It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind

[Reverend]

Seeing as how IPX was more or less a front to get their hands on alien technology (organic weapons and similar stuff) it's it's mostly semantics anyway.

There were regular employees, "temps" and consultants/passengers. Some were closer to the inner circle while others had no clue what was really going on.

Exactly. There's a difference between being hired by IPX and being in on what they're really after. Having said that, the whole thing about them being a front is a little complicated: -

SPOILER WARNING: For anyone who hasn't read the Psi Corps books
In the first of the Psi Corps books you have them finding Shadow or Vorlon tech (it's a bit ambiguous) fragments out on Syria Planum about a century before they find the full blown shadow vessel and bringing them back the San Diego. Long story short, by the end of if you have Vacit gaining some leverage on the corporation so they're "working for him". So this implies they're in the MRA's (and later on presumably Psi Corps') pocket.

Somewhere along the line Vacit creates Department Sigma and sticks Lyta's granny in charge, which bases itself right out of the Psi Corps Center in Syria Planum (the one Talia spoke to in 'Voice in the Wilderness') and it concerns itself with enhancing teeps, investigating the origins of teeps and hunting down any further traces of the Vorlons or the Shadows.

Where it gets complicated is where does the connection between IPX and EF Bio-Weapons & EF New Technologies come from? I think the answer is with the Psi Corps Director Johnston (a mundane) getting his hooks into Sigma, eliminating a lot of the old school people and putting his own (those raised as normals rather than by the Corps) in strategic positions. Johnston was said early on to be ex-military which probably means Earthforce and after the Minbari War that connection probably meant they got an in with the Corps.
That's probably why Bester was shut out of the Morden/Shadow with Earthdome deal and why he shoehorned Donne onto the Icarus mission and why Earthforce got in bed with IPX and ended up developing Shadow Hybrids.

 

[Mal]

1x08 And the Sky Full of Stars

Everyone lies, Michael. The innocent lie because they don't want to be blamed for something they didn't do. And the guilty lie because they don't have any other choice. Find out why he's lying. The rest will take care of itself.
​

- Sinclair, talking like a Vorlon.

See, another corrupt station security guy. This is why Infection should have started off with Nelson bribing at customs, not killing the agent!

Franklin asks: What about you ambassador, what did you do during the war? Oh, if only he knew...

Ah, the Sinclair flash-back from The Line. Used again and again and again. My favorite use has to be in In The Beginning.

I have to say, I liked DS9's Inquisition more, but Inquisition didn't have the gravity of this B5 episode. Sinclair's hole in the mind is central and pivotal. And the reason why the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line goes to the very heart of what the Babylon 5 universe is all about. DS9's Inquisition, though far more slick (and much more fun: Sloan is far better than Knights #1 & 2, and dare I say it, Bashir is better than Sinclair), yet the significance DS9's version simply pales in comparison.

Trivia: We see the guy who shoots Garibaldi in the back. He reinstates Benson (the gambler).

Continuity problem:
When Sinclair goes to Delenn's quarters to thank her, she asks him if he remembers anything. He lies and says no. Then some random Minbari dude, with a shiny silver triangle on his forehead (a shadow detector?) says that if Sinclair remembers, he must be killed. WTF?!?!?! Kill a man with a Minbari soul?!?! And not just any soul; the soul of freaking Valen himself?!?! Maybe JMS hadn't quite worked out the whole no-Minbari-has-killed-another at this point. Or do you have any ideas as to what's up with this?

 

[Aeon]

As far as I know, originally the Grey Council wasn't so sure what Sinclair was. According to the prophecy he was either the savior of their species or the one who brings destruction. The Religious Caste was already leaning towards the first choice and the Warrior Caste for the latter.

 

[JoeD80]

Trivia: We see the guy who shoots Garibaldi in the back. He reinstates Benson (the gambler).

He's there because it ties into the arc; he's already in on the conspiracy here. Note that Bester communicated with him in "Mind War" as well.

Then some random Minbari dude, with a shiny silver triangle on his forehead (a shadow detector?) says that if Sinclair remembers, he must be killed. WTF?!?!?!
...
Or do you have any ideas as to what's up with this?

He's Grey Council; according to Joe he's saying if the knowledge about Sinclair/Valen gets out too early before everything is figured out it will tear the castes apart, so his soul needs to be "recycled" by killing him to prevent that.

 

[Mal]

1x09 Deathwalker

Not like us? You will become us.

- Warmaster Ja'dur (aka Deathwalker)
[N.B. I always think of OmahaStar when I hear that line]

Talk about a meaty episode! Waozers!

You know, we get a decent view of the Earth-Minbari war from Atonement and from In The Beginning. But we don't get anything (beyond this episode) on the Dilgar war. That would make a great prequel - don't you think? It took place 30 years ago, and the slate would be blank. At one point in the past, wasn't JMS offered the chance to run Enterprise? He turned it down, but this could be an Enterprise done right! After all, the Dilgar war was Earth's coming out party, wasn't it? Added bonus, no matter how closely they crop Sheridan's hair, they won't be able to make him seem 30 years younger So all brand new actors.

B Plot: Kosh records dirt on Talia for use after Divided Loyalties. Glad to see at least someone was planning ahead.

So question: If it was you (and you didn't know that the Serum required killing to be synthesized) would you have tried and executed Deathwalker straight away (ala Voyager's Nothing Human), or would you have allowed her to first perfect her wonder drug?

 

[Reverend]

Continuity problem:
When Sinclair goes to Delenn's quarters to thank her, she asks him if he remembers anything. He lies and says no. Then some random Minbari dude, with a shiny silver triangle on his forehead (a shadow detector?) says that if Sinclair remembers, he must be killed. WTF?!?!?! Kill a man with a Minbari soul?!?! And not just any soul; the soul of freaking Valen himself?!?! Maybe JMS hadn't quite worked out the whole no-Minbari-has-killed-another at this point. Or do you have any ideas as to what's up with this?

JMS did address this back in the day: -

"First, understand that Minbari believe in reincarnation.

Second, as noted in ItB, if the Sinclair/Valen/soul issue got
out, it would likely tear Minbari society apart. The repercussions
would be devastating on every possible level, if it came before they
could be prepared properly.

In light of that, with or without a Minbari (or Valen's) soul,
better to sacrifice Sinclair (who will be reborn anyway, and maybe next
time in a proper Minbari body) than see Minbar damaged. Remember, they
don't know about the time loop, they see it as a straight-line
progression.

jms"
​

 

[hyzmarca]

You know, we get a decent view of the Earth-Minbari war from Atonement and from In The Beginning. But we don't get anything (beyond this episode) on the Dilgar war.

There is a great deal of canon JMS-approved information on the Dilgar war, enough to reconstruct the whole thing, including detailed information about the major players. It's just that it was published in RPG and wargame form, rather than in a novel or screenplay.

 

[Mal]

Believers

The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
​

This is the first real Franklin episode. Coming on the heals of Deathwalker, it makes me very glad that in B5 (unlike in Voyager's Nothing Human), the ethical opposition to using a serum created by a mass-murderer was voiced in Deathwalker by Michael Garibalid, not Dr. Franklin. Otherwise, two episodes back-to-back would have been a bit much.

On that note, I just want to mention how much I appreciate Michael and Jeff's relationship. They have a history and a trust that extends far beyond simply serving together. Michael obviously won't have that type of friendship with Sheridan, which is why I suppose JMS developed the Franklin/Garibaldi bond (which pales in comparison to the Bashir/O'Brien bromance). But back to Franklin...

I enjoy 1x10 Believers far more than most people, I think because I enjoy haw badly everyone comes off! I sit and wonder: what would I do? And I don't see myself doing things any differently from each character in the show. And that would be awful, because the result is that that this awesome kid will die! To wit:

Each Ambassador comes off badly, G'kar cares only for Narns or worlds that would help the Narns, Londo is willing to help for $$$$$, Delenn pulls the same non-interference shit that Lennier was forced to pull in Deathwalker (where Lennier said that since Deathwalker had not committed crimes against Minbar, the Minbari would not get involved - but it was just the embarrassment of the Windswords having given her a home all these years); and Kosh is enigmatically non-comittal.

On the other hand, the parents come off as whack-jobs; Franklin comes off as a sanctimonious prick; Ivanova is off chasing raiders who are attacking the Asimov in a B-Plot I can't believe I am even mentioning; and Michael throws up his hands and proclaims this is some fucked up shit, and they should just muddle by.

And Sinclair does muddle by. I suppose he's the only one who comes off very well in this episode. He takes his duty as Commander seriously. You can tell that every fiber of his being wants to let Franklin save the boy, but he puts aside that natural, instinctive urge, and let's the family decide what is best for the family.

So what would you do in this very tough situation? Sitting and contemplating that question is what makes watching B5 so rewarding.

 

[Reverend]

Believers is a bit unfairly maligned. I think a proportion of fans are put off by the kid but that's just unfair. In terms of acting ability, he's actually better than some of the adult guest stars in season one. As for the story itself, it showed that B5 had stones and would go places Trek wouldn't touch at the time. It's a good study on medical ethics, the value of faith and belief.

Trivia time: The alien mother (M'Ola) was played by Tricia O'Neil who would later go on to play EA President Elizabeth Levy in 'In The Beginning' (yes, that speech!) Trek fans will probably recognise her more as Captain Garrett from 'Yesterday's Enterprise'.

 

[Mal]

The Parliament of Dreams

Do you know what the last Xon said just before he died? Aaaagh!
​

Now that's what I call B5! We get Londo joking about genocide, just before he passes out drunk ("In purple, I'm stunning!").

Woah - did anyone see this? It looks like humans may have committed genocide too! Poor bigfoot...

 

[Reverend]

From memory it's been thought for a while that there was more than one species of human, Neanderthal being one of the more better known. We'll probably be finding more like that over time, like those "hobbit" once they found a while back. I don't think there's any evidence of wilful genocide though. There is a school of thought that poses than some may have bred back into our genetic line, but I'm not sure what the geneticists have to say about that theory...it would explain people with unibrows though.

With the Xon, they evolved on a separate continent to the Centauri (Centauri Prime only has a few landmasses separated by vast ocean) and they didn't come into contact until both races developed ocean crossing technology. So it was effectively like meeting an alien race and they both decided the other was an intolerable threat. The Hyach-do on the other hand developed side by side with the Hyach, just like our potential co-human species but for whatever reason they managed to hang in there as a distinct race, right up until the civilisation's space age.

 

[Mal]

1x11 Survivors

Drunk again Uncle Mike?
​

I'll just say this right off the bat: JMS has awesome taste in women! And particularly when we're talking about women surrounding Garibaldi. Here we have the super sultry (if a little pouty) Lianna. Of course my all-time favorite scifi babe is Michael's future wife Lise Hampton Edgars Garibaldi. Dodger. Even Lockley (with her raspy voice) was just a cut above! And while I don't share the enthusiasm of other fans, I won't begrudge those who adore Ivanova or Talia, or Mira, or even Lyta. JMS done got 'em bitches down!

Lianna Kenner is on the station ahead of a visit by Earth President Luis Santiago. Well it's good he visits now as he'll be dead by year end. We catch the first glimpse of the B5-metro, made famous when Sheridan jumps out of it in Season 2's finale. We see Earth Force One, made famous when it explodes in Season 1's finale. Wow, watching the show after you know every detail of the universe is awesome!

Do any of you have an addiction? Alcohol? Drugs? Coffee? Cigarettes? Porn? TV? The internet? There is a such a wonderful feeling when you just descend back into your poison of choice; when the whole world melts away and everything everyone says is so damn important and so damn urgent, just kind of falls to the wayside. There is a great article on drinking alone that I highly recommend to any of you who enjoy drinking as much as Michael:

Drinking alone, on the other hand, is a much more pure and forthright form of imbibing, and I say that because it focuses entirely on the simple act of putting alcohol into your bloodstream. It tosses aside all the half-hearted pretensions about merely using alcohol as a social tool. It gets down to what drinking is all about: getting loaded, and by doing that, getting down to the inner you. The inner joy, the inner madness, the subconscious you, the real you.
​

Testify!

That said, Michael's drinking may not effect many people now, but by Season 5 the man is in a position of some serious responsibility, and people die because of his problem (including his old friend Tafiq). But at this point in the story, he simply refuses to address all the shit that's falling apart around him, and withdraws to that bliss of solitude at the bottom of a bottle. And everything still pretty much works out in the end: he gets by with a little help from his friends (or rather his friend - singular - Jeff). If you don't have powerful & rock-solid friends like Jeff, though, I would not recommend turning to an addiction when faced with forces beyond your control.

Continuity Watch: Michael buys a hat from his drinking buddy and successfully evades security. In Hunter, Prey a hat is all the disguise Garibaldi needs!

Sadly, we never seen Lianna again. Question: does she die in Chysalis?

 

[Tulin]

Believers is a bit unfairly maligned. I think a proportion of fans are put off by the kid but that's just unfair.

And of course there's JMS' famous, "No cute kids or funny robots". So each time we show a kid, we kill them trope.

AWESOME!!!!!!

 

[Warped9]

Partly because of reading this thread I sat down to go through Season One again. I've just finished watching "Babylon Squared," but I won't spill any beans. Watching S1 again I'm geared up to keep going through the successive seasons.

I will say that I don't buy into all the griping directed Michael O'hare's way over his portrayal of Sinclair. I rather like the character. Perhaps part of that is knowing what will become of him.

And, yes, knowing how all the pieces fit together ahead of time gives you a whole new perspective rewatching the episodes.

 

[Reverend]

Sadly, we never seen Lianna again. Question: does she die in Chysalis?

Technically, she is "seen" again in one of the comic books, though it's just Garibaldi on Mars having a similar drunken flashback as he did in this episode.

It's entierly possible Lianna survived the bombing as we in this episode, she doesn't necessarily have to travel with the President on Earthforce One. When EF1 was at Station Io she could have been at his next stop (Proxima?) preparing security arrangements for his scheduled visit.

For the sake or argument, if she had been aboard or at least if Garibaldi had reason to think she might be then you'd think he'd have a much more severe reaction to the news in 'Revelations'. Odds are pretty good she was still kicking, up until that point. What happened to her afterwards is anyone's guess but it's fair to assume Clark had her replaced and possibly posted somewhere VERY far away...maybe even the same black hole of a posting Takashima got sent off to.

Personally I'd like to think she ended up with the resistance. The death of Santiago and the very high probability that she wasn't Earth born would certainly help push her into a disillusionment with Earthgov.

 

[David cgc]

While we're on the subject, I'll just point out that one of the Centauri Prime novels mentioned that Lou Welch was tapped for President Clark's security detail, and that's why he vanished in the middle of season 2.

Hm. Did Welch and Kremmer meet during this episode? Maybe she recommended him.

 

[Mal]

It's entierly possible Lianna survived the bombing as we in this episode, she doesn't necessarily have to travel with the President on Earthforce One.

that is certainly my hope.

Personally I'd like to think she ended up with the resistance. The death of Santiago and the very high probability that she wasn't Earth born would certainly help push her into a disillusionment with Earthgov.

a good point; i never thought of where she would end up during the civil war. i think it's really unfortunately we never saw her again. but then, JMS was probably too focused on Lise (can anyone be too focused on Lise?!?) to risk confusing the issue with two women from Garibaldi's past.

 

[Reverend]

While we're on the subject, I'll just point out that one of the Centauri Prime novels mentioned that Lou Welch was tapped for President Clark's security detail, and that's why he vanished in the middle of season 2..

Now see, that never really made sense to me. I mean Lou wasn't even in Earthforce proper, let alone a commissioned officer. He was a copper hired by B5. It'd be like a police sergeant in some sleepy village in the Outer Hebrides transferring into MI5. Bit of a leap.
I think I read something from Fiona Avery that had him going back to Earth to be with his wife and kids, but that might pre-date the Centauri novel.

 

[David cgc]

Well, in addition to possibly making a good impression on the security detail in this episode, he was probably a vet. Hell, half the nonmilitary human characters on the show were probably In The Shit during the Minbari War.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Continuity problem:
When Sinclair goes to Delenn's quarters to thank her, she asks him if he remembers anything. He lies and says no. Then some random Minbari dude, with a shiny silver triangle on his forehead (a shadow detector?) says that if Sinclair remembers, he must be killed. WTF?!?!?! Kill a man with a Minbari soul?!?! And not just any soul; the soul of freaking Valen himself?!?! Maybe JMS hadn't quite worked out the whole no-Minbari-has-killed-another at this point. Or do you have any ideas as to what's up with this?

JMS did address this back in the day: -

"First, understand that Minbari believe in reincarnation.

Second, as noted in ItB, if the Sinclair/Valen/soul issue got
out, it would likely tear Minbari society apart. The repercussions
would be devastating on every possible level, if it came before they
could be prepared properly.

In light of that, with or without a Minbari (or Valen's) soul,
better to sacrifice Sinclair (who will be reborn anyway, and maybe next
time in a proper Minbari body) than see Minbar damaged. Remember, they
don't know about the time loop, they see it as a straight-line
progression.

jms"
​

That was more of an after-the-fact rationalization (while not unsound).

Going back even further, JMS simply hadn't conceived of the Valen part of the storyline yet.

I'm referring to 1) the "original arc" that JMS posted in his official scriptbooks which has been summarized here and elsewhere... S1 is almost exactly what we saw on screen, but diverges later on with Sinclair as the main character. These early episodes were likely written with that arc in mind.

In that arc, if i recall, Sinclair was part of a prophecy that was interpreted differently by the Warrior caste and the Religious caste. Religious cast thought he would be the savior of the Minbari race, while Warrior thought he would lead them to destruction (?? I think. his eventual child may or may not have been involved in this prophecy as well, my memory's a little vague). It also perfectly explains why some Minbari would want to kill him.

2) There is also an early JMS post which he basically describes one day, looking at Sinclair, then looking at the Minbari, and realizing how many shared traits they had, and essentially deciding on the Valen twist (though he doesn't refer to it as such as the post was long long before War without End)