Curious about Janeway/Chakotay...

[firecrackerrrr]

I've been a fan since 1995 but haven't watched Voyager since it ended so recently I started to watch the show again. Got all the seasons and I'm almost done with season 7. I thought watching it as an adult would give me a greater understanding of why fans "ship" Chakotay and Janeway together (among many other reasons...). But if anything, it made me confused even more.

Now, I know there's tons of hardcore J/C fans out there so I don't mean to insult you at all. I'm just curious as to why you adore these two characters so much? Because Chakotay was the only character the writers hinted at being something possibly more permanent for Janeway (romantically speaking)? Because there was no one else you could ship? Or did you genuinely, seriously see chemistry there?

I was always indifferent when it came to Chakotay. I never liked or disliked him. I now lean a bit more on the "dislike" side simply because his character bores me. It's underdeveloped. And the handful of episodes where we do get to learn something new about him, they're either boring or they show character traits in Chakotay that annoy the shit out of me. He doesn't really have a backbone. He isn't charming. Most of his "stories" are laughable (which is too bad since they really could've pulled LOTS of fascinating material when it came to Native American history). Not to mention the fact that he wasn't believable as someone who's even somewhat spiritual.

Then of course there's the non-existent romantic relationship between Janeway and him. I see no chemistry whatsoever. Watching the show again for the first time in years I was excited to watch some episodes I was very fond of as a child ("Threshold" comes to mind YOU CAN'T hold this against me. I was a preteen!!!). One of those episodes was also Resolutions. My god, I expected it to be funny now as an adult but it made me cringe in the worst way possible and wish I could erase that memory permanently. It was 45 minutes of constant cringing. It wasn't just the writing, but also the forced chemistry between those two. It honestly baffles me that anyone can see something between these two.

If there's anyone I personally "ship", it'd be Seven/Janeway. I'm not saying that cause I'm a lesbian either. I am, mind you. But I'm not biased. In fact, my favourite OTP's have always been Scully/Mulder, CapricaSix/Gaius, Roslin/Adama etc etc. In fact I don't even see that much chemistry between Seven and Janeway but it's infinitely better and more believable than J/C. That said, frankly I DO wish they had found someone for Janeway who'd be there for at least a season (and who would hopefully die because I always enjoy watching Janeway emotionally conflicted. I enjoy it because I find that her true strength always comes out and she deals with stuff like that in such an admirable and inspiring way)

Anyway, I think I needed to let this one out. Again, no offense to J/C shippers. I just don't understand that one atttt alllll.

 

[T.D. Possum]

It's a matter of interpretation, really. I don't ship Janeway with anyone, but I enjoy both J/C and J/7 fanfics. In fact, I'm made both J/C and J/7 fan vids myself LOL. Some people look at a certain interaction and see friendship; others look at the same thing and see romantic love. I don't think that there are many J/C OR J/7 scenes that can't be subject to more than one interpretation.

PS: I love Threshold! Campy Trek at its finest!

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't mind "Threshold" either. It's total nonsense, but so is a lot of other Star Trek I like.

I just read the novel Full Circle, where Chakotay slept with Janeway shortly before her death. It seemed wrong and out of the blue after they had zero going on in the previous novels, and the whole nasty Seven/Chakotay thing (which has to be the worst pairing in Trek history) in the series.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

If you can't see it, and when you see it it makes you cringe, do you really think I can explain it to you?

I never thought of them as a potential couple until "Elogium", then again it took me that long to notice Robert Beltran had the cutest dimples in all of trekdom.

We see through season 1 and more so season 2 how alone Janeway is, and how she's thinking of releasing her stranglehold on the thought of Mark waiting patiently at home ("Tuvix").

Then that cringeful episode followed... [ETA a new video since the old one isn't available]

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I know that there have been heartfelt moments between Janeway and Seven, but the only time Janeway cried over Seven was when she thought Seven was dying. The only time IIRC Janeway ever cried in this series when someone's LIFE wasn't a stake was when she invited Chakotay to take her hand on "New Earth".

Janeway touches everyone, Janeway seduces everyone on this show, its one of her "command" traits, and yet when it comes to Chakotay he's the only one (after Kes leaves) that she routinely confides in, the only one who squires her about on his arm, the only one who routinely is invited into her inner sanctum alone for dinner and conversation. The only one she loaned her fiance's engagement gift to, while on Voyager.

These two know that "this way there be dragons", and so while on Voyager they try to be ever so professional, ever so platonic, but then something happens and suddenly an omnipotent being wants to mate with your "Captain" or a BORGlet collective is having foreplay with your Commander, and you realize it "bothers" you?

I think if Riker thought Q wanted to mate with Picard, he'd have just laughed, or if Miss Q wanted to do the same he would have just said, "Atta boy!"

Why be bothered...if there's nothing else going on between them?

Then suddenly your "almost lover" is torn from your side, and months later when you find the gift he tried unsuccessfully to give you for your birthday you don't recycle it like you had ordered him to do. Instead you wear it as a reminder, as a talisman, as a promise to do everything in your power to right this wrong perpetuated upon you and your crew and your "almost" love.

And when you return from another mission, and find not only your crew but your heart's desire kidnapped, you do everything within your power to bring them back... despite the pain / the consequences of seeing your obsession in the arms of another man, despite hearing the joy in her voice when she tells you they are moving in together. A man who's known her barely 3 weeks has traveled further into her life than you have in over 6 years, and now you are supposed to simply rip them apart?

Yes.

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You ask why we see J/C... because JANEWAY sees J/C.

From "Shattered"

JANEWAY: Mind if I ask you one last question?
CHAKOTAY: Will I have to break the Temporal Prime Directive to answer it?
JANEWAY: Maybe, just a little. For two people who started off as enemies it seems we get to know each other pretty well, so I've been wondering. Just how close do we get?
CHAKOTAY: Let's just say there are some barriers we never cross.
JANEWAY: See you in the future.

So many people see that ep as the door slamming on J/C, but I don't. I see it as the only way Janeway could tell Chakotay that she sees them as more than a power couple, after all the things he's told her about them. I see it as Kathryn giving her junior officer permission to break the fraternization rules... because the younger woman has ASSUMED her older self has already done so.

CHAKOTAY: We've been down this road before.
JANEWAY: Have we?
CHAKOTAY: You wanting answers to questions you shouldn't ask.
JANEWAY: But something did happen, outside the normal space-time continuum. It's strange thinking there's a piece of your life you don't know anything about.
CHAKOTAY: Sounds a lot like the future.
JANEWAY: Any predictions?
CHAKOTAY: Only that in a few minutes this bottle will be empty.

In university, my professor used to say, "I'll see it, WHEN I believe it."

Suffice to say, J/Cer's. J/7er's, J/T or BLT or P or K or N or EMHer's all say the same thing.

I see J/C because I believe in it.

 

[kimc]

I was a late J/C bloomer. I saw the chemistry from Season 1 onward but didn't care much for the idea at first. What got me interested was the scene in "Timeless" where Janeway looks Chakotay in the eyes over a candlelit dinner and says "We've waited long enough." That moment got me thinking it would be a good idea.

I actually thought it was a pretty unique thought until I discovered the world of on-line J/C fanfiction. Whoah! Now that was a revelation...

 

[Shatnertage]

I'm not a shipper at all (I've only recently even learned what the term means), but my wife and I both think that Chakotay loves Janeway, on some level at least. We haven't seen the whole run of the show yet, but after the woman warrior speech, I don't know what other explanation there could be. He built her a bathtub and gave her backrubs. And when got a scare over her nearly dying, he brought her a rose and had champagne with her on a moonlit holodeck cruise.

I don't find Chakotay to be unlikable at all. He seems like a solid guy, good to have around. He'd probably help you if you needed to move a couch or something.

In general, I think Janeway's intimacy (I don't mean physical) with Chakotay is much different than the intimacy she shows with Tuvok.

 

[Kai Winn]

i rewatched persistence of vision recently, i fine episode of season 2 where an alien plays with the heads of the crew and they fall into a coma. i thought it established who loves whom, janeway loves mark, blt loves chakotay etc. until mark's letter arrived in 4th season's hunters, janeway certainly didn't plan to start another relationship. a wonderfully played scene in voyager's elevator, where mark took janeway to task about kissing that holoman. that was the headstrong woman's achilles heel.

 

[vas2009]

J'Rulz said it best. I am a shipper. I believe.

Toward the end I was ok with Janeway just getting nookie. Only because I gave up hope. I found out through Fanfic that C/7 happens and I was so dissapointed I couldn't finish the series. Then I rewatched it YEARS later Years ago and finished it.

Janeway and Chakotay had great chemistry. I felt that the openings were all over the place and the one thing I could shake Goddess Mulgrew for is for interfering with that. Then they get together in the books and they kill her off.

THANK THE HEAVENS FOR FANFIC AND IT'S WRITTERS.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

I see J/C because I believe in it.

See that's great and all but where you see chemistry, I see an extremely poorly executed plot device that failed miserably and that they gave up on for a reason.

Also technically Kes didn't die in The Gift but Janeway cried and it was probably one of the few crying scenes (generally speaking, not just within this show) that truly broke my heart and I had tears in my eyes watching it - and I'm not even a fan of Kes (though I don't dislike her) Always been a Seven girl. The Chakotay thing though? Never bought it. I don't ship Janeway/Seven either but I could easily see how that would be something people would be into because at least they had chemistry. Chakotay's character was truly so very one dimensional. One of my best friends' is a well established writer and she just watched Voyager with me (again we're at season 7) - this was her first time watching it. She loves the show, minus some inconsistencies. The Doctor is her favourite. Followed by Janeway. Followed by Seven. All characters that have developed wonderfully. But she can't get over Chakotay's character and how truly underdeveloped he remained till the very end. Of course that's no one's fault but the writers'. It still doesn't change the fact (or rather our opinion) that it was poorly executed. Performance-wise, writing-wise etc etc.

I appreciate how much effort you put into responding but I must say that like the episodes that tried to convince me of that bore of a relationship, this too failed in a similar fashion. So again, while I appreciate your input, you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. I just don't see it I suppose.

ETA: That last paragraph sounds rude but it's absolutely not meant to be. I'm just saying I don't see it. My apologies if I offended you. I'm on antibiotics and just had my foot re-stitched up D:

My wife and I both think that Chakotay loves Janeway, on some level at least.

Oh I've no doubt about that. I'm sure he does. In fact, I always considered it to be more one sided and whenever Janeway made those small moves it felt more like she's throwing him a bone rather than giving in to something that could be considered mutual. Just my opinion of course

Janeway and Chakotay had great chemistry. I felt that the openings were all over the place and the one thing I could shake Goddess Mulgrew for is for interfering with that. Then they get together in the books and they kill her off.

LOL when I met Kate, granted I was a bit tipsy, I said "I don't know if you had any say in this, but if you were against Janeway hookin' up with Chakotay and if you had anything to do with that never happening THEN THANK YOU." Obnoxious, I know. Sorry. She laughed her head off though so that's something.

 

[vas2009]

I just don't see it I suppose.

That just it. There are some people who actually go for C/7... I just don't see it either. I guess it is one of those things you have to feel.

Janeway and Chakotay had great chemistry. I felt that the openings were all over the place and the one thing I could shake Goddess Mulgrew for is for interfering with that. Then they get together in the books and they kill her off.

LOL when I met Kate, granted I was a bit tipsy, I said "I don't know if you had any say in this, but if you were against Janeway hookin' up with Chakotay and if you had anything to do with that never happening THEN THANK YOU." Obnoxious, I know. Sorry. She laughed her head off though so that's something.[/QUOTE]


LOL... I can't get tipsy around Kate... I might get arrested and this is what we are trying to avoid. Although it might be better then passing out and missing the whole thing.

 

[Deckerd]

The only time IIRC Janeway ever cried in this series when someone's LIFE wasn't a stake was when she invited Chakotay to take her hand on "New Earth".

She teared up when she was saying goodbye to Kes.

 

[T.D. Possum]

The only time IIRC Janeway ever cried in this series when someone's LIFE wasn't a stake was when she invited Chakotay to take her hand on "New Earth".

She teared up when she was saying goodbye to Kes.

She also cried at her own funeral, when she was touched by the nice eulogies from Kim and Torres.

I'm on a mission now, to think of other Janeway teary moments.

LOL... I can't get tipsy around Kate... I might get arrested and this is what we are trying to avoid. Although it might be better then passing out and missing the whole thing.

Remember, Vas, just keep repeating your mantra: "Deep breaths and BRACE FOR IMPACT."

LOL. I had to look twice to make sure I typed "breaths" instead of "breasts". You really should get a new lawyer.

In fact, I always considered it to be more one sided and whenever Janeway made those small moves it felt more like she's throwing him a bone rather than giving in to something that could be considered mutual. Just my opinion of course

This is my opinion, too, more or less. I also think that she liked flirting with him, and possibly speculated once or twice on taking things a bit further - but came to her senses.

 

[vas2009]

The only time IIRC Janeway ever cried in this series when someone's LIFE wasn't a stake was when she invited Chakotay to take her hand on "New Earth".

She teared up when she was saying goodbye to Kes.

She also cried at her own funeral, when she was touched by the nice eulogies from Kim and Torres.

I'm on a mission now, to think of other Janeway teary moments.

LOL... I can't get tipsy around Kate... I might get arrested and this is what we are trying to avoid. Although it might be better then passing out and missing the whole thing.

Remember, Vas, just keep repeating your mantra: "Deep breaths and BRACE FOR IMPACT."

LOL. I had to look twice to make sure I typed "breaths" instead of "breasts". You really should get a new lawyer.

OMG I had to double check I was convinced you wrote breasts... maybe it is my dislexia... yeah thats it. Is that a good enough defence?

She Teared up and dropped one (right eye down right cheek) when she said goodbye to Jaffen.

 

[T.D. Possum]

She looked as if she was on the verge of tears quite a lot in the early eps. Phage, Eye of the Needle, etc. Or is that just me?

 

[exodus]

Not a shipper here because I don't think by s7, J/C was ever going to happen.

I think Chakotay had a thing for Janeway but she kept putting him off, so he got tired of waiting and lost interest in her. IMO you can see it "Fair Haven" ans again in "Workforce". Especially in "Workforce" where he had every oppertunity to tell her his feelings, he didn't. There wasn't any regret or hesitation in his words as if feelings still existed.

Chakotay should have been paired up with the Engineer Ensign from Equinox.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

LOL... I can't get tipsy around Kate... I might get arrested and this is what we are trying to avoid. Although it might be better then passing out and missing the whole thing.

Without saying too much, I used to work for a major film production company when I lived in LA. She came in for a few meetings at one point but I didn't really speak to her much then (frankly, I was about to black out when I saw her. The conversation between my boss and I (who knew I worshipped her) went something like:

Me: *GASP*
Boss: *nods*
Me: Is that...?
Boss (interrupting): Yup!
Me: *GASP*



About a week later we had an event to attend to and again, she was there and by the time I spotted her I already had two glasses of some delicious Californian Cabernet Sauvignon. Have in mind, I'm extremely light-weight. So I had no say in the matter. I drank it before I even knew she'd be there. But it's all good cause at least I didn't poop bricks when speaking to her. I was all "Sooooo........ *wink wink*"

 

[vas2009]

^^^^


Nice!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I see J/C because I believe in it.

See that's great and all but where you see chemistry, I see an extremely poorly executed plot device that failed miserably and that they gave up on for a reason.

Also technically Kes didn't die in The Gift but Janeway cried and it was probably one of the few crying scenes (generally speaking, not just within this show) that truly broke my heart and I had tears in my eyes watching it - and I'm not even a fan of Kes (though I don't dislike her)

I think Mulgrew has said time and again that they gave up on the relationship because she didn't want Janeway in such a relationship.

Beltran also campaigned against it by season 5, because he felt his character was being spurned too often and should move onto greener pastures.

Thanks for pointing out that when Janeway LOST Kes through her evolution to a higher plane, when she lost EVERYONE during her own death, and when she lost Jaffen, she cried. She was on the verge of tears in "Prime Factors" when she realized Tuvok lied to her.

But I still think its significant that she wasn't losing anyone when she offered her hand to Chakotay on New Earth. Those tears she dropped meant something else, to the woman on the other side of the table.

Janewayrulz! wrote

If you can't see it, and when you see it it makes you cringe, do you really think I can explain it to you?

firecrackerrrr wrote

I appreciate how much effort you put into responding but I must say that like the episodes that tried to convince me of that bore of a relationship, this too failed in a similar fashion. So again, while I appreciate your input, you didn't tell me anything I didn't know. I just don't see it I suppose.

ETA: That last paragraph sounds rude but it's absolutely not meant to be. I'm just saying I don't see it. My apologies if I offended you. I'm on antibiotics and just had my foot re-stitched up D:

Well, I guess I should have listened to myself and just stopped after the first line.

As for "sounding rude", I'll try not to take offense.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

^ Okay.

 

[T.D. Possum]

Thanks for pointing out that when Janeway LOST Kes through her evolution to a higher plane, when she lost EVERYONE during her own death, and when she lost Jaffen, she cried. She was on the verge of tears in "Prime Factors" when she realized Tuvok lied to her.

But I still think its significant that she wasn't losing anyone when she offered her hand to Chakotay on New Earth. Those tears she dropped meant something else, to the woman on the other side of the table.

OHHHHH! You were talking about this being the only time she cried "happy tears". Or at least "I'm touched" tears. Now I see your point.