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Did the Borg Queen Neuter the Concept of the Borg?

Mr. Friscus

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I'm unsure how there can be a "Borg Queen" in what we had known previously about "the Borg" before Star Trek: First Contact.

Initially, The Borg were in a cube with however many tens-to-hundreds of thousands of drones operating it, none more important than the other. One could even apply a social commentary of communism in the Borg. It had no heirarchal weakness, you could take out the upper-right quadrant and the rest would just adapt and rebuild, and Q stated when set up the Federation's "introduction" to them. Immediate, synced reaction and decisions in a split-second notice.

Then, we have a Queen, who makes decisions and commands drones to do what she wants, which sometimes isn't even based on logic or data, but for personal reasons.

Once the queen was introduced, it made for an interesting Data vs. Queen confrontation and story, but it completely cut the balls off of what was so coldly threatening about the Borg.
 
Initially, The Borg were in a cube with however many tens-to-hundreds of thousands of drones operating it, none more important than the other. One could even apply a social commentary of communism in the Borg. It had no heirarchal weakness, you could take out the upper-right quadrant and the rest would just adapt and rebuild, and Q stated when set up the Federation's "introduction" to them. Immediate, synced reaction and decisions in a split-second notice.
Or it mirrored IRL.

Just look at how Communism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba all played out.

You have a "Supreme Leader" of sorts commanding the masses.

This is no different.
 
Yes. In fact, as good as it was, "Best of Both Worlds" deciding that they couldn't write the Borg as a collective consciousness as they had in "Q Who?" and that they needed a single voice in Picard/Locutus was the beginning of the ruination of the original Borg concept. BoBW and FC pulled it off successfully, but they led to the destruction of the Borg as a good enemy.
 
Or it mirrored IRL.

Just look at how Communism in Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba all played out.

You have a "Supreme Leader" of sorts commanding the masses.

This is no different.
Communist countries do generally have a leader at the top, much like other countries. However, the Borg aren't supposed to be communal like human countries that call themselves communist, they're supposed to be communal like ants or bees, with no single leader or small group of leaders at the top. (They have queens, but they're for reproduction, not for decision-making.) Early Borg could not be defeated by a well-aimed or fortunate hit on one of the members of the Borg, and that made them strong. Once that was no longer true, all you needed was a way to kill the queen or mislead her. (And why did the queen have to look sexualized when they get their drones by assimilation?)
 
Best of Both Worlds is one of my favorite Trek episodes, but it definitely contributed to the defanging of the Borg. Similarly, First Contact is my favorite Next Generation movie, in spite of how ridiculous Action-Man Picard looks in retrospect, but it certainly didn't help.

As much as I like Seven in Picard, given that one insane Romulan getting assimilated could shut down an entire Cube, it doesn't bode well for their survival as a menacing enemy.
 
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Communist countries do generally have a leader at the top, much like other countries. However, the Borg aren't supposed to be communal like human countries that call themselves communist, they're supposed to be communal like ants or bees, with no single leader or small group of leaders at the top.
But you're assimilating "People", not insects.
So you have to deal with the issues that come with people.
Somebody usually wants to rise to the top in a large enough group of people.

In "The Borg", they found somebody who could rise to the top.

(They have queens, but they're for reproduction, not for decision-making.) Early Borg could not be defeated by a well-aimed or fortunate hit on one of the members of the Borg, and that made them strong. Once that was no longer true, all you needed was a way to kill the queen or mislead her.
And look at what happens when you take out the Queen in the Borg, they'll just spawn another one some-where else.

Just because you destroy the body, doesn't mean the program is gone.

The body is just a shell / vessel for "The Queen".

(And why did the queen have to look sexualized when they get their drones by assimilation?)
Obvious Reasons.
 
The Borg Queen or some antagonist the characters could interact with was inevitable for their big screen debut. It could have been a new development for the Collective or like a version of Locutus instead or there were multiple Queens for different hives or something. But they were probably set on it from day one.
 
Yes, I hate the Borg Queen with the fire of a thousand suns. I mean, they could maybe have made it work. If they simply made her a spokesperson, cold and menacing. But, no, they had to make her the stereotypical hypersexual female villain, who gets her way by seduction and purring like a sex kitten. The Borg Queen/Data implied sex scene in First Contact is utterly cringeworthy and so wholly unnecessary. I guess it was the Berman era though.

The Borg were never better than their first appearance. BOBW was brilliant too, Everything after that was variable and watered down what was initially an absolutely terrifying enemy. By the end of Voyager they were about as dull and unexciting as the Romulans were in TNG.
 
I agree the Borg Queen effectively destroyed the concept of the Borg as a chilling enemy. A faceless horde that didn't share any of your personal values, that was utterly alien, that couldn't be reasoned with, that simply stomped over you, effectively unstoppable. Like Arturis described them, a 'force of nature' or a 'storm'.

But I can also understand that from a narrative point of view, there's only so many stories you can tell about them that way, and that they wanted a face and a voice to 'play against' (Locutus in BOBW, the Queen in FC).
 
Kinda agree. The Borg were slightly more scarier concept before the queen.
However saying that I understand the need for a villain character in star trek first contact. And I believe it worked well as a concept to begin with. Think Voyager used the Borg Queen too much as a generic villain. And maybe a missed opportunity to explain how and why the Borg have a queen.
Think she worked in First Contact and voyager's dark frontier..
 
I'm unsure how there can be a "Borg Queen" in what we had known previously about "the Borg" before Star Trek: First Contact.

Short story: Timeline alterations and paradoxes (or even continual plot discontinuity between stories) caused her creation later on, or it was due to the mindset and ultimately failed experiment of Locutus that had the Collective deciding to make their own unifying figure.

Shorter story: They ran out of ideas and didn't want to build on the TV show's episodes (which sometimes had slightly altered continuity as well), so they went all out with the new creation.

Up next, the sleep-inducing long version, with even more headcanon gymnastics than what I'd just written:

Initially, The Borg were in a cube with however many tens-to-hundreds of thousands of drones operating it, none more important than the other. One could even apply a social commentary of communism in the Borg. It had no heirarchal weakness, you could take out the upper-right quadrant and the rest would just adapt and rebuild, and Q stated when set up the Federation's "introduction" to them. Immediate, synced reaction and decisions in a split-second notice.

True.

"Q Who" set a lot of groundwork for the Collective, distributed technology to ensure that a Cube could remain operable even if 79.4586753094747321-whatever percent was rendered inoperable. We're told they only take technology if it interests them (think "Pakleds, on steroids via the hive mind gestalt"). The story even showed incubators, making some invariably wonder about "Borg Copulation" as byproduct.
Then comes "The Best of Both Worlds". Characters are shocked that they want people by name, all of a sudden. The audience could figure it out real fast that they were going to Cybertize Borgify Picard, though the "why" remained a genuine mystery. The story ignores baby borgs and reveals a terrifying greater truth of the Borg and how they will abduct and alter as many individuals as possible to more quickly grow their ranks. Why? Because they want to grow and improve others' lives, despite having forgotten a few things along the way. (No worries, "Voyager" builds on this via species 8472, as having an enemy requiring actual ranks, but that also renders the Borg as being more generic as a result.)

Then again, "I, Borg", on top of everything else (both bad and good) and that's a long post in of itself, forgets that assimilation is used to increase their numbers, hence characters spewing nonsense that the Borg is a singular race. It had an initial race, but incorporated so many other species and races. The Borg was always a gestalt, but as the Cube in TBOBW was destroyed, it's an easy assertion that more Cubes are out there and that the Collective is big.

"Descent" also acts vaguely, unsure if it's a splintered-off group or the actual results of Picard's big idea to let Hugh go home to teach the others how to laugh. The easiest assumption again is more headcanon gymnastics, that it's a splinter group. The story spends more time waffling and giving us hokey dialogue, especially during part two and squandering a great story idea that was far better suited as an action piece and with psychopathic murderous Borg thanks to Hugh (unlike what's to follow) than 88 minutes of a damp squib, especially part 2, and Lore was another convenience and arguably unneeded contrivance as well. Then again, the idea of converting human brain patterns into electronics or positronics or whatever pt 2 said tries to make up for it (despite floundering). So much of pt 2 is so bad that it takes down the good stuff with it :( .


Then, we have a Queen, who makes decisions and commands drones to do what she wants, which sometimes isn't even based on logic or data, but for personal reasons.

As with everything preceding, the continuity is vague and woolly, nor does it help when the Queen brushes it all off with corny "such limited three dimensional terms". It'd have been easier, more believable, less risible, etc, to have Queen explain how the failed Locutus experiment precipitated the need of the Borg to create a figure on their own and be more forceful with assimilations as they hadn't dealt with too many other species by then (except Voyager also throws in so many big 4-digit numbers that it's impossible for that claim to work. Or, most species weren't as troublesome to assimilate, even though they only had the one shot with Locutus so far as the other TNG stories did the right thing and not "let's do another 'harvest the humans' thing".)

Now comes the fun part: Again, a separate post to discuss the stupidity of the plot is needed and, to be frank (and Larry and Jim and Mike), a certain Red Letter Media covered all of the movie's plotting problems in a fun video, but the time travel aspect is pointless.

Oh, heck:

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(It mentions Defiant being the one and only prototype for what would have been a new class of starship, with one single purpose (fighting borg), until "Valient" shows up for zero reason except to confuse the audience as a cheap gag, since there's been no borg there or anywhere near there or anywhere zillions of solar systems away from there. So it's more headcanon time, maybe they added more bolts to the chassis so it wouldn't rip apart at top warp and now built more to allow cadets to command it when all the adults died or whatever, but this is getting way too far off (read "scope creep") so I'll reel back...)

But all this temporal shenanigan stuff, combined with "Enterprise" prequel's contrived discovery of the Borg because "sweeps week" is cool and they need ratings, must have quietly changed the timeline, which also renders Aunt Kathy's virtual spit-inducing lambasting of Q for introducing the Borg in that one episode more than completely moot.

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(Nope, I didn't make up the "Aunt Kathy" moniker, woohoo! It gets used in the subsequent Q episode, too! 🥳)


But that's the thing with time travel, isn't it, if someone goes back in time and changes it, we wouldn't know**. We only know because it got on film because it's a piece of fiction that, at one time, took more care with continuity. (Or as much as it could at the time, after season 4 TNG, things started to unwind... their not having a database of scripts and happenstances to make looking up basic continuity didn't help either.)


Once the queen was introduced, it made for an interesting Data vs. Queen confrontation and story, but it completely cut the balls off of what was so coldly threatening about the Borg.

Data and Queenie sitting in a tree was hokum, and a weird inversion of "Descent" where now the Borg, otherwise upgrading people, now want to make Data look like a biological lifeform completely? Won't that skin start to decay and smell bad and stuff? Seems antithetical, but add in more headcanon nonsense and it's an experiment of the Borg to help heal injured Borg instead of pulling out components that in turn trigger a disintegration process. Problem is, the Borg were so burnt out and none of those ideas used that it's all for naught. (Okay, deprecated or archaic or arcane or esoteric or otherwise, "naught" is still a word. Or is not a not word if you dig double-negatives, but I digress...)


** for a far, far better example of sci-fi discussing repercussions from time travel alterations, check this story out:

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(And the best bit involving Vicki and Steven isn't even shown!)
 
Kinda agree. The Borg were slightly more scarier concept before the queen.
However saying that I understand the need for a villain character in star trek first contact. And I believe it worked well as a concept to begin with. Think Voyager used the Borg Queen too much as a generic villain. And maybe a missed opportunity to explain how and why the Borg have a queen.
Think she worked in First Contact and voyager's dark frontier..

That, and how Borg ships went from redundant, distributed systems to just one centralized power doohickey or what not, just for plot contrivance. Obviously, with the introduction of Seven, later Borg battles would be inevitable, but it's getting cornered by how to stop the big bad baddie again. Can altering the timeline cause the Borg to somehow shift gears just enough? Even then, given their buildup in the TNG TV show, would changing their background/setup so drastically be bought into? Not often, it still feels like a "get done with story quick" trope, and as much as there ARE elements to enjoy in many of VOY's Borg encounters, fans at the time pointed out these newly made inconsistencies, because they did detract from the story too much. Setting up a villain in a way that makes them unique to others does mean they get worn out at some point, so changing their motif so drastically to try to get more out of them either works to make them fresh again, or dilutes (or wrecks) them. Part of that depends on how fresh and successful the changes are and how well they feel like a natural extension. The Queen arguably works to a point, decentralizing Borg ship design does go too far. VOY doing the Borg Queens more justice than STFC as far as a compelling villain goes says a lot in of itself, despite the nitpicks. And, of course, nitpicks - beyond the script - also wander into the subjectiveness of the audience as well.
 
I agree the Borg Queen effectively destroyed the concept of the Borg as a chilling enemy. A faceless horde that didn't share any of your personal values, that was utterly alien, that couldn't be reasoned with, that simply stomped over you, effectively unstoppable. Like Arturis described them, a 'force of nature' or a 'storm'.

But I can also understand that from a narrative point of view, there's only so many stories you can tell about them that way, and that they wanted a face and a voice to 'play against' (Locutus in BOBW, the Queen in FC).
Trek can always create a seperate Alien Species that truly accomplishes that.

One that is more inline with that.

Kind of like "The Zerg" from StarCraft, or "The Flood" from Halo, or "The Tyranids" from WarHammer 40k.
 
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Trek can always create a seperate Alien Species that truly accomplishes that.

One that is more inline with that.

Kind of like "The Zerg" from StarCraft, or "The Flood" from Halo, or "The Tyranids" from WarHammer 40k.

I'd argue that the original depiction of the Borg (as seen in Q Who) came fairly close to that. The most important differences perhaps being they were 'humanoid' and the group link was achieved by technology rather than instinct. But there was no indication that drones possessed any trace of individuality/personality or individual intelligence, like it became later. There also was no concept of 'assimilation' yet.

I even believe they were supposed to be insectoid at first, but budget considerations ruled that out.
 
I'd argue that the original depiction of the Borg (as seen in Q Who) came fairly close to that. The most important differences perhaps being they were 'humanoid' and the group link was achieved by technology rather than instinct. But there was no indication that drones possessed any trace of individuality/personality or individual intelligence, like it became later. There also was no concept of 'assimilation' yet.

I even believe they were supposed to be insectoid at first, but budget considerations ruled that out.
But with modern tech, we should be able to do that now.

We avoid the Humanoid form, make them truly a "Alien" Hive-Mind of sorts.
 
Counter argument: There were only so many episodes they could do, before the Borg would become simple Zombie enemies.

So they either could stop doing any Borh stories at all at some point, or give the Borg a face. And giving them a queen was very movie appropriate.

That the Borg are stuck at this since then, is another matter. I kind of like the idea of the Borg having "faces" for certain tasks - in a "mouth of Sauron" way, like Seven was originally introduced.
 
Kinda agree. The Borg were slightly more scarier concept before the queen.
However saying that I understand the need for a villain character in star trek first contact. And I believe it worked well as a concept to begin with. Think Voyager used the Borg Queen too much as a generic villain. And maybe a missed opportunity to explain how and why the Borg have a queen.
Think she worked in First Contact and voyager's dark frontier..
Unfortunately, what the Queen provided was a very myopic view for the Borg. She easily became obsessed with our heroes, Picard, Data, Seven and Janeway, and not on the described mission of the Borg.
 
I always viewed the Queen as more of a node, a piece of equipment used by the Borg. A pylon holding the wires up. A collective so vast will require many queens to keep things together. There appears to be some sort of cloning process going on with the typical queens but there may be a form of uplift available where a drone can be made into a queen as we almost saw happen to Seven on the Artefact.

Indeed Seven and Locutus having a form of individuality, if tailored and regulated, could be a sort of half way point but both of them were strategies. I believe the whole point of Locutus was for manipulation and he would have become a basic Borg as soon as Earth was harvested. Thanks to time travel the Borg knew a fair bit about humans so lightly assimilated Picard letting him keep his limbs and organs as body horror is not a great way to convince someone you are raising quality of life.

And Seven would have been entirely reabsorbed into the Collective after 8472 scarpered and Voyager could be assimilated.

I don't think any of it cheapens the Borg it just shows the hive mind is strategic and clever rather than just a mindless swarm of locusts.
 
The issue with the Borg Queen is that the writers have never addressed the possibility that she’s a virus that’s deliberately infected the Borg. Since that would mean the writers would have to explain who infected the Borg with her and why.

And she has to be, since the Borg as depicted in “Q Who”, BOBW, and “Regeneration” behave so different from the Borg seen in the rest of the Borg episodes (not counting Hugh, ofc). And are much scarier.

“The Last Generation” in PIC even supports the idea, seeing as the Borg Queen used the other drones for sustenance.
 
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But you're assimilating "People", not insects.
So you have to deal with the issues that come with people.
Somebody usually wants to rise to the top in a large enough group of people.
The people are effective "neutered" of all ambition and individuality. Those issues are moot. They serve the collective.
 
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