Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST VI?
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Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
^This. You also have to remember it has been few years after TVH, and we did not know anything about the character. I think most people disagree with this concept because he was Ben Sisko's father in DS9.
^This. You also have to remember it has been few years after TVH, and we did not know anything about the character. I think most people disagree with this concept because he was Ben Sisko's father in DS9.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
^ Maybe Kirk did the deed with Cartwright's wife/sister/mother?
In all seriousness though, we didn't know Cartwright, his history with the Klingons, his career and how he got to where he ended up in TUC.
Just because the same actor played both Cartwright and Joseph Sisko, they are different characters so it doesn't bother me that the Admiral had his own "evil" agenda.
^ Maybe Kirk did the deed with Cartwright's wife/sister/mother?
In all seriousness though, we didn't know Cartwright, his history with the Klingons, his career and how he got to where he ended up in TUC.
Just because the same actor played both Cartwright and Joseph Sisko, they are different characters so it doesn't bother me that the Admiral had his own "evil" agenda.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
to be honest they needed someone to be the bad guy, it makes the Federation more human. not everyone can be perfect.
to be honest they needed someone to be the bad guy, it makes the Federation more human. not everyone can be perfect.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
I thought it was a cool twist.
Coincidentally, I'm currently reading a Trek novel, "Cast No Shadows," that explores the Khitomer conspiracy and its immediate fallout. It paints Cartwright as someone who was always against the Federation ever letting its guard down with the Klingons, and was conspiring with Chang and other Klingons who felt a peace treaty with the Federation would weaken the Empire. Both agreed that it was best for both sides to remain as they were and worked secretly to undermine the treaty being signed.
I thought it was a cool twist.
Coincidentally, I'm currently reading a Trek novel, "Cast No Shadows," that explores the Khitomer conspiracy and its immediate fallout. It paints Cartwright as someone who was always against the Federation ever letting its guard down with the Klingons, and was conspiring with Chang and other Klingons who felt a peace treaty with the Federation would weaken the Empire. Both agreed that it was best for both sides to remain as they were and worked secretly to undermine the treaty being signed.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
Exactly. If anything, I liked that it was a character we'd seen before, not some newly created one, invented solely to be a traitor.
What's more interesting is that at one stage the role that Valeris ended up playing was intended for Saavik. IIRC, Gene Rodenberry was the first to complain, saying that Saavik was 'one of the family now' and that this would be a betrayal. Although GR's influence was somewhat diminished at this stage, ultimately TPTB agreed with him and the character was re-written (but Kirstie Alley's unavailability/ price tag could have been a factor too).
While we fans sometimes balk at 'character assassination like this', sometimes this sort of turnabout can make for drama. Think Tony Almeida in S7 of 24, Lenier at the end of Babylon 5, Theon in Game of Thrones, etc.
Exactly. If anything, I liked that it was a character we'd seen before, not some newly created one, invented solely to be a traitor.
What's more interesting is that at one stage the role that Valeris ended up playing was intended for Saavik. IIRC, Gene Rodenberry was the first to complain, saying that Saavik was 'one of the family now' and that this would be a betrayal. Although GR's influence was somewhat diminished at this stage, ultimately TPTB agreed with him and the character was re-written (but Kirstie Alley's unavailability/ price tag could have been a factor too).
While we fans sometimes balk at 'character assassination like this', sometimes this sort of turnabout can make for drama. Think Tony Almeida in S7 of 24, Lenier at the end of Babylon 5, Theon in Game of Thrones, etc.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
By ST:VI it was apparent that they weren't going to do anymore TOS movies, and Savvik's role in TVH was limited to approximately 30 seconds so why the hell not make it Savvik? Plus, knowing that Savvik was 'one of the family' it would have made a great twist in the story and brought actual closure to the character.
By ST:VI it was apparent that they weren't going to do anymore TOS movies, and Savvik's role in TVH was limited to approximately 30 seconds so why the hell not make it Savvik? Plus, knowing that Savvik was 'one of the family' it would have made a great twist in the story and brought actual closure to the character.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
^ Yeah, I think it would have been less predictable and would have made for a 'WTF?!' plot twist. As it is, much as I like this movie, you're never really in any doubt about who the traitor will be.
Now, can you imagine the apoplexy if one of the classic crew turned out to be the traitor?!
^ Yeah, I think it would have been less predictable and would have made for a 'WTF?!' plot twist. As it is, much as I like this movie, you're never really in any doubt about who the traitor will be.
Now, can you imagine the apoplexy if one of the classic crew turned out to be the traitor?!
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Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
Umm, yeah, that would have made a few heads explode "Scanners" style.
Since you suggested it, whom of the classic crew would you have conspire?
Sincerely,
Bill
Umm, yeah, that would have made a few heads explode "Scanners" style.
Since you suggested it, whom of the classic crew would you have conspire?
Sincerely,
Bill
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
^ Well, this involves a bit of retconning. But remember how Scotty gave Worf that funny look in Relics? Didn't seem too enlightened there, did he?
Alternatively, with TUC having been a thinly-disguised analogy for Glasnost (Praxis = Chernobyl, Gorkon = Gorbachev), it might have been interesting to have the Russian crew member (Chekov) be the one who opposes reconciliation in the space Cold War.
^ Well, this involves a bit of retconning. But remember how Scotty gave Worf that funny look in Relics? Didn't seem too enlightened there, did he?
Alternatively, with TUC having been a thinly-disguised analogy for Glasnost (Praxis = Chernobyl, Gorkon = Gorbachev), it might have been interesting to have the Russian crew member (Chekov) be the one who opposes reconciliation in the space Cold War.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
I was actually thinking Chekov myself, as he seemed relatively hostile to the situation, and given his tactical experience he would have the skills to tamper with Enterprise's weapons/defense systems.
I was actually thinking Chekov myself, as he seemed relatively hostile to the situation, and given his tactical experience he would have the skills to tamper with Enterprise's weapons/defense systems.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
^ And there's the 'guess who's coming to dinner' comment (originally written for Uhurua but Nichelle Nichols refused to say it).
Of course, it would never have happened, as all of the original actors were so protective of their characters that they would never have allowed it to happen; and I can understand and respect that. But it would have made for a very powerful twist.
^ And there's the 'guess who's coming to dinner' comment (originally written for Uhurua but Nichelle Nichols refused to say it).
Of course, it would never have happened, as all of the original actors were so protective of their characters that they would never have allowed it to happen; and I can understand and respect that. But it would have made for a very powerful twist.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
Apparently Brock Peters himself had a problem with it, as there were some of his lines that he had serious trouble saying (like the "alien trash of the galaxy" comment).
Apparently Brock Peters himself had a problem with it, as there were some of his lines that he had serious trouble saying (like the "alien trash of the galaxy" comment).
doubleohfive
Fleet Admiral
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
Nick Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley for STIV, but she refused to do the part. Likewise, he wanted to bring James Horner back to score the film, but by 1991, Horner had become successful enough that the production simply could not afford his going rate at the time.
I don't know if anything's ever been said about why they couldn't get Robin Curtis back, or even why if she was available, they didn't want her back for the part.
Nick Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley for STIV, but she refused to do the part. Likewise, he wanted to bring James Horner back to score the film, but by 1991, Horner had become successful enough that the production simply could not afford his going rate at the time.
I don't know if anything's ever been said about why they couldn't get Robin Curtis back, or even why if she was available, they didn't want her back for the part.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
There were a couple of issues of DC's comic run which featured Cartwright and which are presumably set a short time before the beginning of TUC. I have my copy in a bundled edition called Revisitations, which also features a Harry Mudd story, and I believe IIRC IDW also included these issues in their collection of Gary Seven, as he also appears.
The basic premise is that one of the Federation's allies has designed a new "deterrent" weapon that is theoretically more powerful than conventional Starfleet weapons like phasers and photon torpedoes, and would therefore be ideal as a last resort against rivals like the Klingons and the Romulans. The Enterprise is chosen to be one of the test ships because the weapon is based on a supposedly stable form of protomatter, and if Kirk (who naturally isn't keen on protomatter after TWOK) were to be convinced, it would be a big word towards Starfleet adopting the design.
Cartwright seems to be a strong believer in the possibility of such a deterrent weapon, and the story seems to imply that its eventual failure is a factor in his actions in TUC. He really wants the project to succeed so that the Federation will be protected, and that the mission fails undoubtedly leaves him feeling more vulnerable. Saavik also makes a cameo at the Enterprise's helm, which is possibly a nod to the idea that she was originally to fill the role that became Valeris.
It's an interesting story, and Gary makes a nice addition. He was sent to stop the tests before they fail in a catastrophic manner, eventually leading to a galactic war that the Feds can't avoid, and doesn't get to solve that problem before events twist out of control.
There were a couple of issues of DC's comic run which featured Cartwright and which are presumably set a short time before the beginning of TUC. I have my copy in a bundled edition called Revisitations, which also features a Harry Mudd story, and I believe IIRC IDW also included these issues in their collection of Gary Seven, as he also appears.
The basic premise is that one of the Federation's allies has designed a new "deterrent" weapon that is theoretically more powerful than conventional Starfleet weapons like phasers and photon torpedoes, and would therefore be ideal as a last resort against rivals like the Klingons and the Romulans. The Enterprise is chosen to be one of the test ships because the weapon is based on a supposedly stable form of protomatter, and if Kirk (who naturally isn't keen on protomatter after TWOK) were to be convinced, it would be a big word towards Starfleet adopting the design.
Cartwright seems to be a strong believer in the possibility of such a deterrent weapon, and the story seems to imply that its eventual failure is a factor in his actions in TUC. He really wants the project to succeed so that the Federation will be protected, and that the mission fails undoubtedly leaves him feeling more vulnerable. Saavik also makes a cameo at the Enterprise's helm, which is possibly a nod to the idea that she was originally to fill the role that became Valeris.
It's an interesting story, and Gary makes a nice addition. He was sent to stop the tests before they fail in a catastrophic manner, eventually leading to a galactic war that the Feds can't avoid, and doesn't get to solve that problem before events twist out of control.
Re: Did you like or dislike that Admiral Cartwright turned bad in ST V
In the Starfleet Museum's biography of James Kirk's life prior to the Enterprise (non-canon), Cartwright was involved in a earlier plan to spark a open war with the Klingon Empire, Kirk, after being asked to join the "plot," turned in a number of his former academy classmates to Starfleet. Cartwright's participation went undiscovered for thirty years.
Might have something to do with why Kirk's capture/death by the Klingon's was part of the TUC plan.
About three-quarters through the article ... http://www.starfleet-museum.org/avenger-predator.htm
In the Starfleet Museum's biography of James Kirk's life prior to the Enterprise (non-canon), Cartwright was involved in a earlier plan to spark a open war with the Klingon Empire, Kirk, after being asked to join the "plot," turned in a number of his former academy classmates to Starfleet. Cartwright's participation went undiscovered for thirty years.
Might have something to do with why Kirk's capture/death by the Klingon's was part of the TUC plan.
About three-quarters through the article ... http://www.starfleet-museum.org/avenger-predator.htm
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