A fuller look at the Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan fued from both sides

[Wildflowers]

First of all I would like to say that I am not starting this thread because I am trying to stir trouble. I have seen many comments where one person condemns Jeri Ryan for dating the boss - end of story and another person condemns Kate Mulgrew for treating Jeri Ryan terribly - end of story.

I was at a youtube video the other day and the comment section was full of that. I kept reading through for something to make me feel better but I didn't find such a comment, though I did not read everything there. I have thought quite a bit about what happened and I thought that a fuller look at the situation might be in order. If people think that this thread is the opposite of helpful then they can say so or not comment at all and hope it rolls off page 1 never to be on that page again. But if people think it is helpful or appropriate they could say so and/or add their own opinions to making the fuller; fuller, if they wanted to.

I'll summarize some points that Garrett and Jeri made at a con.
First Garrett talks about:
-The pr/Hook was on the first female captain
-Press goes to the captain with all star treks
-When Jeri came on all the press went to Jeri. Maybe there was a bit of professional jealousy there.
Jeri talks about:
-The studios publicity machine went into overdrive with Seven. They were very upfront about it. This was their opportunity to break star trek into the mainstream media. And they were very successful. And the publicity drive started before the character even debuted. And that just added to the tension.
-It was sort of the perfect storm because:
-You've got a new character being added
-All the press now shifts to this new character
-Writers get this new and rich character to write for. Seven became the focus for much of the first two seasons. And that's hard, of course that's going to ruffle feathers, it's going to make other actors uncomfortable and Jeri totally got it. It was handled differently by different actors.

Someone wrote, and I don't know where they got this from but that Kate is a person who hasn't played by traditional hollywood rules. I think that may be true. I remember Kate saying that someone involved with getting Voyager started said there hadn't been a female captain before and she was like: 'well why not?' Someone who played by hollywood rules might have said 'Well I'm glad you're writing one now', but not Kate.
I think there might be a story about Kate marching into someone's office and throwing a bra on the table but I don't know if that's confirmed.
I also get the idea that Kate has the great character trait of not lying or deceiving as much as some.

Also within the last 2 or 3 months I have become aware of a possible fact about Jeri Ryan. I am not going to say what it is. Not because I am trying to be mysterious, the information is out there on the net, but I just don't want to point the finger at Jeri. I am 90% sure about this possible thing being true. And so the point is that Kate may possibly have been aware of this thing and reacted.

Some people hold the steadfast view that dating your boss is always wrong and reprehensible. Well I don't hold that view, and what if your boss, or if your employee is the man or woman that you would love more than any other that you would ever meet?

Possible fuller story from Kate's point of view:

- When on her previous hit show 'Ryan's hope' she had a daughter and gave her away. However she immediately regretted it and tried to get her back but couldn't. I don't think she could even get information on her. At some Kate point hired a person or persons to find her.
- Now on her next hit show she grows close to an actress young enough to be her daughter. I think she may develop something like maternal feelings toward her. Then she finds out some other actress is coming on the show and taking her place.
- She joined a show where she as the captain, the female captain, would get most of the publicity. The rules now changed on her half way through the show.
- Any new character introduced part way through a show can cause some trouble.
- She doesn't play by hollywood rules, she is relative to some very straight up and honest, and she is for positive portrayals of women. Then over the break between seasons the young actress she has grown close to is given the boot, a sex symbol in a ridiculous cat suit is brought in taking the girls place and all the publicity is now on this new person.
- So Kate who is never late, learns all her lines on too little sleep, misses out on time with her family, to enable her to portray star trek's first female captain; is now confronted with a character that is a sex symbol in a cat suit.
- And she might have learned of that possible fact that I mentioned above, and reacted.

Possible fuller story from Jeri's point of view:

- Jeri did not get the role through dating dating Brannon Braga. Jeri in fact turned the role down on more than one occasion and only started dating Mr Braga after a couple of seasons on the show.
- It was a decision of executives of the show to sex up the role of Seven.
- Jeri may have had no idea before accepting the role that Seven was going to be sexed up.
- She was already in a tough position as the newbee on a show, but Kate's attitude just made it that much tougher.
- Jeri may have 'had' to date date Mr Braga for protection from Kate. I think the actors had three year contracts. So there may have been about a year left on Jeri's contract at that stage.


As Jeri said, it was like a perfect storm. I have a strong suspicion that Kate and Jeri would both be pretty nice to other people generally. But it was a terrible position for Kate and sadly it would seem that on this occasion she reacted terribly and bullied her co-worker.

I understand Jeri coming out a few years ago and talking of her "intentionally unpleasant" experience, even after all these years. If abuse happened, which it would seem that it did, that is a terrible thing. But the younger it happens, the more intense it is and the longer it lasts, the worse it is. Still workplace abuse is painful and damaging as well.

Thankfully Kate now regrets her treatment of Jeri. To roughly quote Garrett Wang and something Kate said to him? "All those things that happened with Jeri I feel bad and I know that I did, that I wasn't right in some of the things I did, some of the actions, words that I said".

It would be tough for some, being in the public eye and their mistakes being out there for people to critique. But Kate has shown that she has grown in this matter. But what of the people who throw zingers at Kate or Jeri over this and don't take a balanced overall approach.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

For my part, all this feud was unfortunate and both actresses took an active part in it. I mean, one (Kate Mulgrew) may have commenced "hostilities" but the other (Jeri Ryan) has taken it almost immediatiely, personally, spending her time to play the victim at the point that even Brannon Braga, testifying in "The Fifty-Year Mission (The next 25 years) by Mark Altman & Edward Gross, said "Kate Mulgrew didn't like the addition of the character at all. To say it was intense is understating the case. We let Kes Kes go, we felt the character wasn't quite working and we made way for Seven of Nine and it was not pleasant. And suffice it to say when I started to have an affair with Jeri Ryan a year or so later, it was one of the most uncomfortable moments in my career having to go to Kate's trailer t tell her what was going on, because Kate was not a fan. I don't think she had anyting against Jeri personally, but it was the character. but Jeri was not having it, either."

But again, both actresses remained very professional when the cameras were turned on and both, with the directors of s4, were able to use this palpable tension, which helped the screen chemistry in Season 4, like producers noticed it, as writers, which surely helped them in their work.
Ultimately, their scenes were fantastic.

By cons, it was bad enough that the situation was awkward between the actresses, some actors threw oil on the fire and the Executive Producer in Chief played the conspicuously absent throughout the conflict. In short, the bad mood that settled behind the scenes from s4, had adopted a responsible attitude!
Fortunately for us, this conflict between actresses did not sink the show!

The irony in all this is that journalists focused on Mulgrew/Ryan's feud then Beltran/Wang's dissatisfaction but they might as well be interested in the relationships between staff members like Berman/Braga; Braga/Taylor, Braga/Moore,because, there too, there has not been a lack of conflicts similar to Mulgrew/Ryan!


.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

We let Kes Kes go, we felt the character wasn't quite working and we made way for Seven of Nine and it was not pleasant.

She was working well enough to be safe until Garrett Wang (somehow) ended up on a poll of sexy men of TV. If the rumours are true on how Jennifer Lien was dropped from the show then that would probably get all the existing cast on the defensive--if she can be kicked out so easily then what was to stop the rest of them from the same fate? Especially after 3/4 years working together, you'd expect them to be a fairly tight bunch (maybe not best buddies but at least respectful of one another through the beginning and growth of a new show), so anyone being sacked would cause some upset among those left--made even worse by someone else being shoehorned in and becoming the new star.

 

[Sophie74656]

I can see from both sides. And honestly it doesn't matter to me. They both are amazing actresses and gave amazing performances. Their characters did not suffer for thier issues off camera. I don't think it's outrageous that some coworkers didn't get along. Especially in an industry that is largely beauty centered and in a situation like Voyager where everyone is working for 18+ hours a day. I can certainly understand how an actress can feel resentful about someone who was clearly brought on for your young skinny blonde body. Yes she is a great actress, but just look at the character and there is no uncertainty what the main focus of the character is supposed to be.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

She was working well enough to be safe until Garrett Wang (somehow) ended up on a poll of sexy men of TV. If the rumours are true on how Jennifer Lien was dropped from the show then that would probably get all the existing cast on the defensive--if she can be kicked out so easily then what was to stop the rest of them from the same fate? Especially after 3/4 years working together, you'd expect them to be a fairly tight bunch (maybe not best buddies but at least respectful of one another through the beginning and growth of a new show), so anyone being sacked would cause some upset among those left--made even worse by someone else being shoehorned in and becoming the new star.

Jennifer Lien was dropped not because she was a bad or an unprofessional actress but because, right the beginning, producers were wrong (but instead of admitting their fault, they sold the story that she had left of her own making, which was clearly contradicted by the other actors then coincidentally, rumors about her supposed drugs addiction or allergy to the glue used to her is earswer heard to justify her departure). Indeed, they presented Kes, as Neelix's Ocampa girlfriend, what was or misunderstood or considered inappropriate, instead of making her exist like a full character, with a rich background despite her young age and when they tried to finally infuse a bit of action in the character, it was too late!). For my part, I keep thinking that she could have become an unofficial counselor, who could have brought a great help to Seven in the recovering of her humanity.

About, Garrett Wang, I trully think that he would not have been too loud, knowing that 1) he had no serious experience before Star Trek: Voyager (in fact, he still was a blue when he was hired) & 2) he only owed the survival of his character through a poll of sexy men of TV and not because of his acting talents and/or his professionalism on sets.
=> in the end, his big mouth and his lax cost him, his acting career because let's be honest, it is certainly not his rare professional commitments in fans productions, which will correct his reputation!

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

But to go back to Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan, time has passed and I heard and read that Kate had since apologized profusely for her behavior to Jeri and indirectly, to fans coming in conventions and questionning her about this subject.
Maybe, it is finally time for Jeri (who still spoke about the tensions with Kate, lately) and fans to turn page on the "sad chapter", don't you think?!

What is ironic, is that Jeri Ryan experienced (similar?) tensions with Ed Wood in "Shark", where she played a DA, several years later. I have noticed that she was less and less present in late season and the beginning of season 2 then, totally absent in the second part. Looking for reasons of this situation, I have surfed on the Net and learnt that tension with the main actor, Ed Wood, and her father's illness explained her progressive disappearance. If the show has been renewed for a 3rd season, I think that Jeri Ryan would have definitively left the show!

 

[Relayer1]

I'm not a particular fan of Jeri Ryan but I can't really be objective about this as even before I heard about this I didn't like Kate Mulgrew. She was one of the biggest problems for me with Voyager and it seemed such a waste to cast someone so unlikeable as the first female captain.

I don't think it's surprising that my sympathies lie with Jeri.

 

[Sophie74656]

Jennifer Lien was dropped not because she was a bad or an unprofessional actress but because, right the beginning, producers were wrong (but instead of admitting their fault, they sold the story that she had left of her own making, which was clearly contradicted by the other actors then coincidentally, rumors about her supposed drugs addiction or allergy to the glue used to her is earswer heard to justify her departure). Indeed, they presented Kes, as Neelix's Ocampa girlfriend, what was or misunderstood or considered inappropriate, instead of making her exist like a full character, with a rich background despite her young age and when they tried to finally infuse a bit of action in the character, it was too late!). For my part, I keep thinking that she could have become an unofficial counselor, who could have brought a great help to Seven in the recovering of her humanity.

About, Garrett Wang, I trully think that he would not have been too loud, knowing that 1) he had no serious experience before Star Trek: Voyager (in fact, he still was a blue when he was hired) & 2) he only owed the survival of his character through a poll of sexy men of TV and not because of his acting talents and/or his professionalism on sets.
=> in the end, his big mouth and his lax cost him, his acting career because let's be honest, it is certainly not his rare professional commitments in fans productions, which will correct his reputation!

It was going to be either Lien or Wang. Both character were testing poorly in popularity.

 

[Wildflowers]

It would be nice to think that Kate has indeed given Jeri a sincere and thorough apology. I have seen pictures of them at a recent con where they are seated together and seem very chummy. But they are both very competent actors and pretended and acted in the past. So I can't simply take those pictures at face value. Ghislaine or others do you know of any webpages that might actually talk of an apology?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Jennifer Lien was dropped not because she was a bad or an unprofessional actress but because, right the beginning, producers were wrong (but instead of admitting their fault, they sold the story that she had left of her own making, which was clearly contradicted by the other actors then coincidentally, rumors about her supposed drugs addiction or allergy to the glue used to her is earswer heard to justify her departure). Indeed, they presented Kes, as Neelix's Ocampa girlfriend, what was or misunderstood or considered inappropriate, instead of making her exist like a full character, with a rich background despite her young age and when they tried to finally infuse a bit of action in the character, it was too late!). For my part, I keep thinking that she could have become an unofficial counselor, who could have brought a great help to Seven in the recovering of her humanity.

Have to agree that making Kes basically an extension of Neelix was an awful decision in the beginning, especially when he comes across as so jealous and almost controlling of her as well. When they finally split then she truly shone as she became a character in her own right and not solely defined by her relationship with someone else. She would've been a good companion to Seven, being a far more emotional, personable and warmer individual she could've helped Seven dig into her empathy and integrate better with the crew. Plus the PTB could've destroyed the mobile holo-emitter and had Kes more at the forefront of medical away missions, whilst also giving the EMH some restrictions and humility once more (oh well). She could've had far more to do and becoming a stand alone character midway through S3 showed that she more than had what it took to be something more than the creepy object of Neelix's obsession.

About, Garrett Wang, I trully think that he would not have been too loud, knowing that 1) he had no serious experience before Star Trek: Voyager (in fact, he still was a blue when he was hired) & 2) he only owed the survival of his character through a poll of sexy men of TV and not because of his acting talents and/or his professionalism on sets.
=> in the end, his big mouth and his lax cost him, his acting career because let's be honest, it is certainly not his rare professional commitments in fans productions, which will correct his reputation!

When you compare the Kim and Kes characters, she definitely had far more going for her whilst Kim was just dull. In the beginning having the rookie in the mix worked, but over time he never got any real development other than suffering from Geordie Syndrome and will only really be remembered as the Eternal Ensign.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

A correction: when I refered to Ryan/Woods feud in Shark, I refered to James Woods, and not Ed Wood.
Sorry for the confusion. :-)

 

[jaz'a]

It would be nice to think that Kate has indeed given Jeri a sincere and thorough apology. I have seen pictures of them at a recent con where they are seated together and seem very chummy. But they are both very competent actors and pretended and acted in the past. So I can't simply take those pictures at face value. Ghislaine or others do you know of any webpages that might actually talk of an apology?

I've never understood why fans think it is any of our business. The show ended 17 years ago. Time to move on. Both for them and for us. It happened. Sometimes shitty workplaces happen. Neither of them are in the situation now and neither of them can change it.

Maybe Mulgrew has apologised. Maybe she hasn't. It isn't something that is any of our business. Neither of them owe us an explanation.

 

[Lynx]

It was going to be either Lien or Wang. Both character were testing poorly in popularity.

Not entirely correct.

When I started to hang out on the different Voyager forums back in 1998, the most unpopular character was Neelix. He got so much criticizm that it was comparable to the anti-Wesley statements which were going on at the TNG forums a few years later.

There were also some debate about Janeway. Most fans really liked her but there were also those who didn't like the character.

Kim was regarded as dull but not as unpopular as Neelix.

Kes was hardly mentioned in those debates.

 

[Lynx]

Jennifer Lien was dropped not because she was a bad or an unprofessional actress but because, right the beginning, producers were wrong (but instead of admitting their fault, they sold the story that she had left of her own making, which was clearly contradicted by the other actors then coincidentally, rumors about her supposed drugs addiction or allergy to the glue used to her is earswer heard to justify her departure). Indeed, they presented Kes, as Neelix's Ocampa girlfriend, what was or misunderstood or considered inappropriate, instead of making her exist like a full character, with a rich background despite her young age and when they tried to finally infuse a bit of action in the character, it was too late!). For my part, I keep thinking that she could have become an unofficial counselor, who could have brought a great help to Seven in the recovering of her humanity.

About, Garrett Wang, I trully think that he would not have been too loud, knowing that 1) he had no serious experience before Star Trek: Voyager (in fact, he still was a blue when he was hired) & 2) he only owed the survival of his character through a poll of sexy men of TV and not because of his acting talents and/or his professionalism on sets.
=> in the end, his big mouth and his lax cost him, his acting career because let's be honest, it is certainly not his rare professional commitments in fans productions, which will correct his reputation!

I agree with most of what you have written.

As for Kes, she was a great character when she was given the opportunity to be that, like in episodes like "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "Warlord", "The Swarm" and many other episodes.

Despite the connection to Neelix, which should have been broken up after "Parturition", she still had a lot of independence in the season 2 episodes, sometimes it was just like if the relationship with Neelix didn't exist after "Parturition". I don't think it was too late to give Kes more action, they had all chances to do that even at the end of season 3.

The main point is that those in charge made a decision which was both wrong and stupid and then the lied to hide the real truth, that Jennifer Lien was fired for no reason at all, only because they wanted to add a "sexy babe" tho the show in order to attract teenage boys.

Jennifer didn't leave of her own free will, she wasn't fired for doing drugs and the Ocampa ears allergical problem had been solved already in season 3.

 

[Voth commando1]

Wait what is this fact about Jeri that's on the net but you won't tell us about?

I can certainly I understand why Mulgrew was upset and yet at the same time I am sympathetic to Ryan. She didn't deserve to be treated the way she was and Mulgrew's behavior doesn't strike me as virtuous much less professional.

In any case seven joined the show for four out of seven seasons not counting Nemesis and the last eps in season 3.

And by the sixth and seventh season-she wasn't the focus. Janeway, the doctor, B'lanna, even Tom and Harry had episodes in which they were the primary focus and Seven was just a secondary character or more in the background. I mean counterpoint for example-she probably had only a little more dialogue than Harry.

She did get a lot of episodes devoted to her in season 4 and 5-it may have had too much of a "pretty new girl" optic to it but a most seven eps were generally better eps and those episodes-Drone, One, Hope and Fear, etc... worked well to develop her character.

 

[Wildflowers]

I've never understood why fans think it is any of our business. The show ended 17 years ago. Time to move on. Both for them and for us. It happened. Sometimes shitty workplaces happen. Neither of them are in the situation now and neither of them can change it.

Maybe Mulgrew has apologised. Maybe she hasn't. It isn't something that is any of our business. Neither of them owe us an explanation.

First of all, what's wrong with hoping an apology had been given? Isn't that a decent thing?

Second, I started this thread in response to some nasty zingers out there, more nasty than I think my first paragraph implied. I was trying to help.

Perhaps you are for protecting actors rights. I am for protecting actors rights. I am grateful for some of the entertainment provided by actors, I get some benefit from it. But the only reason I get this benefit in the first place is because they put themselves out there. It would be hypocritical of me for on the one hand to obtain benefit and on the other put my nose in where it doesn't belong, giving undue criticism say.

But on the other hand actors, at least those of certain maturity, go into the acting business knowing what they are getting into. And some/many/most undoubtedly do it for the fame. Fame involves being under the spotlight.

Also, and you may not know this but in about 2014 or earlier Jeri did a podcast wherein a feud with a fellow actor on the show was mentioned in quite some detail. One of them involved put it out there already.

 

[Wildflowers]

It would be nice to think that Kate has indeed given Jeri a sincere and thorough apology. I have seen pictures of them at a recent con where they are seated together and seem very chummy. But they are both very competent actors and pretended and acted in the past. So I can't simply take those pictures at face value. Ghislaine or others do you know of any webpages that might actually talk of an apology?

For any that are interested I did a search and found some stuff.

From a book about 50 years in star trek put out in 2016 Kate Mulgrew is quoted as saying:
"Let's be very straight about something: This is on me, not Jeri. She came in and did what she was asked to do. No question about that, and she did it very well. It's on me....."

I had seen small pictures of Jeri and Kate from the 2015 20 year reunion. Of them up on stage and possibly selfies and they both looked chummy together. But even after reading Kate's acknowledgement in the book I was still stunned from reading Jeri's twitter from August 8 2015:
"And with our captain, the lovely @thekatemulgrew" together with a picture of them both faces pressed together, smiling at the camera. To read Jeri write that was still astonishing.

I think it was after that that I watched a 40 minute youtube video on the reunion. In this they look very happy and comfortable around each other.

So, very pleasantly, it appears that the feud is over and that they are indeed on friendly terms, if not outright friends.

 

[jaz'a]

I am grateful for some of the entertainment provided by actors, I get some benefit from it. But the only reason I get this benefit in the first place is because they put themselves out there. It would be hypocritical of me for on the one hand to obtain benefit and on the other put my nose in where it doesn't belong, giving undue criticism say.

'

My benefit is them going to work and doing their job. The 'office politics' doesn't concern me. Just as I benefit when I ring a call centre and someone is there to answer. That doesn't make the office politics there and whether they get along well with the girl at the next desk any of my business.

I think it would be great is Kate has apologised. I just don't think it is any of our business and 17 years on fans need to let it go. The ladies probably have and if they hadn't (I did know about the Jeri interview) then they need to. Also because it was 17 years ago.

Do you still talk about behaviour of your co-workers you had almost 2 decades ago? I know I don't.

 

[Wildflowers]

Wait what is this fact about Jeri that's on the net but you won't tell us about?

I can certainly I understand why Mulgrew was upset and yet at the same time I am sympathetic to Ryan. She didn't deserve to be treated the way she was and Mulgrew's behavior doesn't strike me as virtuous much less professional.

In any case seven joined the show for four out of seven seasons not counting Nemesis and the last eps in season 3.

And by the sixth and seventh season-she wasn't the focus. Janeway, the doctor, B'lanna, even Tom and Harry had episodes in which they were the primary focus and Seven was just a secondary character or more in the background. I mean counterpoint for example-she probably had only a little more dialogue than Harry.

She did get a lot of episodes devoted to her in season 4 and 5-it may have had too much of a "pretty new girl" optic to it but a most seven eps were generally better eps and those episodes-Drone, One, Hope and Fear, etc... worked well to develop her character.

I will pm you with some links if you want. (Presumably people can pm on this board, I haven't tried yet). But as I was saying I didn't want to say what that possible fact was because I didn't want to point the finger at Jeri. So I'll look to send you those if you will agree not to post that stuff on this board, unless someone else posts something similar first. So would you like the links?

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

From a book about 50 years in star trek put out in 2016 Kate Mulgrew is quoted as saying: "Let's be very straight about something: This is on me, not Jeri. She came in and did what she was asked to do. No question about that, and she did it very well. It's on me.....".

Mulgrew at least, had the courage to recognize her great responsibility in this feud and was/is regretful.

I had seen small pictures of Jeri and Kate from the 2015 20 year reunion. Of them up on stage and possibly selfies and they both looked chummy together. But even after reading Kate's acknowledgement in the book I was still stunned from reading Jeri's twitter from August 8 2015:
"And with our captain, the lovely @thekatemulgrew" together with a picture of them both faces pressed together, smiling at the camera. To read Jeri write that was still astonishing.
I think it was after that that I watched a 40 minute youtube video on the reunion. In this they look very happy and comfortable around each other.
So, very pleasantly, it appears that the feud is over and that they are indeed on friendly terms, if not outright friends.

I trully think that their duet worked very well in Voyager and my wish would be to see them again in a same production (TV show or movie) in the near future. If the scenario is great, their performance will be terrific! :-)