A freighter's maximum speed

[Wingsley]

In "Friday's Child", Scott, Sulu and Uhura were discussing a distress call just received, supposedly from the S.S. Dierdre, a frieghter. The following exchange occurred:

SULU
At best, a frieghter could do.. Warp Two...

SCOTT
I'm well aware of a freighter's maximum speed, Mister Sulu.

The message talked about ships in a convoy already having been damaged.

Of course, we later learn that the Klingons were probably faking the message, but the above exchange got me to thinking...

Scott and Sulu seem quite confident about the type of ship the so-called distress call is coming from, and what its capabilities would be.

Can we conclude from this that a certain type of space vessel (but not a Federation starship) has a maximum speed of Warp Factor 2.0? And would it also seem reasonable that this type of space vessel is not the same as, say, the Huron or Independence seen in TAS? (It seemed to me the Huron and Independence would be more advanced, and thus, capable for greater warp speeds.)

Or could it be that Sulu is underestimating the Dierdre's capabilities and Scott was dismissing Sulu's remark?

 

[Timo]

The Huron was in Starfleet registry and had Starfleet officers in command, so she couldn't be a "freighter" - Sulu would be required to call her a "transport" instead...

But it's quite possible that most Earth freighters in the mid-23rd century are of relatively similar types that have been optimized for warp two cruising. Earth had a working space infrastructure based on such vessels a century prior, and even if new technology allowed for higher speeds, there might be no economical pressure to adopt the higher speeds yet.

Clearly, Sulu would be assuming a subset of freighters there, because he already knows the claimed name of the vessel. Even if part of UFP cargo traffic was already being handled by, say, Xepolite freighters capable of warp nine or more, a SS Deirdre (or even the SS Deirdre, because that may have been a real vessel with real specs) would not be a Xepolite design.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

I suppose then, that the next logical question would be what makes a "frieghter" different than a "transport".

 

[Vance]

I suppose then, that the next logical question would be what makes a "frieghter" different than a "transport".

The terminology breaks down like this: Civilian (frieghter) vs. Military (transport)

 

[Wingsley]

So we're assuming that the Dierdre would be a civvie vessel, while the Huron was apparently a Starfleet ship, right? What does that make the Woden (remastered or not) and the two robot grain ships bound for Sherman's Planet in TAS' "More Tribbles, More Troubles"?

 

[Vance]

So we're assuming that the Dierdre would be a civvie vessel, while the Huron was apparently a Starfleet ship, right? What does that make the Woden (remastered or not) and the two robot grain ships bound for Sherman's Planet in TAS' "More Tribbles, More Troubles"?

The SS Woden would be a civilian frieghter (by virtue of being SS and not USS). The grain ships SEEM to be Starfleet, but I don't think they really specify since they're drones, and not labelled as either SS or USS.

 

[Wingsley]

Could there be another variety of vessel type, a Federation ship that's not part of Starfleet? (In other words, a civvie ship employed by the Federation, may or may not have Starfleet personnel aboard, and may work with Starfleet, but be supported by either some other non-Starfleet agency or NGO) Could this explain some of these ships?

And could Starfleet ships like the robot grain ships and the Huron, be superior to ships like the Dierdre?

 

[Vance]

Could there be another variety of vessel type, a Federation ship that's not part of Starfleet? (In other words, a civvie ship employed by the Federation, may or may not have Starfleet personnel aboard, and may work with Starfleet, but be supported by either some other non-Starfleet agency or NGO) Could this explain some of these ships?

In theory, that's what all those ships with 'NAR' prefixes are, though we're never explicitly told that. We do know that there are 'merchant marine' ships in TOS, for instance, which would imply 'usually private ships, but can be pressed for service' (like reserves or auxillaries). No one's ever really written them up before, though.

And could Starfleet ships like the robot grain ships and the Huron, be superior to ships like the Dierdre?

We don't really know what the Dierdre is, though the 'maximum of warp 2' would imply a heavy level of suck, since it would be several months to travel between two stars. The Huron would likely already be surperior even if she could just chug along at warp 5. The robot grain ships were going along with the Enterprise's cruise speed (accepted at warp 6) as well, though this may be their maximum...

 

[Timo]

The SS Woden would be a civilian frieghter (by virtue of being SS and not USS).

I'd be careful with this sort of thinking. The Enterprise was called an "SS" often enough, after all - that is, she was called "starship". Only if we expressly see or hear the two-letter abbreviation "SS" should we think that there might be something to it...

The Woden for example was never called "SS". All we heard was that she had been converted from an "ore freighter" so that she now had automation. Perhaps she had ceased to be a "freighter" in that process?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vance]

The Enterprise may have been called a 'starship', but we're also definitively told that "USS" stands for "United Space Ship". :P We're never told for sure what "SS" stands for, the the lack of "United" implies that it's not a Star Fleet vessel, though it may be flying under the flag of the Federation.

The Woden, as an automated ore freighter, seems like a civilian entity, though. It's not discussed in a military-use sense, nor does it appear as a military-registry.. though we're hitting the shortcomings of Star Trek on Hollywood as opposed to a real star-faring service.

 

[Timo]

We're never told for sure what "SS" stands for, the the lack of "United" implies that it's not a Star Fleet vessel, though it may be flying under the flag of the Federation.

Or then the lack of "United" implies that the person speaking forgot to add it, or didn't consider it worth the while to add it. Unless we see "SS" instead of "USS" stenciled on the hull or typed on a computer screen, it probably doesn't count.

The Woden, as an automated ore freighter, seems like a civilian entity, though. It's not discussed in a military-use sense, nor does it appear as a military-registry..

The ore robot might be former Starfleet hardware turned into a civilian ship, or vice versa, further confusing the issue.

In TOS-R, it would sound reasonable to assume that the Antares represents a crewed design which was later automated for use in "The Ultimate Computer" and "More Tribbles, More Troubles". We can also speculate that the robots were built first and then equipped with an optional crew module, but the story of the Woden combined with the use of the TAS robot ship design would seem to lend weight to the opposite theory. Whatever impact that has on whether the ore robot is a civilian or military design is another issue...

The impact on speed is another unknown thing. One might argue that a robot could run faster because it needs no power for life support (and although such power savings could be expected to be minimal, they do make a surprising difference in many Trek episodes), or because it needn't cater for crew comfort by maintaining strong anti-acceleration fields or toning down the radiation from the engines. Perhaps before the robo-modification, the Woden and the TAS ships could not have kept pace with a cruising military vessel, but would have been limited to warp two?

Yet one might also argue that once the crew gets offboard, the ship no longer needs to run very fast. Ore is something you might deliver on a schedule of decades or even centuries, without major economic drawbacks. (However, the tiny robots of TOS-R and TAS wouldn't make very good use of economies of scale if the trips lasted for several decades.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Wingsley]

^ Here's another wrinkle to consider:

Why does an "ore freighter" like the Woden need to be "converted to automation"? More to the point, what does an automated freighter possess that a manned freighter does not, or vice versa? Wouldn't the only difference between the two types of ships be that one has a crew module installed and the other does not?

Back to the speed issue: I suppose much of this relies, yet again, one what Warp Factor 2.0 signifies in terms of FTL deep space velocity. If you're assuming Warp 2 is just 8 times the speed of light (or "8c" for short), then assuming freighters are limited to low-warp speeds would make them pretty useless in the STAR TREK Universe, since it would take years for them to deliver anything that would be of use. I know some folks are averse to Cochrane's Formula from STAR TREK MAPS, but that controversial formula actually forms the underpinnings of the TREK Universe here as much as the franchise's episodic format.

Remember, Sulu said the best the Dierdre could do was Warp 2, suggesting Deirdre's expected typical cruising speed is even less, say, Warp 1.8 or lower.

 

[Timo]

Why does an "ore freighter" like the Woden need to be "converted to automation"? More to the point, what does an automated freighter possess that a manned freighter does not, or vice versa? Wouldn't the only difference between the two types of ships be that one has a crew module installed and the other does not?

I'd think one would either have to introduce a robot that replaces Scotty in all maintenance, repair and overhaul tasks, or then tear out the original engines and install some sort of "idiotproof", ne'er-break-down systems in their stead (probably losing some performance in the process).

Automating the guidance might be a simpler task, only requiring a few extra boxes on the bridge, M-5 style.

I suppose much of this relies, yet again, on what Warp Factor 2.0 signifies in terms of FTL deep space velocity.

If we forgo exact definitions and are satisfied with the idea that 2.0 in TOS is the same as 2.0 in ENT, then this indeed is a viable "freighter speed" by definition. Ships quoted as using that speed for transit have all been freighters, and all freighters have moved at that speed (if any is given), in ENT and TOS eras alike. The issue is pretty clear-cut in contrast with, say, defining the cruising speed of a starship or the maximum speed at which a warp fight can be fought.

Something in the "dozens of lightspeeds" range should do the trick, I guess. As said, transit times of a few months or years wouldn't really hurt the economy of an Earth Empire that was founded on such shipping speeds a century earlier.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Irishman]

^ Here's another wrinkle to consider:

Why does an "ore freighter" like the Woden need to be "converted to automation"? More to the point, what does an automated freighter possess that a manned freighter does not, or vice versa? Wouldn't the only difference between the two types of ships be that one has a crew module installed and the other does not?

I think that it's kind of dismissive to say that the "only difference" between the Woden and the Antares is that one is automated and the other is not.

Sometimes in real conversation, we don't exercise 100% economy of words. What does that mean? It means that I might say the Woden was converted to automation, where the more economical way to put it might be "the Woden is an automated freighter".

Is one more accurate than the other? Probably not. Actually, option two contains more information, because it alludes to a process by which the Woden came to be how it was.

Make sense?

 

[T'Girl]

The statement "converted to automation", to me means no crew. A relatively slow (w/f 2) ship might require no routine in flight maintenance, the Enterprise on the other hand gets push hard and would require a large engineering crew. If the ship breaks down a repair ship can be dispatched, cheaper than keeping a crew on every ship. The slow speed also imposes no economic difficulty, as long as the ships arrive at a regular rate the voyage time is irrelevant. Two star systems five light years apart, are seven and a half months apart at w/f 2, with 60 ships that one ship pulling in to port every week.