It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind

[Mal]

10 years after the Earth-Minbari war...

I'm resolved to watch for the Nth time my all-time favorite piece of science-fiction: Babylon 5. Yesterday I saw 1x01 Midnight on the Firing Line, and I was surprised at just how fast-paced the show is! With the election going on, there really does seem to be a immediacy to the drama, and you can really feel that change is in the air.

Also, for a 1 hour set-up (not counting The Gathering), the episode does a fantastic job at fleshing out the characters. Londo's first line is Ah, Mr. Garibaldi! How perfect! And we learn that he'll be locked in a death-match with G'kar in 20 years (we hear about it three times - once with Sinclair; once Sinclair warning G'kar that "not every dream" ends well for him; and once again from Londo to an unaware Garibaldi).

Ivanova's hatred for telepaths is set up in the only slow-paced scene in the entire hour (and it works so well, since Garibaldi explains, Ivanova likes to wind down after work; she's in her civi's).

Vir makes his appearance, floundering.

Even Kosh gets to be enigmatic (They are are a dying race. They should be allowed to die. Sinclair: Who, the Narn or the Centair. Kosh: Yes).

We'll see a complete reversal of the Narn/Centauri goodguy/badguy dynamic by the end of the season, but the the set-up as is, is fantastic (we even learn that Narn was under Centauri occupation for 100 years).

I'll post a couple thoughts each episode in this thread as I go through the show. Don't expect spoiler-code or the like - I've seen this show so many times I can hardly count. I want to actively observe how the show builds up to the grand themes that come to fruition 4 or 5 years down the line.

I encourage you to come along for the ride.

And so, it begins.

 

[G2309]

I first started the series a year ago i can be a bit behind with these things. I like watching series by boxset though having to wait a week to see how some of the plot lines progressed.

 

[RandyS]

I'm curious Mal, why didn't you start with The Gathering? Personally, I'd have started with In the Beginning (and in past re-watches I have), then The Gathering, but I can understand why some fans don't want to.

Anyway, looking forward to following your reviews.

 

[Mal]

I'm curious Mal, why didn't you start with The Gathering? Personally, I'd have started with In the Beginning (and in past re-watches I have), then The Gathering, but I can understand why some fans don't want to.

Anyway, looking forward to following your reviews.

Why don't I start with The Gathering? Tradition!

When I first watched B5 (waaay too many years ago), my friend refused to allow me to watch the Gathering until after Season 3. (Actually, he didn't even mention that it existed; he simply didn't lend me his copy of The Gathering until I was "ready" for it. I suppose, friends don't let friends watch The Gathering before S3 ).

Anyway, the theory is that because Kosh greets Sinclair as Entilzah Valen, it would totally ruin the entire Babylon 5 experience if you started with The Gathering (Is there a melodrama font?). So we wait till after War Without End, wherein we all "learn" that Sinclair = Valen I use quotes around "learn" because, well, I've seen the damn show more than 10 times - it's insane that I still need to prevent myself from being spoiled at this point!

Like I said, tradition!

 

[RandyS]

I'm curious Mal, why didn't you start with The Gathering? Personally, I'd have started with In the Beginning (and in past re-watches I have), then The Gathering, but I can understand why some fans don't want to.

Anyway, looking forward to following your reviews.

Why don't I start with The Gathering? Tradition!

When I first watched B5 (waaay too many years ago), my friend refused to allow me to watch the Gathering until after Season 3. (Actually, he didn't even mention that it existed; he simply didn't lend me his copy of The Gathering until I was "ready" for it. I suppose, friends don't let friends watch The Gathering before S3 ).

Anyway, the theory is that because Kosh greets Sinclair as Entilzah Valen, it would totally ruin the entire Babylon 5 experience if you started with The Gathering (Is there a melodrama font?). So we wait till after War Without End, wherein we all "learn" that Sinclair = Valen I use quotes around "learn" because, well, I've seen the damn show more than 10 times - it's insane that I still need to prevent myself from being spoiled at this point!

Like I said, tradition!

Kosh greets Sinclair as "Valen"?? I've seen The Gathering many times, and I don't remember this scene. Yeah, I know the DVD version is different from the 1993 aired version (which I also saw when it was new), so maybe that scene is there and I just don't remember.

You're right, it is insane to remain spoiler free at this late date, but what the hell. I can certainly understand the need for tradition. I don't see the need for it in this case, but I can understand it.

 

[Warped9]

I've just finished running through all five seasons through the boxed sets...and I'm actually thinking of doing it again.

But first I'd like to get the B5 films including "The Gathering" and most particularly "A Call To Arms."

 

[Mal]

Soul Hunter

I know you. You were there at the death of Dukat. They called you Satai Delenn of the Gray Council. What is a member of the Gray Council doing here playing ambassador?!?
​

1x02 Soul Hunter really kicks it up a notch. But before I go on, do you believe in souls? The concept is pretty central to B5 (along with death, especially for telepaths like Bester). And if you do believe in the Soul, do you believe it dissipates after death (as the Soul Hunter claimed), or do you follow the Minbari belief, that souls join the collective, and are re-born into the next generation. Remove one, and the whole suffers. Thoughts?

We meet Steven (who seems to start off with a slight Kyle-esque african accent). He immediately mocks the concept of a soul, and thus sets the stage for his general disdain for religion.

Soul Hunters also marks one of the early JMS attempts at humor that falls flat. When Garibaldi asks Steven how the alien is doing, Steven says his blood pressure is rising. "That's good?" asks Garibaldi. That depends, replies Franklin. It's good for a human, but with an alien, it could be a prelude to his heart exploding. To this pedantic reply, Garibaldi gets off a nice under-the-breath remark "ask a silly question, get a silly answer." I laughed. Then Sinclair and Delenn walk in, ask for a sit. rep., and Garibaldi gets off a good one again: "Doc says it's 50/50," but then JMS pushes it too far: "either way I'd stay on this side of the glass if I were you." And then JMS just drops the ball altogether: "trust me on this one." JMS is a Great Maker, but not the best comedy writer...

Nagrath - one of my biggest regrets of B5 is that Nagrath doesn't get developed in the way DS9 got Quark. At the very least, they could have kept him on as the underworld Don throughout the show. Instead, we see him a couple more times, and then he's killed off-screen, and we get a series of stock-sterotyped thugs running down below, culminating in the absolutely awful Australian in 5x06 Learning Curve.

Finally we learn that Sinclair is being used. The Soul Hunter implies the Minbari are using him (and maybe they are), but the real culprits are the Vorlons...

 

[StarshipDefiant]

I'm curious Mal, why didn't you start with The Gathering? Personally, I'd have started with In the Beginning (and in past re-watches I have), then The Gathering, but I can understand why some fans don't want to.

Anyway, looking forward to following your reviews.

Why don't I start with The Gathering? Tradition!

When I first watched B5 (waaay too many years ago), my friend refused to allow me to watch the Gathering until after Season 3. (Actually, he didn't even mention that it existed; he simply didn't lend me his copy of The Gathering until I was "ready" for it. I suppose, friends don't let friends watch The Gathering before S3 ).

Anyway, the theory is that because Kosh greets Sinclair as Entilzah Valen, it would totally ruin the entire Babylon 5 experience if you started with The Gathering (Is there a melodrama font?). So we wait till after War Without End, wherein we all "learn" that Sinclair = Valen I use quotes around "learn" because, well, I've seen the damn show more than 10 times - it's insane that I still need to prevent myself from being spoiled at this point!

Like I said, tradition!

Kosh greets Sinclair as "Valen"?? I've seen The Gathering many times, and I don't remember this scene. Yeah, I know the DVD version is different from the 1993 aired version (which I also saw when it was new), so maybe that scene is there and I just don't remember.

You're right, it is insane to remain spoiler free at this late date, but what the hell. I can certainly understand the need for tradition. I don't see the need for it in this case, but I can understand it.

I believe it's in the DVD version (or the 'special edition') in which Kosh greets Sinclair as Valen. I suppose I can see the line of thinking to wait as far as the special edition goes because of that factor, the original version as far as I recall, does not have that particular line. Though, I suppose one could watch the original version instead if they had a copy of it, as it does 'introduce' several elements but I suppose "Midnight on the Firing Line" re intros things, so...

 

[Mal]

Kosh greets Sinclair as "Valen"?? I've seen The Gathering many times, and I don't remember this scene. Yeah, I know the DVD version is different from the 1993 aired version (which I also saw when it was new), so maybe that scene is there and I just don't remember.

You're right. If you watch it on The Gathering for free on Hulu, Kosh does not say the word Valen, but if you have the DVD, as I do... well, then he does.

 

[JoeD80]

"Doc says it's 50/50," but then JMS pushes it too far: "either way I'd stay on this side of the glass if I were you." And then JMS just drops the ball altogether: "trust me on this one." JMS is a Great Maker, but not the best comedy writer...

I thought that scene was funny. And you need look no further than The Real Ghostbusters to see that Joe can write good comedy.

Nagrath - one of my biggest regrets of B5 is that Nagrath doesn't get developed in the way DS9 got Quark. At the very least, they could have kept him on as the underworld Don throughout the show.

n'grath wasn't kept around because Joe thought he didn't really come off like a sentient being the way he wanted him to.

 

[Reverend]

Kosh greets Sinclair as "Valen"?? I've seen The Gathering many times, and I don't remember this scene. Yeah, I know the DVD version is different from the 1993 aired version (which I also saw when it was new), so maybe that scene is there and I just don't remember.

You're right. If you watch it on The Gathering for free on Hulu, Kosh does not say the word Valen, but if you have the DVD, as I do... well, then he does.

I think the real reason to hold off on letting someone watch 'The Gathering' until they're already into the show is that it's not really very good and may put someone off. I've always had a hard time watching the original cut (I remember renting the VHS back in the day and barely getting all the way through.) The Special Edition fixes allot of the problems, re-inserting vitally important character scenes and cutting out the gorrilla bartender and the zoo in the alien sector, but it's still unavoidably off in places.
I don't think anyone coming in fresh would be spoilt by the Valen line; I doubt it'd even register. It's one of those lines that you'll only pick-up on the significance of on the second watch through. Like say Delenn's first words to Lennier: "I cannot have an aid who will not look up, he will be forever walking into things."

 

[Deckerd]

I've been watching it through again, since I bought the entire boxed set last year. I have to say it hasn't aged well. I used to love this show but revisiting it seems to have been a mistake so far.

 

[Hermiod]

Catching the odd episode of this on FX lately has made me want to go back through it from the start.

As I said in another thread, I really wish I could see it for the first time again.

 

[Pauln6]

Well the prequel gives the game away in any event so I guess they figured it didn't matter if they put something in the Gathering. I wasn't overly happy that they gave the game away on the whole Darth Vader thing in SWIII. I'd rather they just dropped hints instead of spelling out completely blatantly.

 

[Deckerd]

Well the prequel gives the game away in any event so I guess they figured it didn't matter if they put something in the Gathering. I wasn't overly happy that they gave the game away on the whole Darth Vader thing in SWIII. I'd rather they just dropped hints instead of spelling out completely blatantly.

This might be a good point if the whole world and his dog hadn't already seen the first three films. It's not like it's a giant spoiler or anything.

 

[David cgc]

Well, there's a school that says the movies should make dramaturgical sense in numerical order. Though I'm not sure how you could do it based on how Obi-Wan lied. You'd need a second apprentice to Obi-Wan who was flirting with the dark side. It'd probably only work if you played Anakin's fall really close to the vest, mostly off-screen, so you had to be looking for it, and had the guy who you were supposed to think was Darth Vader be a lot more overtly evil, which probably would've made the movies something of a jumble, since Obi-Wan would have two lousy students, but the one who was actually worse seemed to be better.

 

[Pauln6]

Well, there's a school that says the movies should make dramaturgical sense in numerical order. Though I'm not sure how you could do it based on how Obi-Wan lied. You'd need a second apprentice to Obi-Wan who was flirting with the dark side. It'd probably only work if you played Anakin's fall really close to the vest, mostly off-screen, so you had to be looking for it, and had the guy who you were supposed to think was Darth Vader be a lot more overtly evil, which probably would've made the movies something of a jumble, since Obi-Wan would have two lousy students, but the one who was actually worse seemed to be better.

Nah, I think if Obi Wan left Anakin burning and legless by the lava flow that's all you need - we don't need to see Anakin again in SWIII, we don't see Padme die (lame - she can just go off to Alderaan with her daughter and die of a broken heart off camera where at least Leia's recollections make some sense) and we don't need a bunch of wasted scenes about the senator wanting to adopt etc. We'd have saved half an hour of unnecessary end tying.

Ben's lie could then be interpreted as not wanting to admit the truth about kiling his father. Sure it's still pretty obvious to most adults that Vader is probably Anakin but it is a children's franchise - I think it would be more fun for future generations of children to learn who Vader is in the same way that I did as a child even if they watch the films in order.

 

[Mal]

Born to the Purple

Gentlemen, of all things in life, are females not the finest!
​

Ah Londo, how I love thee. Let me count the ways. There is of course Adira Tyree, your one true love in all of B5. And there is your light singing on your way home - I half expect you to be assaulted by an old dueling partner, but that is still a season away (i.e., Knives).

I love 1x03 Born to the Purple! Not for any rational reason (love is hardly rational). Still, I have always felt the episode is severely underrated; it does such a great job of setting up joker-Mollari, and how wonderful it is to see him laugh, when we know that he will end this show all alone, not even his own Keeper...

I remember watching the episode for the first time: each little piece seemed sweet, if trivial. But now, every scene becomes ominous! Starlaces - oh my God, Morden! The Broach - oh my God, Morden! In fact, the whole episode plays as a set up for Season 3's fantastic Interludes and Examinations. Tack on Day of the Dead, and most especially, Londo's riveting scene in Into the Fire: He played me! He played me like a puppet! And gradually my love for Born to the Purple doesn't seem quite so irrational.

I love the scene with Londo and Adira in bed: Londo calls himself a "washed up old Republican dreaming of better days" and Adira says "These are my better days, Londo." Women certainly can lie!

A quick note - if the show was made today, who wants to bet that Vir would not be playing a hand-held at the negotiations? Rather, he would be frantically checking his blackberry or iPhone (or at least pretending to, all the while updating his Facebook status ah, progress!).

Oh, and do you think Sinclair and Talia ever got it on? I mean, he didn't take anyone else to Fresh Air other than Sakai (and others along with Sakai). It is one thing to treat someone at work for helping out on a project. It's quite another to use Earthforce funds to try and wiggle your way into the pants of a hot blond

B plot - Garibaldi and Ivanova and Gremlins. Bleh. Season 1 Ivanova was so annoying.

 

[Sakrysta]

^Actually, I think Vir would have indeed been playing on his DS. A Blackberry would be too corporate for him. He's just an overgrown teenager at this stage in the show.

One thing I love about B5 that I would probably hate about any other show is how much it looks like a production of its era. Everything about it is SO 90s sci-fi, and yet it still manages to hold its appeal as a series all these years later. Hair styles, set design, costumes - it all screams "what we thought the future would look like back in the 90s." And I love it.

 

[Forbin]

Alotta Fagina FTW!
Gorgeous woman.