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2009-10 NBA Basketball

Iverson certainly earned that one if you go either by best player or most valuable player to a team.
That year, Shaq was once again the most "valuable" player in the league even if AI had the more flashy year. That being the case, the sportswriters voted for AI as MVP. These same writers also voted Larry Brown Coach of the year, Mutumbo Def Player of the year, and that other 6er guard 6th Man of the Year. This apparently "super-talented" team led by a wunderkind coach, managed only one fluke win in the Finals against the real MVP that year.

That team had two NBA 50 Greats on it, the coach who currently has the most championships, and some of the best supporting players in Fisher and Horry. The Sixers had a heavily injured Iverson, an injured Aaron McKey (sixth man), the starting small forward out with a foot injury, and the starting point guard having returned from an injury a month before the regular season ended.

That Laker team was great. They lost one game in the playoffs. But they lost that game because the Sixers played amazingly and Iverson carried the team on his back. It wasn't a fluke win (the next two games were arguably fluke wins, since they were very close as well. One of them Shaq made a basket right after the buzzer for halftime that was counted. Before late game fouls, the Lakers were only up by two, so that could have changed the game entirely).

AI was horribly overrated. I don't know it for a fact, but I'de be willing to bet that he is is a career under 45% shooter. Its just that he took so many shots, that's why he won all those scoring titles. He was a defensive sieve, and how many assists can you hand out if you're constantly jacking 'em up from all over the court?

Iverson took that many shots because he had Eric Snow to pass to (a point guard who could not hit a 3 point shot if his life depended on it). Still, there was a year where he led the team in assists (I believe seven per game or so). He wasn't a great defensive player because of his height (he'd usually guard point guards for that reason), but he did lead the league in steals several years.
 
Then precisely why would such concessions be made to someone like Steve Nash? Why such bias if he is so overrated, then?
Well I'll tell you the reason I think it happened. At the time, Kobe was considered toxic. Many of the voters were ignorantly under the impression he gave the "order" to trade Shaq because "Kobe wants his own team". There was also the stench of Colorado hanging over him.

So in order to be able to legitimatley ignore Kobe's dominant season, the voters came up with the "he makes his teammates better thereby making his team better", criteria for selecting an MVP. Before that year the MVP was always the best player that season, not the best player on the best team. But that was the only way to justify voting for the marginally successful Nash over Kobe.

Be specific and try to cite evidence other than who is your own personal favorite. Comments like "he's won two MVP's but not won a championship" are a good start, even if that same phenomenon (MVP award but no championship) has been shown to happen in other sports as well.
We're not talking about 'other sports', we're talking about the NBA. I stated Nash was overrated strictly because he had won multiple MVP awards and had not even played for a championship. No other multiple NBA MVP has that dubious distinction.
However, then you also need to explain how LeBron, Kobe and others can win MVP in the year when they didn't win a championship.
Straw man argument. You seem to be mixing up some of the things I wrote, perhaps in order to a make a point?

I never wrote anything about Nash being 'overrated because he didn't win a championship in the years he won MVP'. I wrote that he was (once again now), OVERRATED BECAUSE HE WON MULTIPLE MVP's WITHOUT EVER SO MUCH AS EVEN MAKING IT TO THE NBA FINALS.

And believe me, if Lebron wins another MVP and never wins a ring, I'll be on him also. But at least Lebron will be able to say he at least made it to the Finals, won't he?
 
That team had two NBA 50 Greats on it, the coach who currently has the most championships, and some of the best supporting players in Fisher and Horry. The Sixers had a heavily injured Iverson, an injured Aaron McKey (sixth man), the starting small forward out with a foot injury, and the starting point guard having returned from an injury a month before the regular season ended.
You missed my point. My point was that the same voters who made the mistake of voting for Iverson as MVP that year also mistakenly chose the NBA Coach of the Year, 6th Man of the Year, and Defensive Player of the Year, from the 6ers, thereby making them look like a "super team". Obviously they weren't any super team as we watched the Lakers brush them aside like gnats.
That Laker team was great.
Undoubtedly. If that Lakers team had been voted those awards, Shaq for MVP, AND DPOY, and Phil Jackson Coach of the Year, no one would have blinked an eye at what they did to the 6ers and the other teams in the playoffs that year. But giving all those awards to the 6ers just made the voters look silly.
They lost one game in the playoffs. But they lost that game because the Sixers played amazingly and Iverson carried the team on his back.
You nearly give the very definition of "fluke win" here. In the Finals, sometimes fluke wins happen and many times when they do, the team that is on the wrong end of one ends up losing the series. In proving that game 1 was a fluke, the 6ers not only didn't win the series, they were unable to duplicate that fluke win even with 3 chances at home! That's because the Lakers had no 7 plus day layoffs again and because the first game was...a fluke.
It wasn't a fluke win (the next two games were arguably fluke wins, since they were very close as well. One of them Shaq made a basket right after the buzzer for halftime that was counted. Before late game fouls, the Lakers were only up by two, so that could have changed the game entirely).
The only reason the 6ers managed that win was because they played out of their minds, but mainly because the Lakers had a long layoff (more than a week) because of sweeping all their previous opponents. Had it not been for the layoff, the 6ers would have been swept also.
Iverson took that many shots because he had Eric Snow to pass to (a point guard who could not hit a 3 point shot if his life depended on it). Still, there was a year where he led the team in assists (I believe seven per game or so). He wasn't a great defensive player because of his height (he'd usually guard point guards for that reason), but he did lead the league in steals several years.
That Iverson took so many shots was part of the 6ers offensive scheme. Did I mention that Larry Brown was also horribly overrated as a coach?

Height really doesn't stop you from being a good defender. Lack of execution of defensive fundamentals stops you from being a good defender. The fact that Iverson led the league in steals was a symptom of Iverson's lack of defensive fundamentals. For Allen, defense was all about shooting the gaps and gambling. Without Mutumbo backing him up, there is no way Allen would have had all those steals. Everyone would have been talking about all those easy baskets he gave up trying to steal the ball.
 
Just compare Steve Nash career stats to Allen Iverson and that should tell you why he is overrated. I wouldn't even say that he is better than Jason Kidd who actually made it to the Finals. Nash couldn't even get past the Mavs to get to the Finals. MVP please.
 
Steve Nash is in no way overrated. He is the best player in the league right now.

I'll ask you the same thing, then. How do you come to that conclusion?

Because of his amazing contribution to the team. His intelligence and skill just bring any team to an entirely different level. He's not as naturally gifted as some other players, he's not as fast, and he's not as tall. His awareness on the court and his understanding of what needs to be done are what makes him the best player.
 
Steve Nash is in no way overrated. He is the best player in the league right now.

I'll ask you the same thing, then. How do you come to that conclusion?

Because of his amazing contribution to the team. His intelligence and skill just bring any team to an entirely different level. He's not as naturally gifted as some other players, he's not as fast, and he's not as tall. His awareness on the court and his understanding of what needs to be done are what makes him the best player.

One could very well say the same thing about a player like Rajon Rondo (though substitute not as fast with can't shoot), but I'd be hard pressed to make the bold claim he's the best player in the league.

The phrase "best player" is too often bandied about carelessly if you ask me.

-Jamman
 
Steve Nash is in no way overrated. He is the best player in the league right now.

I'll ask you the same thing, then. How do you come to that conclusion?

Because of his amazing contribution to the team. His intelligence and skill just bring any team to an entirely different level. He's not as naturally gifted as some other players, he's not as fast, and he's not as tall. His awareness on the court and his understanding of what needs to be done are what makes him the best player.

Wow is it 2009 or 1979? I keep checking my calender to make sure, but I really can't tell anymore.
 
I'll ask you the same thing, then. How do you come to that conclusion?

Because of his amazing contribution to the team. His intelligence and skill just bring any team to an entirely different level. He's not as naturally gifted as some other players, he's not as fast, and he's not as tall. His awareness on the court and his understanding of what needs to be done are what makes him the best player.

Wow is it 2009 or 1979? I keep checking my calender to make sure, but I really can't tell anymore.
Going to be honest, wasn't born yet so I have no idea what that is a reference too.
 
I have a pretty good appreciation of classic Basketball, but I still have no idea what this is referring to.
 
Ditto.

Unless Galactus ... ... are you referring to Larry Bird, per chance?
 
To a point. Larry Bird was a great basketball player through and through, but back in the day sports reporters, writers, and fans would use phrases like Michael to describe him as if he had no natural skill and the other players did not work hard.

I am an old guy, so when I hear stuff like that it brings up all the bad times when people used to always say "white men can't jump" and all the black players "were born with so much natural talent". The worse was if a white player was really good and had smooth moves "he was just passing for white".

I really didn't want to mention any of this, because I don't want to bring the thread down. But it is kinda like when A-Rod was with the Rangers and they wanted to come up with a new definition of MVP to give it to someone else because he was playing for a losing team.
 
Yeah, those losses to the Knicks & the Cavs were truly painful. At least they slightly recovered against the Cavs. (Though they were down by 30 at one point, they came back to lose by only 17.)

Best I can figure is, since Mike D'Antoni & Shaq both used to be with the Suns, maybe they found themselves in a unique position to help their teams formulate a strategy to shut them down. So far, when the Suns lose, they lose big. Every single one of their losses was at least 15 points.
 
I just want to congratulate the New Jersey Nets for getting their first win against any other team other than the Warriors. Now on Wednesday if GS loses, it won't be as embarrassing.
 
I wouldn't even say that he is better than Jason Kidd who actually made it to the Finals.
Good point. Jason Kidd (in his prime) is another point guard I'de take over Nash (in his prime) in a heartbeat. Kidd was a great defender, Nash has never even been a even a good one, which is yet another reason Steve has never (and probably, will never) play in the Finals.
 
Because of his amazing contribution to the team. His intelligence and skill just bring any team to an entirely different level.
Yes, but unfortunately the "level" to which you refer, has always been a couple of levels lower than any other multiple MVP winner has taken his team.

I also question the "bring any team to an entirely different level". This isn't as easily quantifiable as Nash's lack of MVP worthiness, but I have a very hard time believing Nash could get most, or any, of the mediocre teams in the league up to respectability.

In all his years with the Mavs, did Nash ever even get them into the conference finals? I don't think so. It took getting rid of Nash to get the Mavs up to that next "level".
 
I'd argue Nash was deserving of the award because of the quality of the teams he was playing on while putting up the numbers he was putting. Anyone can have an amazing statistical season when they're on a great team. Nash's supporting cast has changed over the years, but his numbers haven't.

It takes real talent to put up good numbers when you're the best player on a mediocre team.
 
I'd argue Nash was deserving of the award because of the quality of the teams he was playing on while putting up the numbers he was putting. Anyone can have an amazing statistical season when they're on a great team. Nash's supporting cast has changed over the years, but his numbers haven't.
Are you talking about the Suns? Those first Suns teams Nash played on were loaded with offensive talent. In addition to Amare, the team had Shawn Marion, Leandro Barbosa, Raja Bell (at the time, a real good 3 point shooter). These are just the ones I can think of right now. Nash has never played on a Suns' team that lacked top notch talent.

Now, he did play on some Mavs' teams early on that were not that talented and on those teams Nash's presence did nothing to raise them to the next level.
 
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