Babylon 5 - How Bad was Season 5? Why?

[Mal]

I didn't watch B5 during it's original run; my question is: at the time B5 was airing, was there a general consensus that Season 5 was just utterly sub-par?

Reading The Lurker's Guide, it certainly seems that the truth pointed to itself pretty early on. Whereas Season 3 and 4 have very, very long Analysis and JMS Speaks sections, within just a few episodes, Season 5 on the Lurker Guide has maybe a few bullet points of analysis, and sometimes as little as one point of "jms speaks."

Had people simply lost interest once the Shadow War and Earth Civil War were over?

Were people immediately put off by Byron?

Did Lockley rub people the wrong way?

Were people pissed that B5's political structure made no sense (e.g., who was Earth's representative? why wasn't Londo replaced when he was made prime minister? wtf is up with G'kar being ambassador and body gaurd).

How come ISN didn't immediately report that Sheridan had requested his ex-wife be put in charge of B5?

So how bad was Season 5? And how soon was that known?

 

[js]

I remember B5 S5 getting a bad reaction pretty much immediately after the genius that was S3-S4. And yeah, Byron and poor Lochley were part of that. Along with the storyline having been already hurriedly finished up the previous season, leaving S5 to feel likely 'mostly filler'. But having just re-watched S5 as part of a year-long marathon of showing the series to a B5 newbie, I found it wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered it to be and in fact was fairly entertaining. Time wounds all heels...

 

[Thrall]

Had people simply lost interest once the Shadow War and Earth Civil War were over?

People wanted the Telepath War and/Or Drakh War they talked about at the end of Season 4. Not just a set up for it with no follow through. He did a good job setting it up. But an end to a show should not be about setting up new things you're never going to do, but rather wrapping it all up.

Were people immediately put off by Byron?

Probably not at first. When he got his digs into Lita and denied us a Zack and Lita hook up, that they had been teasing for years, by turning sweet little Lita into a vengeful, evil bitch, the yeah.

When Sherridan was holding a gun to her head to get her to stop controlling every one on the station I was like "PULL THE TRIGGER! PULL THE FUCKING TRIGGER!!"

Did Lockley rub people the wrong way?

She was Susan-lite. The fact that she fought on the side of a mass-murdering tyrant, and that she(and to some extent JMS) tried to defend her actions as noble was a bit much. Rather then being given command of B5, she should have been put infront of a firing squad. No one bought her marriage to John either.

Were people pissed that B5's political structure made no sense (e.g., who was Earth's representative? why wasn't Londo replaced when he was made prime minister? wtf is up with G'kar being ambassador and body gaurd).

Yeah that was pretty lazy writing.

 

[Rarewolf]

IIRC it was expected to end on series 4 so as much as possible was wrapped up during series 4 - the finale was shot series 4 and held over.

Series 5 is therefore slightly tagged on. Without Claudia.

 

[Neroon]

You know Mal, you could just come right out and say this is why YOU thought season 5 was so bad.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I wouldn't necessarily call it bad... it's just not as good as earlier seasons. Particularly the first half of the 5th season (the Telepath/Byron arc) was a bit weak, but it got better towards the end (the Centauri/Londo arc).

And the reason is well-known: All major story arcs were finished in Season 4, because they originally thought that there wouldn't be a Season 5. That pushed JMS into unchartered territories, I guess.

 

[sidious618]

The first half of the season is hit and miss, reminding me of season two, but the second half is stellar and I put some of them up there with the best episodes of the show. I'd rate the seasons: 4,3,5,2,1

 

[Jan]

I was there...at the dawn of the fifth season...

How bad was/is season 5? Not nearly as bad as a lot of people like to think, IMO.

It's not unfair to say that after Ivanova left, fans had mixed emotions about Lochley. I liked her better than Ivanova right off the bat. It's also not unfair to say that there was something about Byron that caused a huge dislike among some very vocal fans and it's become quite the knee-jerk reaction to rag on him. I don't get that one. And to say that season 5 gained momentum slowly would be fair - just as seasons 1 & 2 did.

But bad? Not to me. Season 5 has some of my favorite stand-alone episodes in the entire series. I'd've hated it if we hadn't seen the part of Londo's arc that had been set aside in order for the accelerated events of the Shadow war and Earth civil war in Season 4. And given that Lyta was to be a critical part of the coming telepath 'troubles', I understand why she had to be brought to the point where she could be, and the little mouse who did whatever she was asked that we'd seen before certainly wasn't there.

My only real quibble with the fifth season was the unnecessary (IMO) Lochley/Sheridan marriage.

Jan

 

[scorpius1701]

I thought most of it was good actually. I liked Lochley right from the start, never really saw her as the Ivanova-lite that most people made her out to be. I liked how she was unapologetically on Clark's side during the war, taking Garibaldi down a peg or two, and wish that more of that had gotten into the show. The Cantauri stroy was pretty first rate as Londo finally got what was coming to him. It was a more organic extension of what had come before, getting back to the Shadows and their legacy.

The problem is pretty much Byron. The only play he apparently knows and quotes is Hamlet which started to bother me as someone taking lit classes at the time. Dialogue has never been JMS strong point but Byron came across as a smug, cocky jackass who thought he knew everything. Unfortuantely, he completely brought all of his problems upn himself but not in a tragic, sympathetic way.

He betrayed Sheridan's generosity and trust and threw it back in his face without even TRYING any other way. He immediately resorted to blackmail and was surprised when everyone got all pissed off and angry, as a result losing the one and only safe refuge for human telepaths in the galaxy. Nice going. Oh and all they ever seemed to do in Down Below was hug each other which just got kinda skeevy after awhile. Anyway, i think we were supposed to think of Byron as an educated, charismatic leader but what we got was somebody that I wouldnt mind beating the crap out of, telepath or no. And thats my view on Season 5.

 

[Jan]

Did Lockley rub people the wrong way?

She was Susan-lite. The fact that she fought on the side of a mass-murdering tyrant, and that she(and to some extent JMS) tried to defend her actions as noble was a bit much. Rather then being given command of B5, she should have been put infront of a firing squad. No one bought her marriage to John either.

Susan-lite? Never in a million years. Ivanova was a shouter, Lochley (CH, people, not CK) was a thinker. Totally different characters. As for her fighting for Clark, all we know about her actions is that she didn't join the rebellion. That doesn't mean she was a collaborator who actively helped to further Clark's reign of terror. If Earthgov had put everybody in front of a firing squad for simply not actively rebelling, they'd've been awfully short of officers and politicians after the smoke cleared. She didn't portray that as anything other than trying to protect her people and if you can find where JMS said anything about that being noble I'd like to see that post. Whether you agree with it or not, it's a valid choice.

Jan

 

[Mal]

You know Mal, you could just come right out and say this is why YOU thought season 5 was so bad.

I'm in the minority, in that I've always been a huge fan of Lockley, and never really cared for Ivanova. So - for me - that was one small area where S5 was actually an improvement (I also wasn't a fan of Marcus, so him gone was a good too).

The structure of the show in S5 just seemed super lazy.

All this effort went into creating the B5 'verse prior to The Gathering: the aliens, their histories for a thousand years in each direction; etc. And then with S5... nothing.

I hate to bring up DS9, but when Sisko became Ross' adjutant, he didn't just keep his old job too. Jadzia took over the Defiant. Totally.

Londo becomes Prime Minister in 4x05 The Long Night and one whole season later he's still the freaking ambassador to Babylon 5 - are you kidding me?!?

Even after Lockley comes on board; even after the Tragedy of the Telepaths - complete with orders directly from EarthGov; Earth never appoints it's own representative to the Alliance (and Babylon 5) throughout the whole freaking season?!? Shouldn't someone in EarthDome at least have promoted Lockley to be Earth's rep., once it was clear she would have voted differently from Sheridan (such as on the telepath issue)?

G'kar: he never seems to ask permission from his government before making huge decisions (like leaving his post as ambassador to B5 and representative on the board of the Alliance) to go into harms way as a lowly body guard. Who sits in for him when he's gone?

What about Lenier? I mean the man ran weapons for Sheridan during the War. Even if he did enlist, only the most moronic military would allow him to start at the bottom! If Ivanova can leave as a ship's captain, wouldn't it make sense for Lenier to leave as a white star captain too - I mean he did want to replace Marcus, and that used to be Marcus' job.

Vir? The man killed Cartagia. I think he's ready to be ambassador.

Actually, if you look at every single character - big and small (e.g., nagrath killed off screen!) - then maybe except for Garibaldi, JMS really does drop the ball for all of them. Big time.

The show feels shallow and superficial. The small things that gave it depts are gone. That could be people (Mordan is dead, Theo is... where the fuck is Theo?).

That could be internal discord (what, now all Minbari accept Delenn? just one assassination attempt on Sheridan and that's it? I mean Sinclair was pursued more vigerously season 1, and he was just a stupid Commander!)

How about a throw-away line from Franklin about running into Ivanova, and how she's holding up (I mean, doesn't anyone care?!?!).

Season 1 was bad, but it was necessary, and at least it was building up to something. Season 5 was... just bad.

 

[JediKnightButler]

I'm with most people here in that I thought that the first half of the season with the Telepath arc was fairly weak and not particularly interesting. The early development of the IA was pretty interesting however, as well as the emerging Londo/Centauri Prime storyline. "Kingdom of the Blind" was a great early season episode and the dilemma instigated by Byron and his telepaths (wanting their own homeworld and blackmailing the ambassadors) was actually interesting- I actually don't see how the Telepath's request for a homeworld was actually that unreasonable given their contributions to the Shadow War not to mention the fact that their telepathic abilities and the reaction of many people to them (necessitating the creation of the Psi Corps) were the result of the Vorlon's genetic tinkering with humans and other races.
I wasn't too crazy about the "different POV" episodes but I thought it was neat to see things from different perspectives.
The second half of the season, specifically where the Londo/Centauri Prime storyline comes into full view up to its tragic (but exciting) conclusion ("Movements of Fire & Shadow and "The Fall of Centauri Prime" were two of the BEST episodes of S5) was the best part of the season. The remaining episodes gave the characters and series a nice "send off" with new characters filling the void left by their departures.
Overall, terrific series!!!!

 

[CorporalClegg]

Season 1 was bad, but it was necessary, and at least it was building up to something. Season 5 was... just bad.

Pretty much spot on. IMHO it's one of (if no the) worst seasons of science-fiction television.

I don't really need to go into any detail. You touched on everything and I pretty much agree with everything you (and others) said.

But for me the real stickler is Lennier. I really like Mumy (I even have one of his CDs .), and by then Lennie had become my favorite character. Then, after after watching what was done to him, my heart just sank. There was no reason for it; and, despite its intention, didn't actually create any real drama or conflict. Never mind the fact it completely went against all of his previous development.

Luckily, the first time I watch the show was on DVD via Netflix. That way, when it came time to buy, I waited until I could find season 5 used. I payed $15, I doubt I would have payed more, and that was only for "Sleeping in Light." Which, I suppose, is worth the $15 itself.

 

[Mr Light]

B5 remains my all time favorite TV show, but I really did not care for S5. It took away almost every single reason I loved the show. That said, the Centauri War was well done, and "Very Long Night of Londo" had some truly moving moments.

--Ivanova and Marcus are gone, two of my favorite characters.
--Lochely is my all time least favorite regular, not merely because she replaced Ivanova, but because she was humorless and harsh and a wet blanket on all the other characters, and as mentioned by others her secret marraige to Sheridan was a mite ridiculous.
--Sheridan went from a messianic warrior to a weeny politican in a suit. I found this particularly galling since he's one of my favorite characters. I missed John "Nuke 'Em!" Sheridan.
--Delenn (for the most part) lost her groove as well.
--Lennier became an embittered traitor.
--The storylines were over, replaced by standalones about thugs in Downbelow, which was boring even in S1.
--No Shadows, no Vorlons.
--No big action episodes. The closet thing we got was "View Gallery" or "Movements Fire Shadow" which had two brief action scenes in it. I miss the battles that take up entire episodes like in the earlier years.
--Londo and G'Kar's married couple sthick was amusing, but not as good as their earlier relationship.
--I prefered the "evil" Garibaldi to the one in S5.
--Byron. Byron. Byron. And what they did to Lyta. I never found the telepath storyline interesting, not even when Bester was involved.
--As others said, this final climactic season was just low key set up for events that were never shown.

I realize there were many extenuating circumstances for all this. They lost a day on the shooting schedule and couldn't stage elaborate action scenes. They didn't have as much money. Their CGI department was too busy doing the work on the movies. Claudia C's last minute departure. JMS loosing story notes in a hotel room. The story being wrapped up in S4 because of forthcoming cancellation.

 

[Candlelight]

I just remember being hugely disappointed and it felt like the quality had taken a nose dive. To me, season five was the Scouring of the Shire. It was added on after the brilliant conclusion in season four. Once all the water has been squeezed from the spunge you stop squeezing, you don't carry on.

Byron and the telepaths were just extremely boring, it just dragged and dragged, and then when they all ended I didn't even care, despite the episode set up for us to do that. Characters should have been written out earlier than when they did, despite their contractual obligations.

Had the Interstellar Alliance just been restricted to Rising Star and Sleeping in Light it would've been a minor mention, but in S5 it became Star Trek, with all the races living under one umbrella - something Babylon 5 deliberately tried to avoid in it's early years.

What I wanted to see in S5:

- A solid conclusion to the telepath storyline, with Bester's demise and the fall of the psi-corp. Byron could've become an active member in removing Psi-Corp, instead he was just a wining little baby.
- The Drahk War, played out much more than how we saw it in A Call to Arms, with the the final battle taking place near the Drahk homeworld, but a hidden attack on Earth leads us into Crusade.
- Characters removed earlier in the season. It took G'Kar so bloody long for him to leave it wasn't funny. By the end I just wanted someone to push him out the airlock. Babylon 5 was all about change, so they should've stayed with that.
- Reduce the Centauri storyline to about half a dozen episodes.
- Episode 512 (ep100) should've been The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. It was such a moving and powerful episode I felt it being tacked onto the end of season four made it lose some of it's impact. That said, a proper cliffhanger couldn't really be written given how season four ended.

OR

Crusade.

On a side note, did anyone want to see the Vorlon Homeworld? We only really got a small glimpse of their area of space in one episode. I'd always imagined an episode of Crusade had the Excalibur losing power and drifting through Vorlon territory, with defenses coming active and Galen going batshit crazy trying to escape...

 

[Orintho]

I thought most of it was good actually. I liked Lochley right from the start, never really saw her as the Ivanova-lite that most people made her out to be. I liked how she was unapologetically on Clark's side during the war, taking Garibaldi down a peg or two, and wish that more of that had gotten into the show. The Cantauri stroy was pretty first rate as Londo finally got what was coming to him. It was a more organic extension of what had come before, getting back to the Shadows and their legacy.

The problem is pretty much Byron. The only play he apparently knows and quotes is Hamlet which started to bother me as someone taking lit classes at the time. Dialogue has never been JMS strong point but Byron came across as a smug, cocky jackass who thought he knew everything. Unfortuantely, he completely brought all of his problems upn himself but not in a tragic, sympathetic way.

He betrayed Sheridan's generosity and trust and threw it back in his face without even TRYING any other way. He immediately resorted to blackmail and was surprised when everyone got all pissed off and angry, as a result losing the one and only safe refuge for human telepaths in the galaxy. Nice going. Oh and all they ever seemed to do in Down Below was hug each other which just got kinda skeevy after awhile. Anyway, i think we were supposed to think of Byron as an educated, charismatic leader but what we got was somebody that I wouldnt mind beating the crap out of, telepath or no. And thats my view on Season 5.

This is a pretty good assessment of season 5. Although I missed Ivanova, I liked the Lochley character. And Byron was the weak link. I never had any sympathy for his character and felt that he was no better than any of the others that used Lyta.

 

[Mal]

--Byron. Byron. Byron. And what they did to Lyta. I never found the telepath storyline interesting, not even when Bester was involved.

Byron was an ex-psi-cop, and not just any psi-cop, he was Bester's psi-cop. Tell me why the fuck these people didn't run a background check on him (and the rest of his people) before they let him create a colony on B5?!?!

I mean Garibaldi pulls Lockley's file - against Zach's wishes - and she had been vouched for by Sheridan. Granted vouching wasn't enough for Garibaldi re: Lorien, but at the time, Bester had fucked with his head.

But no one bothers to pull the file on Byron?

It strikes me as if the "mysteries" of Season 5 well bullshit.

Whereas in S1, the hole in Sinclair's head was a real mystery, and in S2-3 the nature of the Shadows and what happened to Anna were real mysteries; the stuff we didn't know in S5 - that Lockley was married to Sheridan, Byron's past - were just bullshit, and as the B5 'verse had been set up, these issues should have easily been resolved.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

--Byron. Byron. Byron. And what they did to Lyta. I never found the telepath storyline interesting, not even when Bester was involved.

Byron was an ex-psi-cop, and not just any psi-cop, he was Bester's psi-cop. Tell me why the fuck these people didn't run a background check on him (and the rest of his people) before they let him create a colony on B5?!?!

I mean Garibaldi pulls Lockley's file - against Zach's wishes - and she had been vouched for by Sheridan. Granted vouching wasn't enough for Garibaldi re: Lorien, but at the time, Bester had fucked with his head.

But no one bothers to pull the file on Byron?

It strikes me as if the "mysteries" of Season 5 well bullshit.

Whereas in S1, the hole in Sinclair's head was a real mystery, and in S2-3 the nature of the Shadows and what happened to Anna were real mysteries; the stuff we didn't know in S5 - that Lockley was married to Sheridan, Byron's past - were just bullshit, and as the B5 'verse had been set up, these issues should have easily been resolved.

I do agree that a lot of the readerly mystery, as they say in the Lit world, didn't live up to much in season five. Add one more that liked Lochley more than Ivanova, both the actress and the character. But the whole marriage to Sheridan was contrived, soapy, and out of left field. It'd have been better if they'd serve together or even just had a fling or anything but marriage. Their marriage was going beyond, as JMS says, the truth line.

Since Byron was a Psi-Cop and the Psi-Corps seems very, very insular that the EA folks on Babylon 5 wouldn't have access to to his file. However, I do think that Garabaldi being the paranoid, hardboiled detective would've tried to "obtain" Byron's file even if it meant paying someone to break into the Psi-Corp database.

 

[Mr Light]

I had no problem with our heroes not having access to the personnel files on the super secret evil Bester flunkies.

 

[Harvey]

A lot of my dislike for season five has already been covered here, so I won't spend too much time rehashing points already made. I must admit that I discovered the series on DVD a few years ago (has it been that long already?), and never saw it more than once during the original airings.

The point I will bother to restate, however, is a big one. Season five is a lot of set-up without any pay-off. And some of that set-up is excruciating (Byron is unbelievable from the large details of performance and writing down to the small details of his curiously shampooed and conditioned hair). What happened to the Keeper Londo placed in the jar for David Sheridan? What happened between Garibaldi and Bester? What happened during the telepath war? If Lyta and Lennier were killed, then when, where, how, and why did it happen? What happened to Ivonova after she left Babylon 5 to become a starship Captain? What happened during the Drakh War?

I understand a lot of those points have received pay off in the novels, or in Crusade. I know, I own them. It's beside the point. To spend the final season with languid set-up, new characters, and a number of useless standalone hours (especially useless this late in the series' life) strikes me as structurally absurd. The best pay off in the season, Londo's story in the final arc and Sheridan's story in Sleeping in Light, keeps everything afloat. But only just.

In the end, I won't espouse dislike or hate for the season. A lot of individual episodes are very strong. But as a whole, it fails to deliver. Sadly, it's no wonder Straczynski's franchise sputtered out earlier than he had hoped.