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Clues

Flying Spaghetti Monster

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I never liked this episode. It was well-made and well-performed, and I liked the idea of this episode.

But the reason I didn't like it was that, at the end, they said they'd eliminate the clues.

Yet... how? The clues that started this were not ones they could just eliminate... we are talking about beard's growing, or soil samples.

Seriously.. what's the point?
 
I never liked this episode. It was well-made and well-performed, and I liked the idea of this episode.

But the reason I didn't like it was that, at the end, they said they'd eliminate the clues.

Yet... how? The clues that started this were not ones they could just eliminate... we are talking about beard's growing, or soil samples.

Seriously.. what's the point?

I remember that episode well and I agree with you. The reason they didn't show us how they eliminated the clues is because the writers didn't have a clue about how to do it.

For instance, what would you do with Worf's arm? or the plants, get new ones?

It's an artifice a writer uses when he painted himself in a corner. They tell you that everything is Aok and you are supposed to take their word for it.
 
OMG! I'm so glad it wasn't just me.

They had a good story here, but they could have had another writer's break session to have the mysteries/ clues be ones that are completely controllable. Then I would have been impressed.

As it is, this is a well-made episode that I just can't get through.
 
OMG! I'm so glad it wasn't just me.

They had a good story here, but they could have had another writer's break session to have the mysteries/ clues be ones that are completely controllable. Then I would have been impressed.

As it is, this is a well-made episode that I just can't get through.

They did a similarly frustrating thing on Voyager with Tuvix, they completely bypassed telling us how either Tuvok or Neelix lived the experience, if they remembered anything at all. They seemed emotionless after being re-materialized, so one could assume that they were completely aware of what was going on. I would have appreciated if they had taken a couple of minutes to tell us though.
 
Exactly..

I've seen worse episodes than this one .. worse at least at a conceptual/ idea level that I actually like better.. because of this inherent logical flaw.

If they had thought of clues/ solutions that were actually "controllable" I could (sans the Troi voice thing) recommend this episode to non Trek fans.
 
It's not hard to imagine ways for them to eliminate most of the clues and it's not important enough to the story to spend time explaining how they did it.
 
Exactly..

I've seen worse episodes than this one .. worse at least at a conceptual/ idea level that I actually like better.. because of this inherent logical flaw.

If they had thought of clues/ solutions that were actually "controllable" I could (sans the Troi voice thing) recommend this episode to non Trek fans.
Troi's altered voice was lame, indeed.
 
It's not hard to imagine ways for them to eliminate most of the clues and it's not important enough to the story to spend time explaining how they did it.

see... no. I, with respect, disagree with both of your points.

How would they eliminate the clues of natural beard, and plant growth and broken wrists, if they couldn't do it the first time. These are things they can't just eliminate. As for "not important enough" that's is false as well. Otherwise the episode would have ended in the first act after they woke up and Picard had a few questions that he had to leave unanswered on Data's recommendation.

The point of the episode is that human's can't resist a good mystery if there are still clues around.. so these little clues are very important.
 
It's not hard to imagine ways for them to eliminate most of the clues and it's not important enough to the story to spend time explaining how they did it.

see... no. I, with respect, disagree with both of your points.

How would they eliminate the clues of natural beard, and plant growth and broken wrists, if they couldn't do it the first time. These are things they can't just eliminate. As for "not important enough" that's is false as well. Otherwise the episode would have ended in the first act after they woke up and Picard had a few questions that he had to leave unanswered on Data's recommendation.

The point of the episode is that human's can't resist a good mystery if there are still clues around.. so these little clues are very important.

It's like someone in a story saying that he's found a way to square the circle without ever explaining us. In the story the man would be credited to be the genius that has resolved the millenia old puzzle. BUT, real mathematicians would know that it's pure bullshit since squaring the circle has been proven to be impossible.
 
The concept is that if no one ever suspects a mystery, then the discrepancies never become clues. The intention at the end of the episode is to create a façade that will appease them enough to avoid investigating. Clearly, if they investigate, then they will ultimately find evidence to again reveal the truth. Altering their biological clocks, for example, is probably not something even they can do, & maybe a transporter trace analysis focused specifically on that might reveal that fact again, but if no one ever thinks they need to run one, then they won't be looking for it

The episode doesn't hinge on eliminating all the contrary evidence. It hinges on eliminating the mystery that they become compelled to solve.

At the start, Data talks about realigning their clock with the nearest starbase. That takes care of any time discrepancy, unless they go rooting through the computer's recesses, to look specifically for the chronometer tampering, which Geordi later finds

The whole mystery unfolds with Beverly's stupid plants. If not for that, they may never have even bothered to look deeper. I assume it was a minor fix, that. Data's fake sensor image was enough to get them through the initial curiosity, & it only falls apart upon closer attention, & there won't be any paid if they don't suspect it. Plus, they might have chosen a less obvious image the 2nd time

Worf's arm only becomes a clue because he's specifically ordered to report oddities. Without that, he's unlikely to come forward, by his own admission, & if it ever did come out in the future that he'd broken his arm & had it refused, he'd likely assume it happened at some other time. Plus, Beverly probably gave him some pain suppressants so he wouldn't notice it.

Data's odd behavior only becomes odd when put under scrutiny & he's forced to tell unsupportable lies. Nobody's beards grew. They removed them just like normal. The soil samples weren't the issue. The plant growth was, & just like the beards, they could be corrected easily enough, most likely by replacing all the plants with appropriate ones

The only X factor in this episode is Troi. Her emotional & psychological reactions to having been possessed are unknowable by us, but since her whole alien empathic thing is a bunch of sci-fi gobbledygook anyhow, then it's not much of a leap to suggest they figured their way around it. After all, it only really surfaced when Picard made them all reflect on the event. Apart from a little initial disorientation, she seemed fairly functional until then. You've got to suspend some disbelief on that one. It's fricking Star Trek. Maybe the aliens did some extra special memory wiping on her so she'd be ok the 2nd time

I like the episode. It's one of my S4 favorites
 
The concept is that if no one ever suspects a mystery, then the discrepancies never become clues. The intention at the end of the episode is to create a façade that will appease them enough to avoid investigating. Clearly, if they investigate, then they will ultimately find evidence to again reveal the truth. Altering their biological clocks, for example, is probably not something even they can do, & maybe a transporter trace analysis focused specifically on that might reveal that fact again, but if no one ever thinks they need to run one, then they won't be looking for it

The episode doesn't hinge on eliminating all the contrary evidence. It hinges on eliminating the mystery that they become compelled to solve.

At the start, Data talks about realigning their clock with the nearest starbase. That takes care of any time discrepancy, unless they go rooting through the computer's recesses, to look specifically for the chronometer tampering, which Geordi later finds

The whole mystery unfolds with Beverly's stupid plants. If not for that, they may never have even bothered to look deeper. I assume it was a minor fix, that. Data's fake sensor image was enough to get them through the initial curiosity, & it only falls apart upon closer attention, & there won't be any paid if they don't suspect it. Plus, they might have chosen a less obvious image the 2nd time

Worf's arm only becomes a clue because he's specifically ordered to report oddities. Without that, he's unlikely to come forward, by his own admission, & if it ever did come out in the future that he'd broken his arm & had it refused, he'd likely assume it happened at some other time. Plus, Beverly probably gave him some pain suppressants so he wouldn't notice it.

Data's odd behavior only becomes odd when put under scrutiny & he's forced to tell unsupportable lies. Nobody's beards grew. They removed them just like normal. The soil samples weren't the issue. The plant growth was, & just like the beards, they could be corrected easily enough, most likely by replacing all the plants with appropriate ones

The only X factor in this episode is Troi. Her emotional & psychological reactions to having been possessed are unknowable by us, but since her whole alien empathic thing is a bunch of sci-fi gobbledygook anyhow, then it's not much of a leap to suggest they figured their way around it. After all, it only really surfaced when Picard made them all reflect on the event. Apart from a little initial disorientation, she seemed fairly functional until then. You've got to suspend some disbelief on that one. It's fricking Star Trek. Maybe the aliens did some extra special memory wiping on her so she'd be ok the 2nd time

I like the episode. It's one of my S4 favorites

I think it's an impossible task. You can't control the random thoughts and deeds of one thousand people. Anyone can notice something odd and go see a higher up and then the whole shebang starts over again. Plus we can see how helpless Data is when caught in a lie. Sooner or later Picard will ask him a question that he will belabor the answer of and then the suspicions begin...
 
You're not controlling thoughts & deeds. You're controlling your environment, a closed environment in their case. Everybody aboard is responsible for eliminating everything that might raise suspicions about the cover story of day(s) never happening. Perception is not absolute. We can all be fooled. The 1st person you fool is you. If YOU noticed some thing(s) that didn't add up, then it's now your job to make that not happen or coordinate with others to achieve that

That they had a "Run through" should shake out those bugs. Now they better know what things will surface to shine a light of doubt, even if they're things we never reference in the episode. Taken in the context of Star Trek's realism, it's not terribly off the mark, imho
 
You're not controlling thoughts & deeds. You're controlling your environment, a closed environment in their case. Everybody aboard is responsible for eliminating everything that might raise suspicions about the cover story of day(s) never happening. Perception is not absolute. We can all be fooled. The 1st person you fool is you. If YOU noticed some thing(s) that didn't add up, then it's now your job to make that not happen or coordinate with others to achieve that

That they had a "Run through" should shake out those bugs. Now they better know what things will surface to shine a light of doubt, even if they're things we never reference in the episode. Taken in the context of Star Trek's realism, it's not terribly off the mark, imho

There's a hole of 48 hours in the lives of a thousand people. How do you make something like that go away? Let's say the story started Monday, now it's Friday and Data tells them that they only lived 30 seconds? What if the talk to someone from another ship? Or what if Star fleet asks Picard what the Hell he was doing during these two days?

But, but... it was only 30 seconds!
 
What bothers me about this episode is that there's an extremely dangerous alien race that is going to continue blowing up ships that pass through the area, and Picard just lets them off the hook. In fact he seems happy about it.
 
^ The only reason this episode was a problem for the Enterprise was because of Data. Things got out of hand because the crew questioned Data's handling of the events. If Data hadn't been there, any clues that may have been left behind would have probably been dismissed as irrelevant - the crew would just write it off as the wormhole knocking them out cold for a short time, and then go on their way, happy that they were still in one piece.
 
What if the talk to someone from another ship? Or what if Star fleet asks Picard what the Hell he was doing during these two days?

But, but... it was only 30 seconds!
They've been in a "wormhole" or so they think. Riker actually says they're lucky they weren't thrown into the middle of next week

As for a day or two discrepancy to people's lives? Hell, I've woken up on Thursday & thought it was Friday plenty of times, & there was zero reason or attempt to mislead me at all going on at all, unlike here, where they have a concerted effort to achieve the thing. Perception is not absolute. It would not be impossible to fool yourself, especially if you know yourself & had a rehearsal to shake out some things you might not have accounted for

Slight of hand, folks. Creating an illusion is not an altogether unheard of phenomena for people. It goes on all the time
 
Yeah but the episode proves they are totally cool with killing thousands of people just to keep their secret. Chances are other ships at some point down the road will have problems with their memory wipe protocol as well and they will be killed by this race.
 
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