Cardassian War Federation Fatalities.

[Tenacity]

In Journey's End, Picard said "Evek, the last war caused massive destruction and cost millions of lives." Now unless the millions of lives were exclusively Cardassians during the course of the war, the Federation would have lost their share of people, and some of those would be from Starfleet who were the ones fighting the Cardassians.

How portion of these "millions of lifes" would have been people from the Federation?

And how many were Starfleet personnel?

I personally reject the notion that some fans have that Starfleet could just walked all over the Cardassians in combat. The war (hot and cold) went on for multiple years and Starfleet was seemingly incapable of simply winning it swiftly. And the war ended in a treaty that neither side was completely happy about.

So I don't think the death and destruction would have all been on one side (the Cardassians).

Starfleet would have lost hundreds of starships, while the newer starships would be superior to the average Cardassian ships, many (the majority) of Starfleet's starships were Excelsiors and other older starships, and would have been more evenly matched.

In some cases Starfleet's starships would be inferior to their Cardassian opponents.

Federation member worlds would be attacked, colonies too, hundreds of thousands killed.

The Cardassians of course would also lose ships and have their planets attacked by Starfleet.

How would you see the "millions of lives" being divided?

 

[Paradise City]

All you need is one "biogenic" WMD deployment on one planet and you've yourself a multi-million casualty count. Perhaps even a billion.

Heck just bombard one city through a gap in some worn down shields using conventional phasers and you might get that multi-million casualty count.

So, I'd say it was mainly civilians who died from orbital assaults. Starfleet muscle might outmatch the Cardassians in a straight out head to head but Starfleet might struggle to assemble ships together given the large frontier they are obliged to guard. Perhaps what pushed the end of the war was Starfleet finally deploying the muscle needed to guard that area of space after several over-ambitious and destructive Cardassian blitzes but angled for a peace treaty because Starfleet can't sustain a large fleet deployment there infinitely.

 

[Ithekro]

Or the loss of 50 or so starships within the short span of three or four years leading up to the peace treaty. Those loses being from other sources (The Borg, Iconian tech, scuttling, alien combat probes, and the like) rather than the Cardassians. The heavy losses lead to less ships being able to defend the frontiers.

 

[Mojochi]

If we're to believe the accounts of Setlik III from Maxwell & O'Brien, the Cardies had little regard for differentiating between combatants & civilians on the worlds they assaulted. With that kind of indifference, it would be easily possible to amount a multimillion body count over the course of assaulting multiple UFP worlds throughout the war

Macet's surprise, in that episode, that the Federation can now break their ship's transponder codes suggests that at one time they couldn't. Such would be a much greater disadvantage. Actually, revealing that they now can is, in itself, a rather disadvantageous turn. Surely they'd go home after the Phoenix debacle & retool their security. Not a bright move, exposing that advantage imho. You'll note that no mention is made of having that continued ability in Chain of Command. So they probably corrected the issue.

Hell, the behavior of the admiral at the beginning of The Wounded ought to suggest how unpleasant their previous war had been, if the new directive for this incident is preserve peace at all costs.

 

[publiusr]

Maxwell is probably Section 31 now--after having been moved to their new "prison."

 

[Timo]

I don't think there's reason to insist that Starfleet starships would not have been immune to the best attempts of the enemy. I mean, we see this being the fact of the matter in "The Wounded", and none of the parties involved appears surprised. And many a real war has been fought with one side unable to hurt war machine X of the other, while being able to inflict significant casualties elsewhere.

On the other hand, Starfleet's role in the war can't have been all passive and defensive. At the conclusion of the fighting, the Cardassian Union still consists of at least a dozen star systems, name-dropped along the run of DS9 - yet there only exists one system between their homeworld and neutral space, that being the next door neighbor Bajor. Apparently, the Union is not a nicely centered bubble, but a shape with a big dent its the UFP side... An expected result of a conflict where the UFP bites back, but clearly at odds with a scenario where the CU expands in that direction and only meets defensive measures, not counteroffensive ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Given that the bulk of the Cardassian fleet appears to be small patrol ships and destroyers (Hidekis and Galors) that are outgunned by Federation explorers like the Galaxy and Nebula classes and (given the performance against the Phoenix in The Wounded) I don't think that Federation losses were high on the "ships" side of the equation.

I'd even suggest that New Orleans, Challenger and Cheyenne could overcome several patrol ships at once and even go toe to toe with Galors with a fair chance of success (New Orleans are designated as frigates (and probably Challengers and maybe Mirandas are similar), Cheyennes (and I would assume 24th Century Excelsiors) are apparently light cruisers. The latter would stack-up fairly well against Galor-class destroyers and I wouldn't bet against the former).

 

[Timo]

We have in one way or another witnessed three Starfleet ship categories engage the Cardassians before the Dominion upgunning: the Galaxy/Nebula giants, the Defiant beefy midget, and the Constellation aging middleweight. The first and second categories were invariably triumphant, while the last was on one occasion stated to have "fled" (as per Picard's backstory to "The Wounded").

There's room to argue that back in the days of the UFP/CU war, the rough Constellation category might have been a more common frontline fighting unit yardstick than it was during TNG, and that at least some noticeable percentage of Starfleet ships was indeed vulnerable to the Cardassians. Still, we lack any and all mention of ships actually lost to the Cardassians in that war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

while the last was on one occasion stated to have "fled" (as per Picard's backstory to "The Wounded").

Actually, per the dialogue:

DATA: Captain, we are nearing the periphery of Sector twenty one five oh three.
PICARD: Be on the lookout for a Cardassian patrol ship, Mister Worf. They should be hailing us soon.
RIKER: Even with a treaty, they're still skittish about protecting their border.
PICARD: Last time I was in this sector, I was on the Stargazer, running at warp speed ahead of a Cardassian warship.
TROI: Running, Captain? You? That's hard to believe.
PICARD: Believe it. I'd been sent to make preliminary overtures to a truce. I'd lowered my shields as a gesture of good will. But the Cardassians were not impressed. They had taken out most of my weapons and damaged the impulse engines before I could regroup and run.
WORF: The Cardassians have no honour. I do not trust them.
TROI: They're our allies now, Mister Worf. We have to trust them.
WORF: Trust is earned, not given away.
PICARD: I hope their scout ship makes contact soon. It's not a good idea to stay too long on a Cardassian border without making your intentions known.

So, we know that a Cardassian warship (probably a older version of the Galor based on known info) was capable of scoring moderate damage to an old late 23rd/early 24th Century cruiser (probably similar in capabilities to the more common Miranda), but were can't tell whether the warship could have taken Stargazer one-on-one in an even fight, much less the larger and more powerful Excelsior and Ambassador class vessels that were the "top-of-the-line" through most of the Constellation's working life.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Probably the lion's share of casualties are Federation because the Fed would only attack military targets.

 

[Tenacity]

because the Fed would only attack military targets

Not really. There would be important infrastructure, shipyards (typically civilian), civilian shipping, government and communications targets.

Maxwell only took on a single warship, most of his targets were freighters.

 

[Paradise City]

Maxwell thought (or was) attacking military supply vessels.

 

[Mojochi]

Not really. There would be important infrastructure, shipyards (typically civilian), civilian shipping, government and communications targets.

Maxwell only took on a single warship, most of his targets were freighters.

You also have to consider the enemy. If your enemy has low regard for inflicting civilian casualties, they might also have low regard for how they place military infrastructure, as it relates to the civilian population of their own, leaving Starfleet with no option but to inflict civilian casualties. Some MFs will use a civilian/bystander as a human shield on purpose, to exploit your compassion as a weakness

 

[Timo]

It would be a pretty major effort to separate one's military assets from one's civilian ones in terms of the weapons of mass destruction Starfleet typically uses for dealing with the former. Faulting the enemy for failing to create sufficient separation would be quite akin to blaming the rape victim for her failure to don medieval armor with locking bolts...

Yes, Starfleet might do pinpoint work with phasers and low-yield torpedoes. But even with those, how likely would it be for military casualties to outnumber civilian ones if Starfleet of the 24th century decided to attack, say, the United States of the 21st? Some airbases may be out in the sticks, but naval bases are essentially civilian targets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Not really. There would be important infrastructure, shipyards (typically civilian), civilian shipping, government and communications targets.

Maxwell only took on a single warship, most of his targets were freighters.

Those targets would have military value though. Supply lines and such. They wouldn't kill civilians for the sake of killing civilians. And Maxwell was rogue and believed his targets had military value.

Clearly civilians would be killed, but fewer, because once the base is disabled, they see a bunch of little escape pods flying away, they let them go. And Cardassians would raze entire cities to make a statement.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Maxwell thought (or was) attacking military supply vessels.

And that was total bull crap!!
Picard should have made them reveal their cargo!!
I was soooo pissed that he didn't!!!

 

[Prax]

Evek could have been referring specifically to Cardassian lives.

 

[Tenacity]

Evek could have been referring specifically to Cardassian lives.

The statement came from Picard.

 

[Prax]

Oops. Picard could have tauntingly been referring specifically to Cardassian lives.

 

[Herbert]

I got the impression that Cardassian ships were generally inferior to Federation ships. To what extent I don't know.