2009-10 NBA Basketball

[gblews]

Imagine, a truly great player like Kobe Bryant has only won one MVP and Steve Nash has two. It's positively laughable. Dwayne Wade, another truly great player has no MVP's and STEVE NASH HAS TWO!!!!

Kobe has played with markedly better talent. Ergo, as valuable as he is there are other players to pick up the slack when he has an off night. Dallas and Phoenix OTOH never had that luxury, so more responsibility fell on the few stars - like Nash - that they did have.

Pho and Dallas both "had that luxury", as you say. Nash has played with a lot of talent at Pho and Dallas. In fact, there really is no way a player like Nash (one whose specialty is assists) could get any recognition unless he plays on talented offensive teams.

Nash MUST play with players who can score after he passes them the ball. If Nash or any other assist specialist plays with guys who can't score, the assist totals suffer. Fortunately, Steve has had the luxury of playing on some very talented offensive teams.

Would you be arguing this much if Kobe had three MVP awards?

What??? Of course I wouldn't be, I daresay no one would. That was the point I was making in the post you quote above. Kobe is a great player. He should have at least 2 MVP's, and arguably 3.

Tell you what, add Kobe's name to the list of multiple MVP winners and notice how his name doesn't stand out like Nash's does. No one would consider it overrating Kobe. That is because Kobe is a truly great player while Nash is just a really good point guard.

 

[Neroon]

"Standing out" on that list means little to nothing, since it's all subjective in the first place. Apparently there is a great difference of opinion on the merits of an MVP type of player, opinions that take varying combinations of factors. Nobody is denying Kobe's greatness. Nobody's saying Phoenix and Dallas are bereft of talent. However as Vaughn pointed out earlier there are times when the award for "Most Valuable Player" does not go to the best player. If it did... Michael Jordan likely would have garnered several more than he did ... as would have Kobe. Talent alone does not always dictate value. Other factors include the other talent on a team, the style of play of the individual (Kobe didn't get his MVP until he became a more well-rounded player), the team's success, etc.

 

[gblews]

"Standing out" on that list means little to nothing, since it's all subjective in the first place.

Nash would stand out because he would be the only player on that list who not only has never won a championship, but has never even gotten a team to the Finals. So yeah, he would stand out and the reason does indeed mean something.

Apparently there is a great difference of opinion on the merits of an MVP type of player, opinions that take varying combinations of factors. Nobody is denying Kobe's greatness. Nobody's saying Phoenix and Dallas are bereft of talent. However as Vaughn pointed out earlier there are times when the award for "Most Valuable Player" does not go to the best player.

And as I pointed out earlier, the MVP ALWAYS went to the best player prior to Steve Nash winning his first MVP. It wasn't until the sportswriter voters needed to justify voting for a player that so obviously was not the best (Nash) that they started the "he makes his team better", argument. That argument was never heard before a few years ago.

The reason is because that year, Kobe was the best player but many of the writers didn't want to vote for Kobe because it was at the height of the Kobe hate. So, I suppose, in order to not look stupid, they came up with voting for Nash because, "he makes his team better". That year, Kobe's team wasn't too good.

Other factors include the other talent on a team, the style of play of the individual

The year Nash won his first, his team was vastly more talented than Kobe's, yet even on a team with less talent, Kobe was still far and away the better player that year. You sound like some of those writers, twisting themselves into pretzels trying to justify and explain the unjustifiable and unexplainable.

(Kobe didn't get his MVP until he became a more well-rounded player), the team's success, etc.

Well, the writers had painted themselves into a corner with the whole, "he makes his team better" crap. The year Kobe won MVP, his team was nearly the best in the league, so they kind of had to give it to him.

Did you know that one year, the Wesley Unseld won the MVP and Rookie of the Year in the same year? That was when the MVP went to the best player. That did not change until the more deserving player was also a player that sportswriters simply didn't want to vote for.

Now, you watch the criteria change back to "best player" now that Nash is no longer the media darling. It's already started with LeBron's win last season. We didn't hear any of that, "he makes his team better" crap. In fact all we heard was how crappy LeBron's team is. All we heard was was how awesome LeBron is.

Funny how things change, huh?

 

[1001001]

Who came up with the NBA schedule this year?

The Lakers have had a crazy amount of home games already. They're doing great, but in the second half of the season they're going to be on the road all the time.

I don't ever recall such a skewed home/away schedule before. Does anyone know if there's a reason behind this?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

And as I pointed out earlier, the MVP ALWAYS went to the best player prior to Steve Nash winning his first MVP.

And as I pointed that out, it clearly didn't. However, my example of Bill Russell, at least does have championships (you make a good point about Nash there). Russell didn't win because he was the best player (I could name at least a half dozen better players), but because he made his team better (he was a focal point on offense for others to score and his defense helped the team win). However, I do agree that perhaps it's disingenuous to talk about a player making a team better if he doesn't make it good enough to actually win.

BTW, I think your pro-Kobe bias has led to take a lot of anger out of Steve Nash. I might be wrong here (I was a Kobe hater in the past, although I'd like to think I've given most of it up). My only point is that I always liked Nash as a player before he got recognized. After he got recognized, I stopped caring about him so much because I could no longer call him underrated. But the intensity he plays the game can't really be matched by many other people.

 

[gblews]

And as I pointed out earlier, the MVP ALWAYS went to the best player prior to Steve Nash winning his first MVP.

And as I pointed that out, it clearly didn't. However, my example of Bill Russell, at least does have championships (you make a good point about Nash there). Russell didn't win because he was the best player (I could name at least a half dozen better players), but because he made his team better (he was a focal point on offense for others to score and his defense helped the team win).

No, when they gave the MVP to Russell, it was because (the writers were saying) Russell was the best player. That is what drove Wilt and others up a wall. If the voters back then had changed the criteria for selecting the MVP to the player who most "made his team better" (as they did for Nash), Wilt might not have been so pissed about it. He was pissed (and rightly so) because the MVP was supposed to go to the best player, and Russell was obviously not the best player. Back then Wilt was hated even more than Kobe was a few years ago and writers were loathe to vote for "Goliath".

It might have been even more unfair to Wilt since the MVP was supposed to signify who the best player was for that season back then. At least with Kobe, the writers felt the need to explain their bias.

However, I do agree that perhaps it's disingenuous to talk about a player making a team better if he doesn't make it good enough to actually win.

"Perhaps"?

BTW, I think your pro-Kobe bias has led to take a lot of anger out of Steve Nash. I might be wrong here (I was a Kobe hater in the past, although I'd like to think I've given most of it up). My only point is that I always liked Nash as a player before he got recognized. After he got recognized, I stopped caring about him so much because I could no longer call him underrated. But the intensity he plays the game can't really be matched by many other people.

Well "bias" is certainly what we're talking about here, isn't it?

My only point is that Nash, by being given 2 MVP awards (through no fault of his own), becomes one of the most overrated players in NBA history.

BTW, I'm not angry at Nash. I like the guy. It's not his fault he became a scapegoat for cowardly and biased MVP voters. I'll bet deep down he is as embarrassed (at least the second MVP) as he should be.

 

[gblews]

Who came up with the NBA schedule this year?

The Lakers have had a crazy amount of home games already. They're doing great, but in the second half of the season they're going to be on the road all the time.

I don't ever recall such a skewed home/away schedule before. Does anyone know if there's a reason behind this?

They had essentially the same schedule last season. Both the Lakers and Clips have to clear out of Staples in Feb because of the Grammys. As a result, both teams' Oct and Nov schedules get front loaded with home games.

 

[Galactus]

If I remember correctly, he had a look of "what the ....? when he won the 2nd one.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Holy frak! The Bulls blew a 35-point lead and lost at home to the Sacramento Queens, the biggest choke job since Denver blew a 36-point lead to the Jazz in 1996. I wouldn't be surprised if Vinny Del Negro gets fired on Christmas now (just like his last few predecessors). Of course, the Bulls' real problem is that they're a team full of role players and streaky shooters, and Jerry Reinsdorf is a cheap bastard who isn't willing to pay for a real coach or blue-chip free agent.

 

[Kira's Mom]

NBA suspends Gilbert Arenas indefinitely for his gun violations. Good call.

Wizards suck, anyway...

 

[SmoothieX]

What an assclown. He deserves it. Crittendon too, from the reports.

 

[Kira's Mom]

Yep. Why do people have to be such idiots?

 

[Michael Chris]

Wizards suck, anyway...

Now they really suck.

 

[tomalak301]

Yeah, the Warriors are the most injury prone team in the league, but they had a hell of a game yesterday. Just one game after bringing out an NBA rule regarding what happens when you're down to 4 players (Basically, the player who fouls out can still play, but it's a technical free throw for that and each consecutive foul), they come back with 3 D-leaguers, and play with a ton of heart. I hope Ellis makes the all-star team, and Curry makes the rookie challenge but unfortunately because they play for the warriors, they probably won't.

 

[snakespeare]

Are the Warriors more injured than the Blazers? I did not know that. The view from Portland is that we are the walking wounded and are lucky for the wins we get.

 

[tomalak301]

Are the Warriors more injured than the Blazers? I did not know that. The view from Portland is that we are the walking wounded and are lucky for the wins we get.

It's pretty much the same thing here. GS only has about 8 players, with 3 of them being called up from the D-league. The core is Biedriens, Ellis, Maggettie, and Currey.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

NBA suspends Gilbert Arenas indefinitely for his gun violations. Good call.

Wizards suck, anyway...

Crittendon pleads guilty to misdemeanor gun charge, gets 1 year unsupervised probation. Arenas should learn his fate this week.

At least neither of them shot themselves in the leg.

 

[SmoothieX]

Caught the end of the Celtics-Magic game on the radio coming home from class last night. That was quite the comeback.

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Caught the end of the Celtics-Magic game on the radio coming home from class last night. That was quite the comeback.

Yeah, I couldn't believe that. I wonder how long it'll be before the Celtics admit that KG is less than absolutely fine. He's obviously playing on one leg.

Oh, and did anyone see LeBron knocking a tray of Gatorade into the crowd after he got T'd up for complaining about a no-call? He's such a dick.

 

[Kira's Mom]

NBA suspends Gilbert Arenas indefinitely for his gun violations. Good call.

Wizards suck, anyway...

Crittendon pleads guilty to misdemeanor gun charge, gets 1 year unsupervised probation. Arenas should learn his fate this week.

At least neither of them shot themselves in the leg.

Gilbert's number 0 has never been more perfect.