Clues

[Tosk]

How is that a contradiction? It's just two people having different points of view. Janeway chooses to end one life to bring back two, Sisko says that he won't force Kira to give hers up.

After she volunteers, Sisko and O'Brien (the two who were most against it) do change their minds and decide to intentionally maroon themselves for the sake of their descendants.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

How is that a contradiction? It's just two people having different points of view. Janeway chooses to end one life to bring back two, Sisko says that he won't force Kira to give hers up.

After she volunteers, Sisko and O'Brien (the two who were most against it) do change their minds and decide to intentionally maroon themselves for the sake of their descendants.

That's a lie. Sisko didn't change his mind when Kira volunteered. You should watch that episode again because it's quite obvious. He changed his mind later (almost a day!) which I find a bit disgusting since it trivializes Kira's say in the matter.

Basically he was saying: "I know you volunteered to do this but I don't care, unless I change my mind later and I'll use that as a pretext to do what I want to do as a good autocrat should do."

 

[Silvercrest]

What should have helped is if at the big reveal of "it has all happened once already" we in fact learned it has happened twice. The first time, Picard promised to put right what first went wrong, and the aliens are happy with that. But now it's the second time, and Picard has much harder time convincing the aliens

I've always had my own satirical ending to the episode which is quite similar.

• Picard explains that the last attempt was just a dry run and this time they know how to get it right.
• The Paxans reply, "That is what you told us the last four times."
• The Enterprise explodes.
• End of show.

 

[Tosk]

That's a lie. Sisko didn't change his mind when Kira volunteered.

I didn't say he changed his mind because of it, I said that he did it after that.

He refused to force her, but her volunteering freed him up to make the later decision.

 

[Mojochi]

Ultimately, whether you choose to see the Paxans' knee jerk reaction of potentially eliminating this one group, that they were unable to prevent knowing about them, as inherently bad or not is irrelevant. As isolationists, Starfleet members are duty bound by the Prime Directive to protect that state, if they can. Exposing their existence when they have the ability to prevent that is interfering in the natural course of their evolution.

Pretty much everyone on the crew found it to be acceptable to have their memories of this event erased for the protection of this race, & the preservation of peace. I have to believe at least part of that is because they are duty bound to preserve a xenophobic alien culture's isolation if & when when they can. They'd already had their memories wiped twice at this point anyhow. Clearly they saw no harm in doing so again. Hell, there's been times when wiping memories has been on the table aboard the Enterprise as well

 

[Makarov]

Is it true that the prime directive tells them to stay out of the business of highly advanced civilizations? I thought the point of it was to avoid influencing developing early civilizations, not to protect isolationists. In fact once they find a developed society their directive seems to be to make first gradual infiltration and surveillance like in the episode First Contact, regardless if that race would approve of the surveillance or not.

What kind of peace is forced memory wipes anyway? It's totally one sided towards their needs and no one elses.

 

[Mojochi]

Is it true that the prime directive tells them to stay out of the business of highly advanced civilizations? I thought the point of it was to avoid influencing developing early civilizations, not to protect isolationists. In fact once they find a developed society their directive seems to be to make first gradual infiltration and surveillance like in the episode First Contact, regardless if that race would approve of the surveillance or not.

What kind of peace is forced memory wipes anyway? It's totally one sided towards their needs and no one elses.

One where nobody dies, which is why I'm assuming Picard suggests it to begin with & everybody seems agreeable. You or I may not see having our memory wiped as a palatable solution, but clearly they seem ok with it in this circumstance. I assume for the reasons I've mentioned

The point of the PD is to avoid getting mixed up in the internal matters of exterior cultures, including the Klingons at one time, with whom they have established relations

1st contact protocol is a separate issue, & not a very smart one on their part, given that their practice doesn't really account for mishaps like in that very episode. They do it to attempt to ease the introduction to the greater community. I imagine that once you find out someone wants to be left alone or kept secret, they're obliged to see to that

Granted, memory wiping is a pretty extreme measure to go to, but like I said, they all seem ok with it & Picard is the one who puts forth the suggestion. The alternative being death or a disadvantaged war

 

[Timo]

Is it true that the prime directive tells them to stay out of the business of highly advanced civilizations? I thought the point of it was to avoid influencing developing early civilizations, not to protect isolationists.

In episodes like DS9 "The Circle", the Prime Directive is quoted as banning all interference in foreign internal affairs, regardless of their level of development. It stops Starfleet from interfering with the supposed internal revolution on Bajor, but apparently ceases to be an obstacle once it's proven that Cardassians are behind that revolution or at least supporting it.

Staying out of the Klingon civil war was also a Prime Directive matter, although the rule wasn't called by that specific name in the episodes.

Yet it doesn't need to be a hate triangle like the Circle affair in order to qualify as non-internal. The folks in "A Taste of Armageddon" were fighting an internal war, but the UFP decided it was their right and duty to interfere anyway because apparently the war indirectly caused harm to outside parties, i.e. the Federation, too. The Paxans could easily be considered an analogous case.

On the other hand, the degree of outside risk is no doubt crucial there. In "The High Ground", terrorist tactics in fighting the local conflict resulted in some UFP casualties, but that wasn't enough to waive the PD yet. Basically, if just a single nosy starship comes to harm, that's their own damn fault and no excuse for interfering further. Although Kirk rarely saw it that way.

Granted, memory wiping is a pretty extreme measure to go to, but like I said, they all seem ok with it & Picard is the one who puts forth the suggestion.

It's definitely one nonlethal weapon that the Feds themselves are at ease with using. Doctor Pulaski was an expert in the field, and solved a couple of crises by applying the treatment. Dr. Crusher never got it right, however - yet that didn't stop Picard from asking her to perform the procedure time and again. Supposedly, it's a standard response to certain types of crisis in the Starfleet rulebook, and involves no issues of consent. (Which is why Dr. Bashir is fine with it in DS9, too. And good at it. I wonder if Crusher was a klutz or just unlucky with the special cases coming her way?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Granted, memory wiping is a pretty extreme measure to go to, but like I said, they all seem ok with it & Picard is the one who puts forth the suggestion.

It's definitely one nonlethal weapon that the Feds themselves are at ease with using. Doctor Pulaski was an expert in the field, and solved a couple of crises by applying the treatment. Dr. Crusher never got it right, however - yet that didn't stop Picard from asking her to perform the procedure time and again. Supposedly, it's a standard response to certain types of crisis in the Starfleet rulebook, and involves no issues of consent.

Exactly my point. As to why Bev never made it work. It's always addressed as a species specific procedure. Some races don't take to it as well as others, apparently

So yeah... Why would anyone on a ship that practices memory wiping have a problem with using that to resolve an issue peaceably in this situation?

 

[kirkfan]

Is it true that the prime directive tells them to stay out of the business of highly advanced civilizations? I thought the point of it was to avoid influencing developing early civilizations, not to protect isolationists. In fact once they find a developed society their directive seems to be to make first gradual infiltration and surveillance like in the episode First Contact, regardless if that race would approve of the surveillance or not.

What kind of peace is forced memory wipes anyway? It's totally one sided towards their needs and no one elses.

One where nobody dies, which is why I'm assuming Picard suggests it to begin with & everybody seems agreeable. You or I may not see having our memory wiped as a palatable solution, but clearly they seem ok with it in this circumstance. I assume for the reasons I've mentioned

The point of the PD is to avoid getting mixed up in the internal matters of exterior cultures, including the Klingons at one time, with whom they have established relations

1st contact protocol is a separate issue, & not a very smart one on their part, given that their practice doesn't really account for mishaps like in that very episode. They do it to attempt to ease the introduction to the greater community. I imagine that once you find out someone wants to be left alone or kept secret, they're obliged to see to that

Granted, memory wiping is a pretty extreme measure to go to, but like I said, they all seem ok with it & Picard is the one who puts forth the suggestion. The alternative being death or a disadvantaged war

It seems to me that Picard proposed that solution, however disagreeable, as an alternative to death, just as he was ready to do anything Q asked (which fortunately he never had to honor) in exchange for the safe return of his team in Encounter At Farpoint. It doesn't allow us to judge whether people were OK with it, no more than people being mugged at gunpoint are OK with giving up their valuables, they do it nevertheless, just as the crew of the Enterprise did.

 

[Makarov]

It doesn't allow us to judge whether people were OK with it, no more than people being mugged at gunpoint are OK with giving up their valuables, they do it nevertheless, just as the crew of the Enterprise did.

Exactly. While the federation probably couldn't have won a war against these aliens, I'm kind of reminded of The Wounded where Picard takes a time out to threaten the cardassian when his main objective was not to provoke a war. I think some similar harsh words from Picard would have been appropriate in this episode.

Sure the Federation does some memory wiping, but when it fails they don't just wipe out everyone who saw them in Who Watches the Watchers. Fair points about the prime directive though, I'll have to rewatch some of those episodes.

 

[kirkfan]

It doesn't allow us to judge whether people were OK with it, no more than people being mugged at gunpoint are OK with giving up their valuables, they do it nevertheless, just as the crew of the Enterprise did.

Exactly. While the federation probably couldn't have won a war against these aliens, I'm kind of reminded of The Wounded where Picard takes a time out to threaten the cardassian when his main objective was not to provoke a war. I think some similar harsh words from Picard would have been appropriate in this episode.

Sure the Federation does some memory wiping, but when it fails they don't just wipe out everyone who saw them in Who Watches the Watchers. Fair points about the prime directive though, I'll have to rewatch some of those episodes.

The Prime directive is a complex issue. All the more since we learn that every captain has violated it, repeatedly. It's troubling since it's called the "Prime directive", I mean the consequences of violating it should be more than a slap on the wrist... one would think.

 

[Mojochi]

I'm kind of reminded of The Wounded where Picard takes a time out to threaten the cardassian when his main objective was not to provoke a war. I think some similar harsh words from Picard would have been appropriate in this episode.

I think that's a great suggestion. I can totally see that playing. I think Picard tends to play things close to the chest though when there's an active threat. That final jibe at Macet in The Wounded was done with some breathing room under his belt. I think in this case he was considering that they'd gotten these strangers to abide to nonviolence twice.

Despite there being legitimate reason to object to how these beings were going to treat them, it's maybe best to just count your blessings and move along, and not stir up additional trouble by handing them down some verbal hostility. The whole nonviolence hinged on them finding Humans intriguing "worthy of a 2nd chance". A verbal bashing might have diminished that impression, essentially pressing their luck in the matter

Excellent point though

 

[kirkfan]

I'm kind of reminded of The Wounded where Picard takes a time out to threaten the cardassian when his main objective was not to provoke a war. I think some similar harsh words from Picard would have been appropriate in this episode.

I think that's a great suggestion. I can totally see that playing. I think Picard tends to play things close to the chest though when there's an active threat. That final jibe at Macet in The Wounded was done with some breathing room under his belt. I think in this case he was considering that they'd gotten these strangers to abide to nonviolence twice.

Despite there being legitimate reason to object to how these beings were going to treat them, it's maybe best to just count your blessings and move along, and not stir up additional trouble by handing them down some verbal hostility. The whole nonviolence hinged on them finding Humans intriguing "worthy of a 2nd chance". A verbal bashing might have diminished that impression, essentially pressing their luck in the matter

Excellent point though

I wonder what they based that conclusion on, that the humans were worthy of a second chance that is.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Harsh words from Picard would not do much good if he couldn't back them up.

 

[kirkfan]

Data is a sentient being and not a machine as has been repeated throughout the series. Isn't it plausible that once they were out of danger of being recaptured, he could have found a way to alert strarfleet of the permanent risk there by circumventing his instructions?

 

[Timo]

"Circumventing instructions" is bread and butter for Data. He isn't bound by simplistic things like "Asimovian laws" or "Pledge not to tell lies" or "Direct orders". He does what he wants. We have seen him kill, lie, steal, threaten. So it comes quite out of the blue that he would stay mum about something like this simply because Picard tells him so. Dr. Soong didn't build him to be a Starfleet slave, so why build a feature that makes him so blindly obey somebody (that is, somebody who isn't Dr. Soong!)?

However, Data is also very good at deception in the short term, even if his lies get a bit awkward in the lnog term. I could easily see the Paxans buying the fiction that he cannot reveal the secret.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tosk]

Being a life-form that can do what he wants, Data can also make up his own mind as to whether it is better to keep quiet about the Paxans or not. Evidently, he agreed with Picard's order and kept his mouth shut.

 

[kirkfan]

Being a life-form that can do what he wants, Data can also make up his own mind as to whether it is better to keep quiet about the Paxans or not. Evidently, he agreed with Picard's order and kept his mouth shut.

Or he could use common sense, which I agree he sometimes has a hard time to do, and realize that Picard's orders were given under duress and that they were only a way to get them out of danger. Under Judicial law "duress" is a valid reason to vitiate a contract.