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Can the Dax symbiont have sex?

Ezri II

Captain
Sometime in the past the Dax symbiont was born and the mother and father were symbionts also.

So what is the gender of the Dax symbiont, is it male or female. If we did understand the gender of the symbiont, what if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a symbiont. How would the host, say Ezri Dax deal with it if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a joined host that is also a female host.

Answers to this ethical problem.
 
Which came first; the Trills and symbionts or the Gouauld(or whatever spelling) and their beasties?
 
The former. The Goa'uld idea was only hatched when the pilot for the TV show was written in 1997, but the Trill nature was already established in a TNG episode in May 1991 (regardless of the slight differences between that ep and the eventual DS9 portrayal).

The breeding issue is somewhat speculative. It might well be that a joined Trill slug can no longer breed - a fair exchange for suddenly having two good feet and two nimble hands and two sharp eyes and two firm boobs, I'd argue. The slugs could do all the necessary breeding while swimming in their pools, long before the possible joining.

Hosts with Trill slugs within can evidently have kids, although one might think Jadzia or Ezri Dax would have had problems when their not-so-considerable body cavities were filled with both the slug and a baby. Probably the kids are simple humanoids related to their parents, with not a whiff of "sluggishness" to them... This would be quite different from the way the humanoid kid of two Goa'uld humanoid hosts gains "special powers".

In theory, Trill slugs can crawl out of the body cavity either after an incision is made, or perhaps by biting their way through. Further in theory, they might utilize this for breeding new slugs, although probably the gestation of the little ones would take place in an unjoined slug rather than in one residing inside a host body. Alternately, a Trill male-equivalent might secrete sperm-equivalent from the host body without a direct incision, perhaps by injecting matter into the intestinal tract, or perhaps even by injecting it into the tract used by the semen of the (male) host, with a fellow female-equivalent slug sucking up what it needs from the tract used by the receiving (not necessarily female) host. But it gets sort of messy and a bit uncertain that way.

Timo Saloniemi
 
^I don't think so, I believe it was implied that one of the former Dax hosts (a female one that apparently had a lot of kids) were joined while having those kids. Perhaps the symbotite travels over the uterus during the pregnancy. I'd imagine there are complications but the Trill Doctors and those (non-trill doctors) familiar with Joined Trill would know what to do to treat them during the pregnancy.
 
Interesting!!

Anyway, say Ezri Dax has a female slug and for some reason needs to breed. And say, there is a female host with a male slug willing to mate with the female slug. Should be interesting how Ezri and the other female host have to deal with the mating of the slugs.
 
The Trill slugs could also be hermaphrodites (like Earth's slugs), or they could reproduce asexually, negating the need for a male/female divide.

The breeding issue is somewhat speculative. It might well be that a joined Trill slug can no longer breed - a fair exchange for suddenly having two good feet and two nimble hands and two sharp eyes and two firm boobs, I'd argue. The slugs could do all the necessary breeding while swimming in their pools, long before the possible joining.
I think that's the most probable hypothesis. Have ever been established if the symbionts can station in the pool between hosts? In that case, they could reproduce in that time span, too.

In theory, Trill slugs can crawl out of the body cavity either after an incision is made, or perhaps by biting their way through.
That is an image I don't want to have in my mind! :eek:
 
There's never been any indication that the symbionts are either male or female. They are always referred to as an "it," never a "he" or "she." Therefore, we must assume they are neuter, genderless.

The novel Unjoined says that the symbionts lay eggs, rather than give birth to live young. How they procreate is not specified. It's possible that two symbionts come together to mix their DNA to create baby symbionts, even though they have no gender as such, perhaps like the J'Naii. Or it's possible that they spontaneously impregnate themselves, or even that they "bud" like Vilix'Pran. We don't know.

As for hosts, we have to assume they procreate like most other humanoids. Of course the offspring don't have any symbiont characteristics, because the host and symbiont are only joined on an endocrine and functional level, not a genetic one. There is, as you say, the problem of sheer space inside the host to accommodate both a symbiont and a foetus, but perhaps Trills have remarkably capacious abdomens, or perhaps they gestate elsewhere on the body, like Ocampa.
 
what if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a symbiont. How would the host, say Ezri Dax deal with it if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a joined host that is also a female host.
Anyway, say Ezri Dax has a female slug and for some reason needs to breed. And say, there is a female host with a male slug willing to mate with the female slug. Should be interesting how Ezri and the other female host have to deal with the mating of the slugs.
Maybe the hosts will have to perform in this mating needs of the slugs.
Ok, then you just really want to see Erzi having sex with another female Trill. It's ok, tho: I want to see that, too. ;)
 
what if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a symbiont. How would the host, say Ezri Dax deal with it if the Dax symbiont wanted to have sex with a joined host that is also a female host.
Anyway, say Ezri Dax has a female slug and for some reason needs to breed. And say, there is a female host with a male slug willing to mate with the female slug. Should be interesting how Ezri and the other female host have to deal with the mating of the slugs.
Maybe the hosts will have to perform in this mating needs of the slugs.
Ok, then you just really want to see Erzi having sex with another female Trill. It's ok, tho: I want to see that, too. ;)

NO NO NO NO ... but it could happen.

The reason I feel they never talked about the symbiont as male or female and just called it *IT* as it was a safe way to deal with the problem of symbiont sex. The other, since the Dax symbiont has been in male Trills and female Trills as the host. It just makes it strange to have a male symbiont in a female Trill or a female symbiont in a male Trill host.
 
Once again, I'd like to argue that it's the slugs that are properly called Trill. The humanoids are of no particular species - any humanoid will do for a Trill host, but the slugs prefer spotted Kriosians for their phenomenally good looks, and even maintain the fiction that no other host will do and most of the Kriosians are incompatible as well. Apart from that, the humanoids possess no special characteristics that would make them particularly suited for being hosts, as even Riker can accommodate a Trill with ease.

Thus there is no actual discontinuity between TNG "The Host" and the DS9 portrayal of the species. The slug Odan in "The Host" simply preferred another species for its hosts, perhaps because of its chosen career of diplomacy, perhaps because it was more outgoing, adventurous, arrogant and dominating than the average slug. Hell, it didn't even bother to mention the name of the host in connection with its own name! :devil:

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ok, then you just really want to see Erzi having sex with another female Trill. It's ok, tho: I want to see that, too. ;)
NO NO NO NO ... but it could happen.
If you ask me, it should happen.

The reason I feel they never talked about the symbiont as male or female and just called it *IT* as it was a safe way to deal with the problem of symbiont sex. The other, since the Dax symbiont has been in male Trills and female Trills as the host. It just makes it strange to have a male symbiont in a female Trill or a female symbiont in a male Trill host.
Well, I don't see why. Even if the symbionts have a male/female divide (but the fact that they were always referred as "it" detracts from this hypothesis), surely it would have nothing in common with our perception of sexes. Surely I don't see any difference between having a female tapeworm inside a human male host, for example.
 
I'm assuming that whatever happens happens while the symbionts are in the pools, not while they're doing there work in the hosts.
 
Once again, I'd like to argue that it's the slugs that are properly called Trill. The humanoids are of no particular species - any humanoid will do for a Trill host, but the slugs prefer spotted Kriosians for their phenomenally good looks, and even maintain the fiction that no other host will do and most of the Kriosians are incompatible as well. Apart from that, the humanoids possess no special characteristics that would make them particularly suited for being hosts, as even Riker can accommodate a Trill with ease.

Thus there is no actual discontinuity between TNG "The Host" and the DS9 portrayal of the species. The slug Odan in "The Host" simply preferred another species for its hosts, perhaps because of its chosen career of diplomacy, perhaps because it was more outgoing, adventurous, arrogant and dominating than the average slug. Hell, it didn't even bother to mention the name of the host in connection with its own name! :devil:
As usual, very well reasoned. Never thought about that in this way.

I'm assuming that whatever happens happens while the symbionts are in the pools, not while they're doing there work in the hosts.
What happens in the pools, stays in the pools. :shifty:
 
Ok, then you just really want to see Erzi having sex with another female Trill. It's ok, tho: I want to see that, too. ;)
NO NO NO NO ... but it could happen.
If you ask me, it should happen.



If Ezri Dax had to have sex with a female host I have no problem. Still, were do we stop from there. A Trill could be a host and a family member of the host could also be a host. Do we really want to make the Trill society supporting what we would call incest?
 
Once again, I'd like to argue that it's the slugs that are properly called Trill. The humanoids are of no particular species - any humanoid will do for a Trill host, but the slugs prefer spotted Kriosians for their phenomenally good looks, and even maintain the fiction that no other host will do and most of the Kriosians are incompatible as well. Apart from that, the humanoids possess no special characteristics that would make them particularly suited for being hosts, as even Riker can accommodate a Trill with ease.

Thus there is no actual discontinuity between TNG "The Host" and the DS9 portrayal of the species. The slug Odan in "The Host" simply preferred another species for its hosts, perhaps because of its chosen career of diplomacy, perhaps because it was more outgoing, adventurous, arrogant and dominating than the average slug. Hell, it didn't even bother to mention the name of the host in connection with its own name! :devil:

Timo Saloniemi

are you sure about this? According to MA, Kriosians are from Krios Prime while Trill are from Trill. The MA page for Kriosians never mentions the word "Trill" while the MA page for Trill refers to them as the humanoid species that can serve as host to a symbiont.

While Trill and Kriosians look the same, I think they're different species. I mean, with as many species that look exactly like humans, it's not hard to imagine finding two different, but similarily spotted species.

In any case, the Trill humanoids seem to have the market cornered on symbionts. My guess is that both the symbionts and the humanoids evolved on the same planet and for millions of years of evolution, enjoyed a symbiotic relationship before ultimately separating and evolving into the current symbiotic relationship. That would explain similarities in cell structure that would allow for the apparent lack of rejection (immune response) toward the symbiont.

As for large body cavities in the Trill humanoids? It's possible. Evolution is pretty efficient and doesn't lend itself to wasted space, but at one point I assume there were enough symbionts for all the humanoids, until the Trill humanoid population exploded and they had to make up rules for getting a symbiont. Or perhaps the Trill organs can be rearranged and squished but still function when there is a baby in the womb.
 
are you sure about this? According to MA, Kriosians are from Krios Prime while Trill are from Trill. The MA page for Kriosians never mentions the word "Trill" while the MA page for Trill refers to them as the humanoid species that can serve as host to a symbiont.

While Trill and Kriosians look the same, I think they're different species. I mean, with as many species that look exactly like humans, it's not hard to imagine finding two different, but similarily spotted species.

In any case, the Trill humanoids seem to have the market cornered on symbionts. My guess is that both the symbionts and the humanoids evolved on the same planet and for millions of years of evolution, enjoyed a symbiotic relationship before ultimately separating and evolving into the current symbiotic relationship. That would explain similarities in cell structure that would allow for the apparent lack of rejection (immune response) toward the symbiont.

As for large body cavities in the Trill humanoids? It's possible. Evolution is pretty efficient and doesn't lend itself to wasted space, but at one point I assume there were enough symbionts for all the humanoids, until the Trill humanoid population exploded and they had to make up rules for getting a symbiont. Or perhaps the Trill organs can be rearranged and squished but still function when there is a baby in the womb.

Was there not a civil war on Trill that gave us the symbiont relationship?
 
are you sure about this?

Yes. Is it stated outright in an episode? No. Is this how Trek novels interpret it? No. But I'm still sure. ;) After all, no episode contradicts this model.

According to MA, Kriosians are from Krios Prime while Trill are from Trill.

And Riker is from Alaska, and he can still be host to a Trill. That is, if "Trill" is the slug. But any inhabitant of planet Trill can be called "Trill", be it a slug, a Kriosian host, a Terran host, a Klingon host, an unjoined Kriosian, an unjoined Terran, or an unjoined Klingon - as long as said individual (or joining) has Trill citizenship. Worf is Terran, too!

The MA page for Kriosians never mentions the word "Trill" while the MA page for Trill refers to them as the humanoid species that can serve as host to a symbiont.

That's valid speculation. But it's no more valid than mine. In the episodes, it is never defined who is the "actual" Trill, and it is never claimed that the hosts are a native species to planet Trill. For all we know, the hosts are all immigrants, and the slugs maintain a policy wherein only Kriosians or related good-looking species are allowed in, and only a select few of them are accepted as hosts, while the others have to pander for the joined pairs without even getting a slug.

While Trill and Kriosians look the same, I think they're different species.

Well, if Trills are the slugs, then yeah. ;)

I mean, with as many species that look exactly like humans, it's not hard to imagine finding two different, but similarily spotted species.

Indeed. And it would not alter my theory much if the hosts preferred by the slugs were of some other species besides Kriosians. One might even argue that there are distinct differences between the spot patterns of the two species - but one would then have to overlook the differences between the spots on Jadzia Dax in different episodes!

In any case, the Trill humanoids seem to have the market cornered on symbionts.

Or vice versa. Joined pairs seem to be the masters and deciders on planet Trill, and the unjoined humanoids work for the pairs and the slugs and even eagerly compete for the "honor" of that servitude. It would seem clear that the slugs actually dictate the joining market.

My guess is that both the symbionts and the humanoids evolved on the same planet and for millions of years of evolution, enjoyed a symbiotic relationship before ultimately separating and evolving into the current symbiotic relationship. That would explain similarities in cell structure that would allow for the apparent lack of rejection (immune response) toward the symbiont.

My guess in turn is that the slugs are predatory opportunists. They originally used their electric shocks to disable large prey for consumption. At some point, they found out that living inside the carcass was beneficial. Later on, they found that living inside a still-living victim, and controlling it with electric shocks, was even more beneficial. And eventually the degree of control got refined so far that the victim could be made to do the slug's bidding. At which point the slugs could reach out big time, and start influencing their prey through captured prey bodies.

By the time the first humanoids arrived on that planet, Trill evolution had long since reached its pinnacle, and the slugs had no trouble capturing their first sentient prey. From there, it was only a tiny hop into making the prey believe that it should volunteer for capture, just like previous nonsentient prey was already volunteering. A bit of additional experimentation, and the slugs found the perfect hosts - they convinced a bunch of Kriosians or similar species to take residence on the slug homeworld and start building an infrastructure for them.

As for large body cavities in the Trill humanoids? It's possible. Evolution is pretty efficient and doesn't lend itself to wasted space, but at one point I assume there were enough symbionts for all the humanoids, until the Trill humanoid population exploded and they had to make up rules for getting a symbiont. Or perhaps the Trill organs can be rearranged and squished but still function when there is a baby in the womb.

It might well be that the Kriosians or near-Kriosians have good body cavities for this purpose, or give birth to much smaller babies than for example humans do. But it might also be that slugs discourage pregnancies on joined female hosts, and that the children that the previous female hosts of Dax had were all born before the joining. The symbiont would still carry the memories of motherhood, as it apparently is capable of absorbing even those memories of the host that the host has accumulated before joining.

Was there not a civil war on Trill that gave us the symbiont relationship?

Yeah - in an absurdly convoluted novel. If one is willing to believe that not all spotted humanoids are Kriosians, then one wouldn't easily accept the premise of that novel...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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