Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

[HoneyBLilly]

So, I just watched Equinox part two for the first time in about ten years . . . And I hated it. I'm generally very forgiving about some of the badly written episodes in both VOY and TNG, however the fact that Janeway tells Chakotay in oh so many words that she is emotionally compromised and he does nothing gets to me. And he had two chances to relieve HER of duty and confine HER to quarters until the whole thing was done and over with, which as "First Officer" he was well within his rights to do, but instead he allows her to beat him back down and confines HIM to quarters. Ummmmm, OK? And we're supposed to go with this? And then the fact that Tuvok even says that she is acting irrationally but he allows her to threaten him with the same punishment Chakotay is in right then; and Tuvok, who was probably acting as the XO since Chakotay had been confined to quarters, allows her. He's a Vulcan. It shouldn't matter to him if she threatens him. The only good parts of this episode were from the part where Marla(?) takes Ransom to engineering and they contact Janeway to the end where Janeway admits she's wrong. Which I will admit, she needed to, but she did also owe Chakotay an apology at the same time. And I did like the symbolism of the plaque falling down, even the ship was telling her that she crossed the line and nearly broke up the family.

So, my rant is done. I'm not sure what it is, if it's just the story or the writers. I'll probably, as someone who has her bachelors in journalism and creative writing, say it was the writer's: in this case Brannon Braga and Joe Menosky. So, I'm just curious as to what everyone thought of the episode as well?

 

[Cepstrum]

I think it was an episode that tried to shake things up a bit and create controversy. I never liked it very much *because* of that; it's always made me feel a little uncomfortable. But I think the writers were at least trying to make an impact and impression.

I would have liked it a bit more if there had been consequences later, such as Janeway being confronted by Chakotay and Tuvok to ensure something like that didn't happen again, such as establishing a better fail-safe system in the CoC.

And yes, I would have liked Tuvok to come to Chakotay's aid. There had been initial enmity and discord between them; it would've been cool to see them really come together. That and Janeway later coming to grips with what she did.

Of course, seeing the Equinox Five again would have been nice, too. They could have had a reconciliation process.

But because of the episodic nature of the show, it pretty much had to be wrapped up in that two-parter.

I will give the producers credit for deviating from the standard fare and creating moral ambiguity. Or at least attempting to. It was a little out of character for Janeway and sudden for her to become bent on retribution. She did, however, apply the PD inconsistently at least, and she was usually very much against letting her crew lose their SF principles. She just went a little overboard.

It must be tough, though, being the only SF captain or higher around. It was bound to get on her nerves at some point. We saw a foreshadowing of the toll the heavy responsibility was taking on her in "Night".



But really: Equinox is not among my favorites.

 

[DonIago]

Between Equinox and YoH I'd say that Janeway has a dangerous habit of becoming more self-righteous and disregarding her subordinates as it suits her when under stress. It...isn't appealling.

But arguably worse is the way her subordinates -let- her walk all over them, which likely only reinforces the pattern.

 

[bullethead]

Between Equinox and YoH I'd say that Janeway has a dangerous habit of becoming more self-righteous and disregarding her subordinates as it suits her when under stress. It...isn't appealling.

But arguably worse is the way her subordinates -let- her walk all over them, which likely only reinforces the pattern.

I've heard that there was a mandate for Janeway to always be right, otherwise people wouldn't take a female captain seriously.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I think it was an episode that tried to shake things up a bit and create controversy. I never liked it very much *because* of that; it's always made me feel a little uncomfortable. But I think the writers were at least trying to make an impact and impression.

I would have liked it a bit more if there had been consequences later, such as Janeway being confronted by Chakotay and Tuvok to ensure something like that didn't happen again, such as establishing a better fail-safe system in the CoC.

And yes, I would have liked Tuvok to come to Chakotay's aid. There had been initial enmity and discord between them; it would've been cool to see them really come together. That and Janeway later coming to grips with what she did.

Of course, seeing the Equinox Five again would have been nice, too. They could have had a reconciliation process.

But because of the episodic nature of the show, it pretty much had to be wrapped up in that two-parter.

I will give the producers credit for deviating from the standard fare and creating moral ambiguity. Or at least attempting to. It was a little out of character for Janeway and sudden for her to become bent on retribution. She did, however, apply the PD inconsistently at least, and she was usually very much against letting her crew lose their SF principles. She just went a little overboard.

It must be tough, though, being the only SF captain or higher around. It was bound to get on her nerves at some point. We saw a foreshadowing of the toll the heavy responsibility was taking on her in "Night".



But really: Equinox is not among my favorites.

I completely agree. See, I wasn't sure if Janeway was just badly written in that episode because, from what I've heard, Kate Mulgrew was considering leaving since she missed a lot of her sons and had just gotten remarried; and the writer's had just haphazardly thrown her in there when she came back.

However, I do see what they were trying to do. And that was show Janeway as a Starfleet officer set in her beliefs who was confronted with someone in the same order who was betraying those beliefs.

Between Equinox and YoH I'd say that Janeway has a dangerous habit of becoming more self-righteous and disregarding her subordinates as it suits her when under stress. It...isn't appealling.

How did you get YoH in there? I'm catching the self-righteousness between Night and Equinox. But that's it.

[/QUOTE]I've heard that there was a mandate for Janeway to always be right, otherwise people wouldn't take a female captain seriously.[/QUOTE]

Which is bull. There are great female leaders who have been taken seriously. Granted, not at first, but over time. All Janeway needed was consistent writing and everyone would have taken her seriously. It's like Kate Mulgrew saying that she didn't want the J/C relationship to happen because it would've taken away from her credibility as captain. Which is like saying my mother: who has been married three times, has had five children, so far has seven grandchildren(and counting); its like saying she can't be mayor of our town(or city, whatever) and that's what Janeway was, a mayor of her own little community. It just is rubbing me the wrong way.

 

[DonIago]

YoH - Janeway's summary dismissal of her CMO.

 

[kimc]

However, I do see what they were trying to do. And that was show Janeway as a Starfleet officer set in her beliefs who was confronted with someone in the same order who was betraying those beliefs.

Bingo! Just as Kirk was obsessed with killing the cloud monster at the risk of his crew in "Obsession" Janeway became obsessed with bringing Ransom to justice. In her obsession she "crossed the line".

 

[HoneyBLilly]

YoH - Janeway's summary dismissal of her CMO.

Ohhhhh, when the Doctor relieved her of duty after she got the burns. OK. I see what you're talking about.

However, I do see what they were trying to do. And that was show Janeway as a Starfleet officer set in her beliefs who was confronted with someone in the same order who was betraying those beliefs.

Bingo! Just as Kirk was obsessed with killing the cloud monster at the risk of his crew in "Obsession" Janeway became obsessed with bringing Ransom to justice. In her obsession she "crossed the line".

Hmmmm, I haven't seen any of the original. And for Kirk I would have said getting Spock back in the third movie. And he stole the Enterprise and then lost his admirality in the fourth. But that's just in my opinion

 

[Deks]

But while she was 'crossing the line', Janeway was able to put an end to Ransom's murdering of alien life-forms.
He was responsible for using sentient beings as means of fuel to shorten the voyage home, and he seriously crossed the line right there himself.

With all the technology at their disposal, resources should be of limited concern for the Feds of the 24th century ... yet, the writers went up against all of that to increase the drama.

Anyway ... I do agree that Janeway was acting a bit psychotic ... but I have to tell you I found that appealing.
It brought out a fierce determination to see something through to the end in the shortest possible time-frame (which incidentally required plenty of force at the same time).

Her judgement was clouded to alternative possibilities in such situations, but hey, seeing her in those kinds of situations enforced the rule: 'never mess with Janeway when in such a state'.
By that time, she was already a well established character and a leader in her small community of what we know as Voyager, which was probably why those who worked under her always ended up shot down when they'd call her out.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The only reason Tuvok and Chakotay didn't relieve her was if this was just an ordinary day for Kathryn Janeway. If she was reacting to these events exactly how they would expected her to, and they had both come to terms with who she was and what depths she would sink given a little stress and conflict long long long ago.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

But while she was 'crossing the line', Janeway was able to put an end to Ransom's murdering of alien life-forms.
He was responsible for using sentient beings as means of fuel to shorten the voyage home, and he seriously crossed the line right there himself.

With all the technology at their disposal, resources should be of limited concern for the Feds of the 24th century ... yet, the writers went up against all of that to increase the drama.

Anyway ... I do agree that Janeway was acting a bit psychotic ... but I have to tell you I found that appealing.
It brought out a fierce determination to see something through to the end in the shortest possible time-frame (which incidentally required plenty of force at the same time).

Her judgement was clouded to alternative possibilities in such situations, but hey, seeing her in those kinds of situations enforced the rule: 'never mess with Janeway when in such a state'.
By that time, she was already a well established character and a leader in her small community of what we know as Voyager, which was probably why those who worked under her always ended up shot down when they'd call her out.

I see your point. She just lost some points on my "Captain Scale" though. I mean, I still adore her. And Kate Mulgrew is one of the best actresses in Trek(IMO). But Janeway went overboard and she needed to be snapped back in line. Now, I have never outwardly said that I hate Brannon Braga, but this episode made me see just how little for the characters he cares.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's a writers job to destroy their characters.

The most loved first.

If your characters are exactly the same at the end of the story as they were at the beginning, then as a writer you have accomplished nothing.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

It's a writers job to destroy their characters.

The most loved first.

If your characters are exactly the same at the end of the story as they were at the beginning, then as a writer you have accomplished nothing.

OK, I'll give you that one. It's true, writer's do that, a lot.

 

[eepruls]

The problem I had with part two is that it made Janeway look crazy and unfit for command. She went WAY overboard. I can understand a captain getting pissed off in a situation like this but I still expect them to act like a captain.

As a comparison, look at Picard in "The Wounded" when a rogue Starfleet captain destroys Cardassian ships. He's pissed, disappointed, and frustrated, but he still does his duty. By having Janeway go nuts, weakens her character. They did the same thing to her in "Night" when they had her pouting and moping in her quarters.

Equinox would have been a stronger episode if Janeway emerged as the honourable captain. They could have demonstrated her high level command ability. Instead, it implies all Starfleet captains are nutjobs!

As an aside, after all the shit she put Chakotay and the rest of the crew through, all she's bringing to the pot luck is croutons? That's it? What a selfish bitch! If someone showed up at my door with frickin croutons for my pot luck I'd tell them to go back home! LOL

 

[Deckerd]

I think they Janeway character would have benefited from some of Picard's integrity. I'm not saying her decisions were all suspect but I prefer my captains to be less unpredictable when the chips are down.

However, her behaviour reminds me of the whole "I'd rather destroy the ship than let you do whatever it is that you're doing that I object to" crowd-pleasing set piece. Picard and Janeway were both guilty of this. Never mind getting some of your crew off the ship to safety or any of that mushy rubbish. I'm the captain and I've decided to sacrifice all of you for my hubris.

 

[DonIago]

Uh oh...if we're not careful we're going to end up talking about "Before Dishonor"...

 

[kimc]

However, her behaviour reminds me of the whole "I'd rather destroy the ship than let you do whatever it is that you're doing that I object to" crowd-pleasing set piece.

Well I was one in the crowd who was pleased by this. I remember thinking at the end of Part 1: "I hope in the season opener she kicks some "Equinox" ass!"

Picard and Janeway were both guilty of this. Never mind getting some of your crew off the ship to safety or any of that mushy rubbish. I'm the captain and I've decided to sacrifice all of you for my hubris.

Bingo! You can add Kirk to that list too.

 

[Deckerd]

Of course Kirk goes without mentioning since he did it all and got the girl.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

Uh oh...if we're not careful we're going to end up talking about "Before Dishonor"...

Oh no . . . There's more like this? Ugh. I don't remember that episode. Now I'm scared. Maybe I'll just stick to the first four seasons.

Wait. Wasn't Before Dishonor the book that she died in?

 

[DonIago]

Yes, yes it was.

And talking about it in the VOY forum...well, you're better off dropping a hand grenade.