Alpha Quadrant Shapeshifters

[Crewman47]

Apologies for bringing up something that's been discussed countless times but with the known shapeshifter species, (Chameloids, Allasomorph, and maybe even the race that Capt Garth of Izar went to), why do you suppose Starfleet never employed any of them for infiltration or do youthink they might have? I mean if the Founders can infiltrate the major powers then why can't the Federtaion do the same thing, as long as there are no Founders in the infiltration zone then any Shapeshifting alien could succesfully pose either as a Vorta, Cardassian or even a high up Jem'Hadar?

Any thoughts?

 

[Kegek]

Well, if it's okay to use TAS, it was illegal in TAS for people to use shape-shifting Vendorians as spies. The same principle may apply: If the Feds can't use cloaks, maybe they also can't use shapeshifters.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

This is one thing that got me too, in 'the undiscovered country' there was that shapeshifter on Rhura Pentay who could not only change in shape but size aswell, she changed into a kid from a huge elephant sized alien . I know he/she/it couldnt change into a glass like a shapeshifter but thats some serious ability she had there (i'll call it a she ) she could even replicate Kirk and speak with his voice, why the Klingons/Federation or Romulans never used one of her species to infiltrate the Alpha Quadrant Dominion is beyond me, just posing as a new Jem'Hadar soldier could have allowed for serious sabotage.
Heck, i just thought! one of her species could probably replicate the look of a solid (odo looking) founder, could probably replicate the female shapeshifter and tell Weyoun to stand down all ships.

I think it would have made a fantastic section 31 episode if section 31 sent in an Alpha Quadrant shapeshifter to try and kill the Female shapeshifter but failed just at the last minute.

 

[Timo]

Kirk did say he thought the Chameloids (Martia's species in ST6:TUC) were mythical. Possibly they don't volunteer their services to anybody. And if they don't want to be found, it's not likely that even Section 31 would be able to find them...

Kirk has seen other sorts of mimic species or individuals: at least the Salt Vampire and Garth of Izar after the Antosian treatments. While the Salt Vampires are now extinct, the Antosians might have done a service to the Federation and modified some of its agents with this ability. Then again, the Antosians might be Federation enemies now, having been roughly treated by Garth.

I wonder how many Vendorians remain on Romulan payroll...?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[HIj'Qa]

There was the mind connection of The Great Link, too. An Alpha changeline species might be able to go all smooth faced, but there might have been something noticably absent if a Founder tried to link up.

No reason not to do a Vorta and create all kinds of havoc.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

HIj'Qa said:
There was the mind connection of The Great Link, too. An Alpha changeline species might be able to go all smooth faced, but there might have been something noticably absent if a Founder tried to link up.

No reason not to do a Vorta and create all kinds of havoc.

I doubt an AQ shapeshifter would make themselves look like a changeling when there was one around, that would be stupid for obvious reasons, but if no other changeling was present the AQ shapeshifter could make themselves look like a changeling in order to gain control over the Vorta/Jem'Hadar, heck they could probably order the Jem'Hadar to kill the Vorta for being a traitor and then take complete control without fear of the Vorta becoming suspicious.

 

[Timo]

...Assuming there isn't some secret trick that helps the Vorta and Jem'Hadar recognize a true Founder whenever they see (smell?) one.

It's not as if a Vorta or a Jem'Hadar ever recognized Odo for what he was unless they witnessed him in his "Constable" guise, to be sure... But a "secret handshake" or "hidden transponder" type thing would be useful, especially if the Founder in the room does not want to reveal himself but still wants to take control of the troops.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I would imagine the founders are far too arrogant to go around carrying a transponder for recognition and it would be a pretty dumb thing to allow a Vorta to question the validity of a founder. Can you really imagine weyoun getting a strange smell and then asking a founder to prove they're a founder, weyoun would be diced up into pig food.
If a shapeshifter walked in looking exactly like a founder and sounding like one i'm pretty sure the genetic coding of the Vorta and Jem'Hadar would make them completely obedient, I doubt the Dominion have even thought it possible for a shapeshifter to morph into a changeling.
Its not like the shapshifter is just making themselves look similar to a founder i'm talking about replicating the female changeling herself.

 

[Jono]

The Jem'Hadar didn't even seem to recognise he was a Changeling when they attacked the Defiant in "The Search", they tried to kill him after all.

 

[BolianAuthor]

The Federation could well have used shapeshifters in intel gathering. However...

The Founders are HIGHLY skilled changelings... they can literally be ANYTHING. Since they are shapeshifters by nature, they may also be skilled at telling if one species is a shapeshifter, or otherwise. Also, if another UFP-employed changeling was discovered by the Founders, it would be a good bet we would never see that operative again.

The Chameloids might not be anywhere near the UFP... Rura Penthe was a Klingon prison... deep within Klingon space... they could be Beta Quadrant aliens, or so far out, that hardly anyone has seen or heard of them, like the people from Tau Alpha C, the Traveller's race. That could explain why Kirk was not sure if they were real or not.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

The Jem'Hadar didn't even seem to recognise he was a Changeling when they attacked the Defiant in "The Search", they tried to kill him after all.

Most Jem'Hadar have never seen a changeling which is why that was probably the case, the Shapeshifter would take the shape of a Changeling and take command over Vorta and Jem'Hadar who know what one looks like, such as weyoun.

 

[Timo]

But isn't "Changeling shape" a contradiction in terms?

It doesn't seem as if true Founders would prefer any particular assumed shape over another. In the presence of Odo, they do put on a face that looks much like Odo's, but that's probably just their "cute baby face" that they use to cuddle up to this aaaaadorable Odo kid. And the shapeshifter who stayed behind to coordinate the war would have been wearing that face to please Odo during the joint Dominion-Cardassian occupation of the station.

And then the wind changed and her face got stuck like that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

We clearly see during the war time and time and time again the Female shapeshifter and other changelings take the same humanoid shape as Odo even when Odo is not even present, the female shapeshifter always takes that form when she's overseeing battles with the Breen and Weyoun, granted they might not have used that form before they met Odo but following their meet with Odo they adopted that humanoid form, so during the war a shapeshifter could more than likely have taken that humanoid form, looked exactly like the female changeling and given orders to Weyoun.

 

[Timo]

But we don't see any Founder save for the Salome Jens one take on that shape when Odo is not present. And we later learn that the Salome Jens Founder has lost the ability to shapeshift, due to the disease - in fact, she never shapeshifts again for us after the Dominion is evicted from DS9.

It wouldn't be difficult to say, then, that the Odo Face is this Founder's means of hiding her illness from her underlings. She'd say "I have to go revert to my natural form now, seeya in the morning", then go to her cabin and cry.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[All Seeing Eye]

and yet this still does not change the fact that an Alpha Quadrant Shapeshifter could have taken the form of the female changeling and ordered weyoun to stand down all ships.

 

[Timo]

Good point. However, even the loyal Vorta are in a habit of questioning outrageous orders, as we see time and again. I just wonder what sort of confirmation they usually get for the veracity of orders. Is it their good sense of smell that tells them that this currently non-shapeshifting person here really is their God? Or could Ezri Dax, wearing the right makeup and a voicebox, have stopped the war with a word?

An Alpha shapeshifter wouldn't be any better at playing God than a non-shapeshifting Alpha agent, really. The way in which the Founders change shape seems quite unique, and it would be near-impossible for an Alphan to mimic it. How many of the chameleons we have seen could do the amber transparency that is typical of Founder shapeshifts?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[misskim86]

I am sure section 31 and Tal Shiar got shape shifters working for them

 

[Timo]

And why not Starfleet Intelligence (aka the Good Guys) as well?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[misskim86]

Because it would be public knowledge and since they are forbidden..

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Because it would be public knowledge and since they are forbidden..

Why would it being public knowledge be bad? they no doubt use Betazoids to read people minds, why would'nt they be allowed to use shapeshifters? who the heck said it was forbidden?