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I don't really understand "cultural appropriation"

Is 2017's Ghost in the Shell cultural appropration?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • No

    Votes: 16 72.7%

  • Total voters
    22

INACTIVEUSS Einstein

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I'm mixed race British and Asian, and I have been confused by some of the recent controversies in cinema and other arts, over 'cultural appropriation'. One of the sci-fi news blogs I read regularly blasts things for this and displays outrage (although io9 is hyperbole central) - Ghost in the Shell met with a considerable degree of ridicule - but the Japanese anime shows that I love freely appropriate elements of European fantasy, among other things, and I have never encountered a person who saw this as a negative thing - I certainly don't. This thread is both a serious question - I ask people to provide their understanding of the term - but also I offer a perspective on why I feel Ghost in the Shell is not insensitive.

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When I look at the definition of cultural appropriation, it seems to be aimed at protecting cultures from colonialism, which is a worthy intention. But all cultures have always freely appropriated new ideas, arts, cuisine, etc, from others. Additionally, they have always adapted drama via whoever was available - Shakespeare is performed by Japanese actors in Japan, despite being set in Elizabethan England. Growing up I had the simplistic view that colonialism was wrong because it involved one ethnicity ruling a foreign one, but actually, why would the color of a person's skin matter, when colonial conquerors often simply replaced earlier equally as oppressive ones? It's not that colonialism was bad because it was white, it's bad because it was undemocratic, exploitative and violent - it's whiteness was incidental, since Manchus and Mughals were often just as avaricious and exploitative as Portuguese and French, as far as I can tell.

One of my interests is history, and specific favorite areas that I read more on, are European, South Asian and East Asian history. It may surprise some people that the chili pepper did not arrive in India, until the Portuguese brought it from the New World after Columbus's voyage in the 1490s - yet the hot curry is seen as a quintessential symbol of Indian culture (likewise the tomato arrived from the new world and wasn't present in Italian cuisine). The Buddha is usually depicted as an East Asian in East Asia, or rather just a non-specific general appearance, rather than appearing Indian/Nepali, just as Christ's appearance differs depending on geography All mythological beings are adapted to the culture they are in - the ancient Ethiopian church depicts Jesus as an Ethiopian. Things we think of as European, Middle Eastern, Indian or Chinese are often from one or more of the others, although often perfected into a new form in the adoptive culture, that becomes 'native' because it is so integral. An idea isn't owned by a culture - coffee isn't 'Islamic' because it happened to be cultivated in the Middle East.

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Is Scarlett Johansen playing The Major in Ghost in the Shell really a big deal, when it is after all an authorized western adaptation, of a work inspired by both European and Japanese philosophers, incorporating themes in which the consciousness is individual but universal, in which a future Japan is very multiracial? I would hate to live in a world in which a person couldn't feel universal ownership of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle because they were not Greek, or Confucious, Laozi and Mohzi because they were not Chinese. Yet isn't that at the heart of say ISIS's extremism, or the KKK's - a refusal to admit any good comes out of anything but their parochial sense of identity?

The Tibetan Epic of King Gesar is thought to be a corruption of legends surrounding 'King' Julius Caesar (Gesar being cognate with German Kaiser, Russian Tsar, Arabic Qaysar, etc), just as the Middle East has many legends surrounding Iskander/Sikander aka Alexander the Great, and the Buddha was accidentally canonized in Europe as a Catholic saint due to the tale of Barlaam and Josephat. More recently, Levi Jeans, a type of 'ethnic dress' specific to Americans, has been appropriated by us lot in the Old World. Gandhi corresponded with Tolstoy, Dr King was influenced by Gandhi. The Rolling Stones and Beatles owe their roots to black music, brown music, and white folk music. Shopenhauer and others were influenced by Asian thought. At what point does something become cultural appropriation? Many of these things took place without authorization or context, yet are beautiful exchanges. Avatar the Last Airbender is a fantastic series - some of the people who worked on it are American Asians - are American Asians forbidden from appropriating elements of mainland Asian culture, since they have been living on another continent with different social ideas?

When I was younger I had a sense that sometimes people used and combined elements of Asian culture without due reverence for the origin or meaning - but the more I read the more I find myself perfectly okay with cultural borrowings - there is no magic line in the middle of the Ural mountains separating Asia and Europe, or in Sinai separating Asia and Africa. Furthermore, reason and science are the universal levelers that can be understood and used by people of any background to understand our shared natural universe.

“Taking intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts from someone else's culture without permission. This can include unauthorized use of another culture's dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols, etc."

When a Canadian university bans yoga because it's cultural appropriation, even though a fair number of yogic philosophers would argue it's a universalistic practice, who are they appealing to as their source of authorization? I certainly don't feel outraged that many forms of yoga practiced by hundreds of millions of westerners are devoid of their original philosophy; its a wonderful thing. Or when mindfulness is used by scientists devoid of any metaphysical assumptions, as a treatment for anxiety. I feel as the Buddha "take whatever parts of my teaching you want, and discard what doesn't work for you".

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This is quite separate from the issue of discriminatory casting in cinema and TV - see this video by Chloe Bennet, formerly known as Chloe Wang from Agents of SHIELD for an idea of the issues Asians face in Hollywood. If one was to argue that Ghost in the Shell suffered from a Hollywood that does not believe an Asian female lead can be an appealing choice for American audiences, I can certainly agree that something should be done about that - but the message I take from that separate problem isn't that it's wrong to cast Johanssen - but rather that African, Asian and European actors should have been considered equally for the roll, assuming they were not.

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I am really glad that Star Trek: Discovery has two amazing Asian woman - Rekha Sharma and Michelle Yeoh in prominent positions, as Security Chief of the USS Discovery and Captain of the USS Shenzhou. It's awesome to see the diversity of humanity and alien life represented working in unison in the Federation, without special comment or novelty, as just a fact of life. For me Star Trek always had it right - ethnicity simply should not matter in future, because it is a social construct, and enlightenment humanism entails that we do away with things that don't serve a rational purpose, but only distract us from collective peace, prosperity and our individual rights - paying undue reverence to people's prejudices and religious dogmas is not the answer, in my opinion, but enfranchisement of different people through TV, film and games is great.

If you feel that I am missing the point of the term I would be very interested to hear another perspective.
 
Not a whole lot I'd take issue with here except this:

For me Star Trek always had it right - ethnicity simply should not matter in future, because it is a social construct, and enlightenment humanism entails that we do away with things that don't serve a rational purpose, but only distract us from collective peace, prosperity and our individual rights - paying undue reverence to people's prejudices and religious dogmas is not the answer, in my opinion, but enfranchisement of different people through TV, film and games is great.

"Social constructs" have real effects, which is why they "matter." You may believe that they shouldn't but that's essentially the same as saying "your culture shouldn't exist in any meaningful way."

That shouldn't extend as far as defending prejudice and religious dogma, though.

There are no hard and fast rules about cultural appropriation. Just show sensitivity when borrowing elements from other cultures, and if you can't do so, probably best to leave them out altogether. Some people may overreact and go too far with it, but what's really the worst outcome of that? Somebody doesn't use some element they wanted to, or some class that offers a dumbed-down ripoff of another culture's beliefs gets canceled? I find it hard to get too worked up about that in the face of what's going on in general these days.
 
A friend of mine (whose parents came to the US from a former colony) described it something like this:

"White men already took our best land, resources, and wealth; they stole centuries from us and forced their culture, religion, morals and standard of beauty upon us. The fact that we maintained our culture at all was resented and often punished, so if they come for that same culture now in the interest of novelty and little else, they can go fuck themselves."

Can't say I disagree with the sentiment, but like all things there is a spectrum of intent and some people are going to be more sensitive than others no matter that intent. You can respect that without having to avoid anything that hints at appropriation. I have a Mesoamerican-inspired tattoo. I am not Mesoamerican. I've been called out on that by people with a claim to that lineage and it is perfectly reasonable for them to do so. It is also perfectly reasonable for me to not care that they're offended or have to apologize for something that has absolutely zero effect on someone who is a millennia separated from the culture that created the imagery I borrowed inspiration from.
 
I guess some people feel their culture is exploited by others without due respect from where the cultural items came from. E.G Back in the day black music was sanitised by a white music industry in the form of Elvis Presley, did anyone at the time tell the public that 'Hound dog' was a song first performed by a black entertainer? I bet they did not. I am not against what is called 'cultural appropriation', since I do not believe in anyone being self appointed cultural police. Another weird example, if white folks should not wear dreads or corn rows (as some might argue) then black folks should not wear pony tails or have their hair artificially straight. See how stupid it can get?
Although the greatest cultural appropriation trick ever performed was for Europeans to convince others via pictures and dogma that Jesus, the Jewish Palestinian of Nazareth in first century Rome was a Caucasian.
 
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I'm not sure I fully understand it either because everyone steals from everyone else or is inspired by all sorts of things that doesn't fit with their culture. I would even say it's good thing that people see value in other culture's.

The biggest issue I have was things I heard about that went on the 50's were you would have a black singer but they would pretend a white guy song the song not to mention I think tons of artist were screwed over big time when it came to paying them,especially those of color their fair share of the profits.
Also I never been a big fan of rewriting history like how the Americans broke the engima code in that submarine movie instead of the British or how movies that feature people who we know are racist are shown to not be racist like Tom Hanks version of Walt Disney or the guy from "A Beautiful Mind."
As for white washing I get bothered when it is done to characters based on real people but care less if people want to change things with a fictional character. Whether it's a black James Bond or a white female character like Tilda Swinton in "Doctor Strange" it's all the same to me. I would have a problem with something like Jerry Lewis playing a asian guy in "Breakfast at Tiffany's" but even with this I think their is some leeway. Does anyone really care if Rick Grimes is played by a Britsh guy or how about something even more controversial like having a British person playing Martin Luther King in "Selma." I didn't mind that but if you had George Clooney play Martin Luther KIng it would be offensive even though in theory you could say Clooney has more of a connection to what Martin Luther King was about since they were both Americans and would in theory have a more detailed perspective on American racism.

Jason
 
The problem that I see with trying to protect a culture from appropriation is that ownership is problematic as a concept. I don't particularly look Asian, like people in the YouTube video with Chloe Bennet were saying they had no idea she was of mixed heritage. I could pass as white if I wanted to, although I never have felt the need. In a few generations, its possible that descendants of neither myself or Chloe would be considered as anything other than a part of the majoritarian ethnicity - American or British. You could conceivably have the ludicrous situation where I get a tattoo of Ganesha emblazoned across my back or something and someone not knowing my ethnicity calls it out as cultural appropriation - better not to have the concept at all then, in my view, if it actually potentially promotes a new racism. All human populations are 'mixed', if you go back far enough - Britain having paleolithic, Celtic, Roman (including Italian, Gaulish, Sarmatian, North African, East Asian), Saxon, Irish, Norman, French, Indian, Chinese and African influence over the last 2500 years - many white North Americans being mestizo and simply not knowing, because the Amerindian or Black ancestry is concealed by a couple of generations and people not telling their descendants. Even if you take cultural heritage to be some kind of thing that exists only within living memory, its a nebulous concept. I guess what I am arguing is that pan-human universalism is logical, and non-universal forms of identity are inherently detrimental, which is my feeling irrelevant of how it does or does not argue their culture is meaningful. For me something like Star Wars, with all it's borrowings, represents an ideal piece of global entertainment - Duel of the Fates for example is an ancient Welsh poem (Battle of the Trees), sung in ancient Sanskrit, by a Latin choir - it, like it's film, evokes mono-myth themes that can be understood by all and exclude none. Star Trek is another ideal - simply showing all humans working together toward joint values, without any overt cultural underpinnings.

@Robert Maxwell - Agreed on the sensitivity; although I'm honestly not sure what form sensitivity should take - for example, how far this sensitivity should preclude criticism, as humor or mockery can be free expression - or how far it should preclude fads and fashion, as art does not always have to be reverent and solemnly employed. Where things get a little iffy is what constitutes sensitivity, and who's authority is this determined by? Let's say a western TV show appropriates Chinese ideas from Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism or the martial arts connected to them (i.e. like Avatar the Last Airbender), and creates an uncritical representation of these ideas - a mainlander influenced by critical historical thought may consider this to be insensetive if they think that there is some cause to present criticism of the social systems they were nominally associated with - i.e. regimes that consented to foot binding, gender inequality or exploited peasants - then the sensitivity becomes uncritical and idealized, or even if the writer argues that they are presenting a pure form of the ideas, it is being removed from the context of how this may not have ever been the case in real history. I happen to think it's fine, sensitive, and that such a person would be wrong to resent art, and I love Avatar for example, but I can imagine the situation in theory - so I don't think such a person should be allowed to set up an "appeal to authority" fallacy of having more claim than anyone else to the truth, when it's clearly contentious, and capable of being understood by anyone. I also think that it's positive sum game - cultural borrowing may be actively good for peace, although I have no proof of that - but say if people do adopt an oppressed minority's practice into the mainstream, won't this bridge a cultural gap? That's why I just would rather not have a self appointed cultural police, launching attacks from some Gizmodo blog, or even the concept, at all. In terms of freedom of the arts; I don't want people to self-censor either.

@Nyotarules - I agree. I do remember seeing a documentary in which they showed a 60s TV recording of the Rolling Stones openly promoting the black origins of their music on a British TV show - they invited one of their inspirations from the American South to the UK to perform on TV and insisted that he take the center stage during their set. But Britain was a different place to America at the time, and it wouldn't have been as easy in the states - possibly why Jimi Hendrix came to London.
 
^Thanks for the above, sounds like something the Rolling Stones would do, since they had a 'rebellious' streak unlike the early 'saintly' Beatles, did they ever acknowledge the roots of their music?
BTW Britain was only slightly different from the USA back then, my parents and grandparents were not welcomed here with open arms. 'No dogs, No Irish and No coloreds', were common signs around shops and places to live.
The English like to believe they were less racist than others, well calling yourself less racist makes as much sense as calling yourself less pregnant lol
 
For anyone who just doesn't understand the concept, this explains it pretty well.
Is there such a thing as gendar appropriation considering we live in male dominated world for millennia? Are drag queens/transvestites gender appropriating, should they keep away from sequined gowns?
Is the idea of 'cultural appropriation' limiting freedom of expression and so facist?
 
@Nyotarules - Yeah, there was definitely racism here around the time, such as the deportation of lascar sailors from Liverpool, anti-Irish and anti-Black discrimination, the National Front, etc. The way I wrote it does sound like I'm trying to score points on America - not my intention; we didn't have apartheid or segregated buses, but the problem itself was/is just as pressing.

I'm in favor of teaching a sort of "world curriculum" in schools these days - if 800 languages are spoken in London and New York, perhaps we need to start teaching about human history, something like Yuval Noah Harrari's Sapiens, or The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. One thing I fear a bit, is that by say, teaching about the Atlantic Slave Trade and Holocaust, but not about say the Arab Slave Trade, Indian Caste System, Chinese Ethnic Cleansing of the Hmong, it will lead some pupils to have a false sense of cultural innocence, and some to have an exaggerated sense of cultural guilt. The better thing to do might be to teach the broad truisms of human history, and then cite specific and painful examples.
 
I am in the teach all of it school of thought, sadly not many ethnic groups have a monopoly of cruelty to its fellow human. It is a case of the results of the Atlantic slave trade, colonialism, the Holocaust, caste system of India are still part of our society hence they hurt more, compared to talking about the Roman empire and its imperial ways.
My impression is the Earth of Star Trek universe lanced all these boils, which is the only reason humanity seems to have matured and grown up and knows how to treat each other with respect. (I suppose having a WW3 where you almost wipe yourself out of existence, plus First contact, knowing there are aliens out there helped as well lol)
 
@Nyotarules - I agree - I think Star Trek's idea is best exemplified by the Vulcans - they were passionate, violent, probably mired in identity politics, but reached a point where the logic of adhering to those concepts was going to destroy them - so they elected to renounce them. If Steven Pinker's book can be believed, we are also on our way to the same logical conclusions, hence the flowering in rights for all races, genders and sexual orientations, and the end of war's legitimacy; the process requires that logic and individual rights be placed on a higher pedestal than traditions, and the logic of violence be understood so that peace can be properly attained. It sounds like what Surak of Vulcan would have written.

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A memorable part involved an account of a European prince asking two Jesuits whether they thought torture was just, then taking them to a dungeon, where a prisoner under duress was made to confess that he/she had seen these complete strangers in cohorts with the Devil just last weekend - the result being that more and more people reading these accounts around Europe, placed themselves in the shoes of the victim emphasizing with them, rejecting torture henceforth out of disgust and fear that such injustice would come back to hurt them - the clergy and literati eventually entirely rejected the practices. Others such as the practice of honor duels were mocked out of existence through derision and parody. Pinker's argument was that the empiricism of the enlightenment, combined with a humanist respect for individual life, was the greatest force for the end of violence and discrimination in history. I'm inclined to feel the same way; and I do believe we can lance all the boils given time.
 
Is there such a thing as gendar appropriation considering we live in male dominated world for millennia? Are drag queens/transvestites gender appropriating, should they keep away from sequined gowns?

That is an active topic of discussion in those particular communities, yes.

Is the idea of 'cultural appropriation' limiting freedom of expression and so facist?

Gee, I dunno, with all this actual fascism going around lately, I think it becomes fairly easy to tell the difference.
 
^These things tend to start small, sometimes with good intentions and seemingly harmless.

Yes, I realize a canceled yoga class might be a stone on the slippery slope to full-blown fascism.

Or maybe it's the actual fascists winning elections lately.

It can be hard to tell.
 
Fascists win elections cos some kernal of an idea appealed to average Joe. I bet building a wall between the USA and Mexico sounds harmless.
No one took the little German painter seriously, he even went to jail. As for the Italian guy he was considered a joke.
 
Cultural appreciation was certainly an issue I struggled with. As lefty liberal as I am, the issue seemed to be almost at odds with the spread of, and acceptance of, diversity which I think is essential to a long term solution to race thinking, imperialism, and 'othering'. Surely it was a positive thing that the WASP community were eating foods, experiencing customs and wearing clothes which would give them a taste of other cultures, expose them to other worldviews and ways of living, and give them an opportunity to learn?

What has dawned on me is that that isn't what the WASPs are doing when they're called out for 'appropriating culture'. Nobody (no-one sensible, there are always those who take a movement too far) is criticising people for travel, experience, and enjoyment of other cultures, nor even assimilating yourself into aspects of them by, for example, learning to cook Chinese food, or taking up martial arts. What is criticised is when you take ownership of a piece of someone else's culture, incorporate it into yours (rather than the other way around), and act for all the world as though it was yours all along, while those who you have taken it from are still othered and excluded, often in part because of the very thing you have appropriated. When that happens, there's no gain for diversity, acceptance, or fraternity between cultures. Nobody has learned anything. All that has happened is that another concept of someone else's world has been stolen and made part of the culture of those who already had dominance and power.
 
@cultcross - Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I think perhaps some things that have been called cultural appropriation in the media in the last few years were not then, and may have been exaggerated for clickbait. For example a recent article calling Iron Fist cultural appropriation - as far as I know they aren't really other-ing a community or taking ownership - although I'm not really familiar with the comics and it's possible they were full of exclusionary views of Asians.
 
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