limits established by SCOTUS. It may suck, but its constitutional.