Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

[FPAlpha]

You motherfucking bastards.

I began to worry as soon as the episode started because I suddenly realized we hadn't seen any footage of Karen and Foggy beyond the initial leaked imagery outside of their firm and at Josie's (aside from the one shot of Karen in a courtroom). So the moment Bullseye's shot hit Foggy, I knew how the rest would play out. Foggy is dead. Matt walks away from Daredevil. Karen leaves New York. Suddenly all of the pieces fit into place based on what was seen and not seen in the trailer and teasers.

And I hate it.

And yet I also get why they did it. But I still hate it.

They knew the fans wanted Karen and Foggy back, especially after the initial filming of the show before the restructuring. And still, Foggy and Karen are used only as a means to drive Matt's story towards a different position, in a different world, to deal with Mayor Fisk and other rising threats.

However, I think what annoys me the most is that Nikki James' Kirsten McDuffie and Clark Johnson's Cherry just step right into the same roles as Foggy and Karen, if not as intimately close (and yet Cherry already knows Matt's secret life and past, if less so). It's a frustrating situation since I've been a big fan of Johnson's for many years and James does well with her role, too, but it's hard not to see them as "the replacements." I'm going to do my best to try and look pass this whole set-up but it doesn't make it any less hard to accept.

As for the rest of the episodes and their plethora of stories, I'm loving Mayor Fisk and watching him navigate his newfound power and different role from Kingpin, while also dealing with his crumbling marriage with Vanessa. His relationship with her was always one of my favorite parts of the show, so I'm very curious to see how that aspect of the story plays out, especially since Matt's new girlfriend, Heather Glenn, just so happens to be their marriage counselor (that won't end well at all).

I don't know anything about White Tiger so I don't hold any preconceptions or loyalties to his portrayal, but I am curious to see his story play out, especially as someone who was trying to fill in the vacuum left behind by Daredevil (although he was already active prior to Foggy's assassination) and as part of Matt's newest street-level case that appears more sinister than from the onset (particularly with the Punisher skull tattoo...).

Lastly, I love how BB Urich is weaved into the two episodes, so far mostly focused on her street-level reporting about crime and Mayor Fisk's rise to power. I got goosebumps during her brief and rocky interview with him, especially with the knowledge that Fisk murdered her uncle. I wonder if that will ever resurface...

Overall, I'm enjoying what we're getting but I'm still smarting over the immediate dismissal of Karen and Foggy.

Over the years i have noticed that we often have the same thoughts about shows and that here is no different

I too HATE that they discarded the old gang so easily and i also get why they wanted or needed to start with a clean slate. It will take me a while to get over it and maybe i never will because i loved the OG gang and they were the heart of the Netflix show and a huge part of Matt Murdock's character.

However this reboot carries the same DNA as the original show and it's no surprise given that they brought over almost the entire team. It still feels disconnected to the MCU, which honestly is a good thing for me because Daredevil is street level and should remain there with only occasional references to the wider superhero universe.

What actually scared me a little is how Matt completely loses it in his Daredevil persona now, he goes really dark. Charlie Cox is so fantastic in that role and his anguish when he hears Foggy's heart stop i felt in my core but it really shocked me that he pushed Bullseye off the building. What was it that Fran Castle said to him? "You're one bad day away from becoming me"

I think that is a huge change for this show - Matt turns really dark when he becomes Daredevil now. I was a little shocked at this rage when he was fighting the cops in the second episode, instant dark frenzy and loss of control when he goes vigilante ( or in this case actual self defence) and i'm not sure that cop is actually alive. The fall and impact on the floor looked and sounded pretty serious to me.

Given that we know Bernthal is coming back in Punisher i wonder now if this dark Daredevil and Punisher will re-examine their personal stances on vigilante justice, i.e. i don't expect Castle to change but Matt certainly has and maybe he needs a refresher from the Punisher what it is to live on the other side of the coin.

Also - was that a Punisher tattoo on that cop's arm??

 

[CaptainWacky]

First episode was really messy in structure and pacing, I thought. First twenty minutes felt like a totally different show (probably because they were wrapping up the Netflix show) and the Matt/Bullseye fight, while decent, felt like it could have been better. Then they bring back Fisk but only allude to the events of Echo, which must have been confusing for anyone who didn't watch that show and is left wondering why he's a changed man now (if he really is.) Him announcing he's running for mayor and then being elected all happens in the second half of the episode and felt really fast to me, I would have liked to have seen more of the debates and such. But it was still pretty good, Cox and D'Onofrio have definitely still got it.

Second episode was paced much more like a regular episode of tv and I appreciated that. I'm pleased they're doing the thing where bad cops ar using Frank's symbol and it will be satisfying when he reacts to that.

 

[JD]

Over the years i have noticed that we often have the same thoughts about shows and that here is no different

I too HATE that they discarded the old gang so easily and i also get why they wanted or needed to start with a clean slate. It will take me a while to get over it and maybe i never will because i loved the OG gang and they were the heart of the Netflix show and a huge part of Matt Murdock's character.

However this reboot carries the same DNA as the original show and it's no surprise given that they brought over almost the entire team. It still feels disconnected to the MCU, which honestly is a good thing for me because Daredevil is street level and should remain there with only occasional references to the wider superhero universe.

What actually scared me a little is how Matt completely loses it in his Daredevil persona now, he goes really dark. Charlie Cox is so fantastic in that role and his anguish when he hears Foggy's heart stop i felt in my core but it really shocked me that he pushed Bullseye off the building. What was it that Fran Castle said to him? "You're one bad day away from becoming me"

I think that is a huge change for this show - Matt turns really dark when he becomes Daredevil now. I was a little shocked at this rage when he was fighting the cops in the second episode, instant dark frenzy and loss of control when he goes vigilante ( or in this case actual self defence) and i'm not sure that cop is actually alive. The fall and impact on the floor looked and sounded pretty serious to me.

Yeah, I was pretty shocked how brutal he was with the cops too. He's always been a bit more agressive than a lot of the other superheroes, but that was a whole other level.

Also - was that a Punisher tattoo on that cop's arm??

Yeah, most people are assuming that it's setting up Castle's return later in the season.

I was actually a little shocked how directly they referenced what happened to Fisk during Hawkeye and Echo. I had been expecting them to keep the references to anything that wasn't from the Netflix series to a minimum, but I guess that was such a huge story arc for Fisk that they couldn't really ignore it.

 

[FPAlpha]

Yeah, I was pretty shocked how brutal he was with the cops too. He's always been a bit more agressive than a lot of the other superheroes, but that was a whole other level.

Yeah, most people are assuming that it's setting up Castle's return later in the season.

I was actually a little shocked how directly they referenced what happened to Fisk during Hawkeye and Echo. I had been expecting them to keep the references to anything that wasn't from the Netflix series to a minimum, but I guess that was such a huge story arc for Fisk that they couldn't really ignore it.

What do you mean with Hawkeye and Echo being Netflix references?

The producers have stated that they wanted to connect the Netflix show to the MCU version, so most of it basically carried over. D'Onofrio even called it the 4th season they never got on Netflix.

I think that's good apart from the disbandment of the original gang. Reading some articles they have teased Foggy and Karen being set to appear in season 2 but i can only imagine this as flashbacks, which will hurt even more. I doubt they'd pull off the comic trope and set it up as some kind of false flag operation and that Foggy was never killed.

 

[JD]

No I meant that I was surprised that they included the references to Echo and Hawkeye, because they were not part of the Netflix series.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No I meant that I was surprised that they included the references to Echo and Hawkeye, because they were not part of the Netflix series.

Why would that be surprising? They never said the show was only building on the Netflix series.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Hell, there was a Spider-Man reference!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

What actually scared me a little is how Matt completely loses it in his Daredevil persona now, he goes really dark. Charlie Cox is so fantastic in that role and his anguish when he hears Foggy's heart stop i felt in my core but it really shocked me that he pushed Bullseye off the building. What was it that Frank Castle said to him? "You're one bad day away from becoming me."

I think that is a huge change for this show - Matt turns really dark when he becomes Daredevil now. I was a little shocked at this rage when he was fighting the cops in the second episode, instant dark frenzy and loss of control when he goes vigilante ( or in this case actual self defence) and i'm not sure that cop is actually alive. The fall and impact on the floor looked and sounded pretty serious to me.

Given that we know Bernthal is coming back in Punisher i wonder now if this dark Daredevil and Punisher will re-examine their personal stances on vigilante justice, i.e. i don't expect Castle to change but Matt certainly has and maybe he needs a refresher from the Punisher what it is to live on the other side of the coin.

That's an excellent insight (quote emphasis mine). I hope you're right and the show specifically circles back to Frank's comment to Matt. Considering the intensity of that cop fight and what is teased for the rest of the season, it seems like a likely scenario.

If that's the case, then I'll be a bit more forgiving of killing Foggy, but like you said, I feel like there could've been a better way for Matt to have that One Bad Day without killing Foggy or Karen and removing from the main storyline.

Hell, there was a Spider-Man reference!

And from Kingpin's lips! I know Vincent D'Onofrio wants to appear in a Spider-Man film. This needs to happen!

 

[FPAlpha]

No I meant that I was surprised that they included the references to Echo and Hawkeye, because they were not part of the Netflix series.

Not really when you have followed the production drama or read some articles. After the retooling of the show they explicitly aimed to continue the Netflix show but also started the ball rolling with a slow burn MCU introduction.

It was nicely handled and although Echo kind of felt flat to me his appearance in Hawkeye was great.

Controversial opinion though - the show would do well to build up some other antagonists for Matt too. As great as D'Onofrio is and the Kingpin is so well written it's now been 3 seasons where he was the main antagonist ( 2 on Netflix and this new one).

 

[David cgc]

No I meant that I was surprised that they included the references to Echo and Hawkeye, because they were not part of the Netflix series.

How things have changed. I remember back when Hawkeye was on there was a lot of talk that it wasn’t the same Fisk as in the Netflix shows, because of the MarvelTV of it all. People were even dismissing a specific reference to the Daredevil Netflix as just being fanservice and not indicating that the Netflix shows “counted” for the normal MCU.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Controversial opinion though - the show would do well to build up some other antagonists for Matt too. As great as D'Onofrio is and the Kingpin is so well written it's now been 3 seasons where he was the main antagonist ( 2 on Netflix and this new one).

We know that Muse will play a major role in both seasons...and we still don't know who is playing the character.

 

[Tosk]

Am I crazy or did Fisk not have the facial scarring the whole time?

Or maybe it just wasn't visible until he got a close up in broad daylight.

 

[Xerxes82]

We know that Muse will play a major role in both seasons...and we still don't know who is playing the character.

Oh, I think we've got a pretty good idea, actually.

The guy who came up to Heather at her book signing and told her "I need help."

 

[Xerxes82]

Ok, so I've rewatched the first episode and I have some thoughts.

- I'm relatively sure that Vanessa sent Bullseye after Foggy/Karen/Matt. When we meet her again for the first time, the scene begins lingering on a painting on the wall. A painting of a holy man crying out in anguish as he holds a dying, bloody figure. This feels on the nose.

I don't know if that will ever come up over the course of the rest of the season. The main tension seems to be between Wilson and Vanessa, I'm not sure how much adding Matt to things is necessary. But if she was willing to go against Wilson's agreement with Matt, if she was willing to refuse to honor Wilson's word, her husband may not be okay with learning his wife made a liar of him.

As an aside, this, if it is the case, is comic accurate. Like the trial of the White Tiger, it comes from Ed Brubaker's run. Vanessa had Foggy killed while Matt was in prison, and it even featured Matt listening to his friend's heart stop in much the same way this did. Though, to be fair, it later turned out that Foggy was still alive and Vanessa had only faked it. Which feels like it's probably too much to hope for here.

- Bullseye executed his attack in the way to most terrorize Karen and to most hurt Matt. He deliberately wounds Foggy in such a way that it will take time to be fatal. As opposed to the cops who he straight up headshots and is done with it. Then he moves in to kill Karen face to face, despite having a clear shot from his sniper perch, just so he can drop the throwback "Hi Karen" line out. She is ultimately saved by Matt, obviously. But the whole attack sums up Dex's rage at this trio, to the point that he intentionally draws out their pain and misery for his own pleasure.

Also, kudos to Bethel for some great acting in that sequence. Bullseye's crazy eyes in the stairwell, the twisted glee when Matt hears Foggy die. He doesn't get much to work with, but he really works it well.

- So much Brubaker. Muse and Mayor Fisk are from the later Soule run, but there's a lot of Bru here as well. Which gives me hope that season 2 may finally adapt parts of Bru's Mister Fear story from that same run. I just really want to see Mr Fear adapted. And that arc also featured Gladiator, and I'd love to see them bring Melvin Potter back as well.

My first impression was more negative than may have been fair. I actually felt the first episode held up really well on rewatch. I'll have to rewatch episode 2 and see if my opinion is similarly altered.

 

[FPAlpha]

Ok, so I've rewatched the first episode and I have some thoughts.

- I'm relatively sure that Vanessa sent Bullseye after Foggy/Karen/Matt. When we meet her again for the first time, the scene begins lingering on a painting on the wall. A painting of a holy man crying out in anguish as he holds a dying, bloody figure. This feels on the nose.

I don't know if that will ever come up over the course of the rest of the season. The main tension seems to be between Wilson and Vanessa, I'm not sure how much adding Matt to things is necessary. But if she was willing to go against Wilson's agreement with Matt, if she was willing to refuse to honor Wilson's word, her husband may not be okay with learning his wife made a liar of him.

As an aside, this, if it is the case, is comic accurate. Like the trial of the White Tiger, it comes from Ed Brubaker's run. Vanessa had Foggy killed while Matt was in prison, and it even featured Matt listening to his friend's heart stop in much the same way this did. Though, to be fair, it later turned out that Foggy was still alive and Vanessa had only faked it. Which feels like it's probably too much to hope for here.

- Bullseye executed his attack in the way to most terrorize Karen and to most hurt Matt. He deliberately wounds Foggy in such a way that it will take time to be fatal. As opposed to the cops who he straight up headshots and is done with it. Then he moves in to kill Karen face to face, despite having a clear shot from his sniper perch, just so he can drop the throwback "Hi Karen" line out. She is ultimately saved by Matt, obviously. But the whole attack sums up Dex's rage at this trio, to the point that he intentionally draws out their pain and misery for his own pleasure.

Also, kudos to Bethel for some great acting in that sequence. Bullseye's crazy eyes in the stairwell, the twisted glee when Matt hears Foggy die. He doesn't get much to work with, but he really works it well.

- So much Brubaker. Muse and Mayor Fisk are from the later Soule run, but there's a lot of Bru here as well. Which gives me hope that season 2 may finally adapt parts of Bru's Mister Fear story from that same run. I just really want to see Mr Fear adapted. And that arc also featured Gladiator, and I'd love to see them bring Melvin Potter back as well.

My first impression was more negative than may have been fair. I actually felt the first episode held up really well on rewatch. I'll have to rewatch episode 2 and see if my opinion is similarly altered.

Good points, i hadn't thought about Vanessa being the one who possibly ordered the kill.

If that turns out to be i fully expect this to come around and with an already dark Daredevil this won't end well.

I also believe the tension between Vanessa and Fisk won't be resolved as easy. They both have changed, she got a taste so to speak of what Fisk used to have and loved but Fisk has moved on somewhat and is looking for a different power outlet which doesn't involve crime as much (though he's not beyond coming back to his old ways to resolve problems). If she indeed broke the agreement between Fisk and Matt and Matt finds out things will blow up.

I don't know how i would feel if they pulled a comicbook move and have Foggy come back like that - as much as i hate that they killed him off it would feel like cheap and lazy writing ( something that drove me off superhero comicbooks to a great deal, the constant "ressurections").

 

[Turtletrekker]

Oh, I think we've got a pretty good idea, actually.

The guy who came up to Heather at her book signing and told her "I need help."

I didn't even consider that before, but you're probably hitting the nail on the head right here.

 

[HIjol]

FOGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGY! Damn that hurt.

D'Onofrio continues to be spellbinding as Fisk. I'd like to see more of what made him want to run for Mayor in the first place. Everything about his and Vanessa's problems were very relatable and realistic.

I loved McDuffie setting Matt up. He's so clueless sometimes.

Good Thread!
Just starting DD…we shall see…

 

[DigificWriter]

As a Spoiled 'outside observer' (since I'm waiting to watch Born Again until I get to it organically), I think it's premature to assume anything when it comes to the Foggy and Karen of it all.

 

[Nerys Myk]

We know that Muse will play a major role in both seasons...and we still don't know who is playing the character.

Joe Pesci. He's amusing.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Huh.

Spoiler: Season 2

Eldon Henson will be returning. I wonder if it will be flashbacks or if there was more to that opening scene than we were led to believe?

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 Will Bring Back Karen Page and Foggy Nelson, Marvel Confirms - IGN

Daredevil: Born Again Season 2 is officially coming to Disney+, and when it arrives, it’ll bring back two fan-favorite faces from the series' original Netflix run.

www.ign.com