Constitution Class, why replace her with the Excelsior Class?

[Brainsucker]

Let's discuss the reason. I mean the lore reason, not the behind the scene one. Why Starfleet needs to replace the aging Constitution with the Excelsior Class. So what make them different, beside the different of appearance? So why don't build a new Constitution and put new tech inside them? Why Excelsior?

What weapons that you can put on Excelsior that you can't put on the Constitution Class? What about the performance? The size? Number of weapon? number of transporter? So what?


Discuss

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure whether the Excelsior was ever intended to replace the Constitution, or did.

She's just a newer design, but might be built for a completely different role. A battleship, rather than a replacement heavy cruiser, perhaps. Or then purely an experiment at fitting the huge transwarp engine onto a starship, meaning the ship has to be huge as well, and never mind operational needs.

In any case, what we see fitted is fairly easily discerned. Twenty phasers on the saucer, rather than twelve. Four torpedo tubes rather than two. No idea whether those are "stronger" or "heavier" individually, or even if this is a meaningful distinction in phaser or torpedo technology.

FWIW, onscreen diagrams show the E-B having "Type 8" phasers, and Type in hand phasers doesn't seem to indicate new vs. old, advanced vs. primitive, but simply big vs. small. Did Kirk's ships have Type 8, too? Or Type 7, or Type 9? We just plain don't know. Backstage books such as the DS9 Tech Manual offer Type 7 for the Miranda, probably suggesting like for Kirk's ships, but this stuff was never onscreen. And the various Miranda diagrams onscreen are unreadable even in HD...

The Lakota, related to this type, demonstrates additional phasers in other locations in "Paradise Lost". We can actually see the emitters at the bottom of the secondary hull, but Kirk's ship already had that quartet down there. Yet the DS9 episode also shows phaser beams coming from the bulge between the nacelles, and from the sides of the big boxes on the saucer (impulse engines, shuttlebays, air conditioning units, who knows). Certainly a big ship like that could afford to mount at least that many phasers.

What else does the Excelsior offer? More interior space, obviously - even if the transwarp engine takes up all the extra room in the secondary hull, it's unlikely to hog any space in the newer, bigger saucer. The shuttle facilities might not be much bigger, but one wonders about that enclosed, empty space at the lower bottom of the secondary hull. There are some greeblies inside, and a "forcefield" glow in ST6 although not in any other instance. A bay for a large auxiliary craft or several? A cargo hold? A self-repair kit, with an extensible spacedock stored inside? An essential piece of transwarp machinery?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I never once saw the Excelsior-class as being a replacement for the Constitution-class, just the newest design of the day with all the latest bells and whistles.

I like to think that Starfleet shipbuilding policy leans more towards cranking out new designs rather than updating older ones, although there are notable exceptions.

 

[Timo]

It might be there's little need for updating in general.

Starfleet operates in an environment where extreme "forward" and "backward" compatibility is needed: its ships have to be compatible with completely alien designs in order to meaningfully interact with those! So a ship Starfleet builds for itself in 2161 might automatically be capable of meaningfully operating side by side with a ship Starfleet will build in 2561, no upgrading needed.

Starfleet also operates in a diverse threat environment. Even if a ship built in 2161 can only cope with opponents and challenges on the 2160s level, there's no reason to retire this ship in 2561 - because the universe still remains chock full of opponents and challenges that are at the 2160s level.

Also, Starfleet is always short of ships: even in calmest peacetime, the cavalry arrives either at the nick of time, or then too late to save the colony/civilian ship/galaxy/universe of the week, and there's never a chance of timely reinforcements. Retiring a ship, any ship, would be foolish unless there were pressing reasons. And so far, we don't know of any such reasons (although we do observe the continuing ship shortage, which might suggest the reasons exist despite not being known).

In any case, the Excelsior sees a lot of use in the TNG era, so apparently Starfleet hit paydirt there. They wouldn't have built so many, over such a long time period (if registries are any indication), unless the design proved useful early on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Citizen Cook]

Well in ST4 we are introduced to the Enterprise A.
I was a little surprised that the new Enterprise was basically the same as the last one.
The one with 20 year old technology. My feeling from watching ST2 was that the Enterprise was being retired not only because it was 20 years old, but that it was out of date technologically speaking as well.

I was expecting Kirk to receive an excelsior-class ship at the end of ST4.
And of course the Enterprse B is an excelsior-class ship.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

In TNG and DS9, we saw many Excelsiors and even Mirandas/Soyuz's, but no Connies.

This may have been due to a "behind the scenes" reason like they didn't want to confuse the viewer (is this possible since we saw Galaxy's on DS9?), or dilute the grandeur that was the Enterprise or E-A.

Or, it makes it likely they did replace the Constitutions with Excelsiors as far as a populous class of ship in that size/configuration.

 

[Richard Baker]

I know in real world it is due to the production timing, but it seems odd that we only saw one Excelsior ship besides the Enterprise-B that had all those additional features. The Lakota was touted as being a new and powerful ship in that episode. If the Enterprise-B had those features then there is a huge assembly run for many decades of the stock Excelsior class hull, I wonder why? If it was a terrible variant they abandoned early then why the Lakota?

 

[Shark]

Well, beyond the production reasons, the Constitution class design was supposedly forty years old as of the introduction of the Excelsior (2285) and the refit Constitution was fifteen years old by that time, Starfleet could have felt that it was an obsolete design and phased it out.

 

[SicOne]

I don't know that Starfleet necessarily phased-out the Constitution, but they probably just didn't build any more new ones, or shifted that production line over to the Miranda-class. IIRC developments in transwarp drive led to transwarp not being effective as advertised but did lead to the higher warp speeds of TNG-time (the cubing of warp speeds, i.e. Warp 5 = 5x5x5 = 125x lightspeed) over TOS-era (the doubling of warp speeds, i.e. Warp 5 = 5x5 = 25x lightspeed) and the Excelsior design was perfect for Starfleet needs, relegating the Constitution from front-line exploration to more of a support mode. There may have well been many Constitution-refits around during TNG and DS9, just not in the areas we saw being operated in.

 

[Avro Arrow]

What else does the Excelsior offer? More interior space, obviously - even if the transwarp engine takes up all the extra room in the secondary hull, it's unlikely to hog any space in the newer, bigger saucer.

And yet they still had to bunk *senior officers* in a cramped barracks-style environment, for some reason.

In TNG and DS9, we saw many Excelsiors and even Mirandas/Soyuz's, but no Connies.

I like to think that the Connie wreckage we saw in BOBW actually came from one.

 

[Brainsucker]

I never once saw the Excelsior-class as being a replacement for the Constitution-class, just the newest design of the day with all the latest bells and whistles.

I like to think that Starfleet shipbuilding policy leans more towards cranking out new designs rather than updating older ones, although there are notable exceptions.

Well, this is the problem that I want to discuss with everyone here. We know that Constitution class is highly upgrade-able. We can see that from the bridge of the days. I mean they always change the bridge model in every ST movies that we watched.

So if the Excelsior can equipped with Phaser type 8, what make Constitution can't equipped with Phaser type 8?

It just like Lakota. We know that Lakota can carry Quantum Torpedo, so why build the new Sovereign Class?

Well, I just want to discuss this matter. I'm sure that there is some reason that make the Starfleet doing that. There must be some new technology that can't be fitted into the Constitution class.

 

[Timo]

I was a little surprised that the new Enterprise was basically the same as the last one. The one with 20 year old technology.

I guess Starfleet had no incentive to give Kirk a new and efficient ship.

Yes, he was a big hero and all that. But he had also broken every rule in the books and was deserving of punishment at least as much as reward. If the general public could be made happy by giving Kirk a museum ship, that'd be win-win all around. And it would keep Kirk from performing further embarrassing heroics, what with his ship being too decrepit to move.

Or, it makes it likely they did replace the Constitutions with Excelsiors as far as a populous class of ship in that size/configuration.

Or then the role of the Constitutions was discontinued forever, and the role of the Excelsiors introduced. A century ago, everybody who was somebody had battleships. After WWII, what replaced these battleships? Nothing did. Instead, their mission of king-of-the-seas was split up, so that ballistic missile subs and strike carriers now threatened the coasts, attack and cruise missile subs threatened enemy surface assets, etc.

Indeed, after WWII, "Kirk's own ship type" disappeared, too - there's no niche for "heavy cruisers" in today's naval warfare.

all those additional features

The boxes on the saucer and the cheek fairings on the secondary hull might simply be "additional space", and different eras would see different "features" installed within. In every era, there'd be one or two ships that would carry these extra features (say, flagship gear), and as the result be inferior in performance (extra mass and bulk hurts them). In the Lakota era, the extra space would be needed for installing the better guns, even if it otherwise hobbled the ship - a fair price to pay.

And yet they still had to bunk *senior officers* in a cramped barracks-style environment, for some reason.

Sleeping in their full uniforms, too. So probably that was more like a junior officer ready room in "Flashback". Or another thing the feverish Tuvok got wrong in his restless dream.

The "actual" senior quarters in ST6 were not particularly barracks-like.

We know that Constitution class is highly upgrade-able.

Or then it has used up all of its upgrade-ability in its four decades of service and now is maxed out and has to go?

So if the Excelsior can equipped with Phaser type 8, what make Constitution can't equipped with Phaser type 8?

Perhaps Type 8 is bigger?

(Although actually it isn't - in "Preemptive Strike", Gul Evek grumbles that the Maquis small craft are packing Type 8 phasers.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I never once saw the Excelsior-class as being a replacement for the Constitution-class, just the newest design of the day with all the latest bells and whistles.

I like to think that Starfleet shipbuilding policy leans more towards cranking out new designs rather than updating older ones, although there are notable exceptions.

Well, this is the problem that I want to discuss with everyone here. We know that Constitution class is highly upgrade-able. We can see that from the bridge of the days. I mean they always change the bridge model in every ST movies that we watched.

Which may have nothing to do with the rest of the ship. Bridge modules may be the easiest things to swap out if they're plug-in units that can be quickly changed at a dockyard whenever a new bridge model comes along. Other changes could be merely cosmetic ones or simply switches to new standardized models that don't radically change the performance of the ship, but keeps it from becoming obsolete a little longer.

An argument could be made that perhaps Constitution-class ships weren't so highly upgradeable. Maybe new systems were introduced that would have required yet another redesign of the vessel that Starfleet wasn't keen on doing, especially if they already had a new and equally capable design with the Excelsior-class.

It may also just be a case that the Constitution-class was still around even by the time of the TNG movies, but just not in very large numbers.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Well, I just want to discuss this matter. I'm sure that there is some reason that make the Starfleet doing that. There must be some new technology that can't be fitted into the Constitution class.

I would assume it was transwarp drive, which the Excelsiors were designed with and the Constitutions probably don't use very efficiently.

Even failing that, there's the simple fact that Excelsior is around three times the size of the Constitution class (Enterprise-B with its love handles is even larger) so even if it can carry the exact same technologies, it can simply carry more OF it.

Basically they replaced the Constitution with the Excelsior for the same reason your mom replaced her old sub compact with a minivan.

 

[Shark]

I never once saw the Excelsior-class as being a replacement for the Constitution-class, just the newest design of the day with all the latest bells and whistles.

I like to think that Starfleet shipbuilding policy leans more towards cranking out new designs rather than updating older ones, although there are notable exceptions.

Well, this is the problem that I want to discuss with everyone here. We know that Constitution class is highly upgrade-able. We can see that from the bridge of the days. I mean they always change the bridge model in every ST movies that we watched.

So if the Excelsior can equipped with Phaser type 8, what make Constitution can't equipped with Phaser type 8?

It just like Lakota. We know that Lakota can carry Quantum Torpedo, so why build the new Sovereign Class?

Well, look at the design as being cohesive; take it as a whole rather than by it's individual parts. The newer ships likely are advanced in many more areas, not just in what equipment they carry. For instance, we could postulate that there is some reason for the Sovereign class to be so sleek (Beyond real-world aesthetics ), and that it's sleek design gives it some edge over that of the Excelsior class. Indeed, there could be some limitation in the actual physical design of the Constitution class. Perhaps the older Constitution class vessels are easier to spot on sensors than their sleeker successors.

For instance, why not simply upgrade the internals of the original configuration Constitutions? Leaving the exterior as it was in Star Trek TOS?

Progress. That's why the modern US Navy sails around in tube-shaped submarines instead of boat-shaped subs. The tubes are more hydro-dynamic and therefore more efficient.

 

[Galileo7]

Well in ST4 we are introduced to the Enterprise A.
I was a little surprised that the new Enterprise was basically the same as the last one.
The one with 20 year old technology. My feeling from watching ST2 was that the Enterprise was being retired not only because it was 20 years old, but that it was out of date technologically speaking as well.

I was expecting Kirk to receive an excelsior-class ship at the end of ST4.
And of course the Enterprse B is an excelsior-class ship.

Agree.

I never once saw the Excelsior-class as being a replacement for the Constitution-class, just the newest design of the day with all the latest bells and whistles.

I like to think that Starfleet shipbuilding policy leans more towards cranking out new designs rather than updating older ones, although there are notable exceptions.

Agree.

I wonder how the viewers of TNG would have been liked it if Picard's 1701-D had been a newly built updated interior technology Constitution Class-refit?

 

[Nebusj]

I wonder how the viewers of TNG would have been liked it if Picard's 1701-D had been a newly built updated interior technology Constitution Class-refit?

We'd have loved it. The Constitution Class was always a winner, and the Refit Constitution managed to be the rare remake that was at least as good as the original. If a Refit Refit Connie were able to capture that magic yet again the fans would have been delighted.

I mean, the show needed like fourteen episodes to find an angle the Galaxy-class Enterprise didn't look weird from. If they could've gone in from day one with something that looked Motion Picture Flyaround-Tour beautiful then that would have been at least one ongoing production problem avoided.

 

[Galileo7]

I wonder how the viewers of TNG would have been liked it if Picard's 1701-D had been a newly built updated interior technology Constitution Class-refit?

We'd have loved it. The Constitution Class was always a winner, and the Refit Constitution managed to be the rare remake that was at least as good as the original. If a Refit Refit Connie were able to capture that magic yet again the fans would have been delighted.

I mean, the show needed like fourteen episodes to find an angle the Galaxy-class Enterprise didn't look weird from. If they could've gone in from day one with something that looked Motion Picture Flyaround-Tour beautiful then that would have been at least one ongoing production problem avoided.

Absolutely agree with all your thoughts here. The Constitution Class 1701 was great. On Friday December 7th 1979, as a boy when I saw TMP with the majestic 1701-Refit Constitution Class I was truly in awe. You are also correct about the Galaxy Class 1701-D on TNG.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Though, a style of ship doesn't necessarily designate it's use (within a size class). A Constitution could be a heavy cruiser, bristling with weapons, it could be an exploration cruiser, it could be a hospital ship.

If you built a brand new Connie from the "ground" up with whatever tech was new at the time, wouldn't it be as good as an Excelsior?

Maybe the long (and ample) nacelles were more prone to stress? Maybe some other basic design flaw?

 

[WarpFactorZ]

So why don't build a new Constitution and put new tech inside them? Why Excelsior?

Changing / new mission of Starfleet. Deeper space exploration. The first time we see Excelsior in action is returning from exploring Beta quadrant -- which implies it was a LONG way from home for a while. Increased size and staff are obviously necessary.