Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters?

[TRON JA307020]

It seems that Stan Lee is getting all the credit for the Marvel Comic characters that have populated the successful Disney Marvel comic movies at the detriment of Jack Kirby. While I love Stan Lee he doesn't seem to concerned with mentioning Kirby very much when he is interviewed. In these last few years Stan Lee has morphed from a figure well known to comic book fans to a celebrity now well known to the general population since the success of the first Spidey films and now even more so since the success of the Disney Marvel films. The general population thinks that Stan came up with all these characters on his own and was a one man creative machine when really Kirby had just as much to do with it. Yeah kirbys name is given on the movies as a created by credit but tptb seem to be basically sweeping him under the rug when it comes time to promoting the movies. Even when Stan is asked questions in interviews the interviewers almost always ask him how HE created the characters and so forth without ever mentioning Kirby. I think its a great injustice and even more sad that Stan is getting rich while Kirbys surviving family gets nothing. Friends of mine for instance that never read the comics all love Stan and are amazed how many characters he created including Captain America. I remind them that Kirby created cap and that he co created many of the characters they think Stan created alone. The response I usually get is "Whos Jack Kirby". Anyone else find that kind of sad that Kirby has been largely ignored?


p.s. I know hes dead but I believe he should be just as celebrated as Stan. If anything just for the respect of the amazing work he did.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Stan gets the credit because he is willing to play ball with Marvel and later the Studios and they find it convenient to pimp him out occasionally as an endorsement of sorts. Not so with the likes of Ditko or Kirby. Of course it also doesn't help Kirby is dead.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Friends of mine for instance that never read the comics all love Stan and are amazed how many characters he created including Captain America. I remind them that Kirby created cap and that he co created many of the characters they think Stan created alone.

Cap was created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. IIRC, Simon might be the primary creator.

Stan has been actively been promoting Marvel for decades. He is the face of Marvel Comics. He's developed a public persona, much like Shatner has. So it's not surprising people know about him. Not sure about down playing Kirby ( or Ditko) In the past he's usually been up front about his artistic collaborators contributions.

Stan got rich because he made some good decisions and played ball with Marvel and stuck with Marvel.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I think that Stan gets too much heat for self-promotion. So long as he doesn't actively deny the role of his artistic collaborators, it's never been his job to actively promote them, either (or at least, it hasn't been since he was actively promoting the entire Marvel Bullpen in the 60s/early 70s).

It's nice just to see Stan get the recognition that he deserves for his part.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I think that Stan gets too much heat for self-promotion. So long as he doesn't actively deny the role of his artistic collaborators, it's never been his job to actively promote them, either (or at least, it hasn't been since he was actively promoting the entire Marvel Bullpen in the 60s/early 70s).

It's nice just to see Stan get the recognition that he deserves for his part.

Im no saying he doesn't deserve it because he does and I am glad hes getting it but I think Kirby was just as important as Lee and he deserves some of these accolades. It isn't Stans job to promote the other creators but out of respect he should be dong it by at least mentioning Kirby and others once in a while. In my mind Kirby was just as important to these characters as Stan was. The only difference as you mentioned is that Stan stuck around at Marvel but as the years went by he created less and less and became more of a mouthpiece for Marvel.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Well, if we're talking credit in the legal sense, Kirby has been given onscreen creator credit in the Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and Avengers movies, as well as Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter, as well as various other non-MCU productions. He's also been given a character creator credit in the DC productions where his Fourth World characters have been used. So his estate is getting paid for the use of his characters. Which is probably more than can be said for all the other creators who just get "Special Thanks" credits at the end of Marvel movies and shows.

Here's a nicely two-sided article on the question of Stan Lee's legacy by ComicsAlliance's Chris Sims, who's an enormous Kirby fan and thus has no reason to be biased in Lee's favor, but who still argues that a lot of the harsher criticisms are unjustified (although some of them are justified). It points out that Lee was one of the first comics creators to insist on giving credit to all the contributors on a comic, at a time when most companies still kept their creators anonymous. It's not that Lee has actively tried to deny his colleagues' contributions, the way Bob Kane stole credit for creating Batman and actively prevented Bill Finger from ever being rightfully credited; it's just that he's the biggest personality and the one the media focus on -- and he's still alive and active, while Kirby is no longer with us and Ditko has no interest in talking about his Marvel work. And the media have a way of imposing their own bias on things. They focus on the flashiest, shiniest objects, and Lee is the flashiest thing in comics this side of Dazzler. Lee is willing to acknowledge his collaborators, but that's not what the reporters want to hear, because it doesn't fit their dumbed-down, celebrity-centric narrative. They want him to talk about his own contributions, and he's glad to do that, because he's Stan Lee. And because he's a man in his 90s, so naturally he wants to relive his glory days.

 

[Marsden]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

The general population thinks....

See, this is where you lose me. You have something of a point about Stan the Man is not the only creator, but you're too worried about what "the population" thinks. Are you running for an office?

I think one of the things that makes Stan so recognizable is his is alive. I don't even know what Kirby looks like but I've known what Stan looks like for about 35 years. It wasn't Jack's face on top of Stan's Soapbox. And Stan didn't leave to go work for Dem Comics. That doesn't diminish his contributions but it does help him to be "the face of Marvel".

 

[Mudd]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Lee's great accomplishment of recent decades has been outliving his detractors.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Well, if we're talking credit in the legal sense, Kirby has been given onscreen creator credit in the Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and Avengers movies, as well as Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter, as well as various other non-MCU productions. He's also been given a character creator credit in the DC productions where his Fourth World characters have been used. So his estate is getting paid for the use of his characters. Which is probably more than can be said for all the other creators who just get "Special Thanks" credits at the end of Marvel movies and shows.

Here's a nicely two-sided article on the question of Stan Lee's legacy by ComicsAlliance's Chris Sims, who's an enormous Kirby fan and thus has no reason to be biased in Lee's favor, but who still argues that a lot of the harsher criticisms are unjustified (although some of them are justified). It points out that Lee was one of the first comics creators to insist on giving credit to all the contributors on a comic, at a time when most companies still kept their creators anonymous. It's not that Lee has actively tried to deny his colleagues' contributions, the way Bob Kane stole credit for creating Batman and actively prevented Bill Finger from ever being rightfully credited; it's just that he's the biggest personality and the one the media focus on -- and he's still alive and active, while Kirby is no longer with us and Ditko has no interest in talking about his Marvel work. And the media have a way of imposing their own bias on things. They focus on the flashiest, shiniest objects, and Lee is the flashiest thing in comics this side of Dazzler. Lee is willing to acknowledge his collaborators, but that's not what the reporters want to hear, because it doesn't fit their dumbed-down, celebrity-centric narrative. They want him to talk about his own contributions, and he's glad to do that, because he's Stan Lee. And because he's a man in his 90s, so naturally he wants to relive his glory days.

'

I did mention in my first post that Kirby is given credit in the films. Im talking about public perception and Stan. Its well known that Stan and Jack didn't get along in the last years of their collaborations. The thing that bothers me is that as a professional courtesy he should mention his long time partner and give a bit more public spotlight to Kirbys name. But your are right reporters like dumbed down narratives. Unfortunately what is happening is that Stan is so well known and popular now that even after he is gone he will still be getting all of the attention and credit and Kirby will get none or very little.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Like I said, I don't think Lee has been trying to hide or deny Kirby's contributions. If it weren't for his habit of crediting all the writers, artists, colorists, letterers, etc. of the Marvel books he edited and published, we might not even know Kirby's name as well as we do. But the media narrative focuses on Lee, and reporters tend to ignore things that don't fit their narratives.

Anyway, it seems to me that there's abundant recognition and appreciation of Kirby among comics fans and creators. Countless creators fill their work with Kirby homages or draw on his style. Bruce Timm in particular has always been heavily influenced by Kirby and has made no effort to hide it. There was an entire episode of the 2003 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series that was one big Kirby tribute. As long as the fans and creators appreciate Kirby, does it really matter what the general public thinks? What matters more, whether Kirby's name is trending on social media, or whether his work continues to inspire writers and artists?

When Stan Lee is finally gone (as hard as that is to imagine), we'll remember him as much for his personality and public hucksterism and movie cameos as we will for his writing. But Jack Kirby will be remembered almost exclusively for his art and his creations. If you ask me, that's probably a better legacy, even if it isn't as widely recognized. Celebrity does not equal worth.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Like I said, I don't think Lee has been trying to hide or deny Kirby's contributions. If it weren't for his habit of crediting all the writers, artists, colorists, letterers, etc. of the Marvel books he edited and published, we might not even know Kirby's name as well as we do. But the media narrative focuses on Lee, and reporters tend to ignore things that don't fit their narratives.

Anyway, it seems to me that there's abundant recognition and appreciation of Kirby among comics fans and creators. Countless creators fill their work with Kirby homages or draw on his style. Bruce Timm in particular has always been heavily influenced by Kirby and has made no effort to hide it. There was an entire episode of the 2003 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series that was one big Kirby tribute. As long as the fans and creators appreciate Kirby, does it really matter what the general public thinks? What matters more, whether Kirby's name is trending on social media, or whether his work continues to inspire writers and artists?

When Stan Lee is finally gone (as hard as that is to imagine), we'll remember him as much for his personality and public hucksterism and movie cameos as we will for his writing. But Jack Kirby will be remembered almost exclusively for his art and his creations. If you ask me, that's probably a better legacy, even if it isn't as widely recognized. Celebrity does not equal worth.

I also think of Paul McCartney and how after 50 years he still talks about Lennon and his contributions to the beatles. They fought back in the day but McCartney does talk about him a lot. I would wish Stan would do the same for Kirby. It bothers me a bit that I am not seeing that. Maybe he has and I missed those times but so far I haven't seen it.

But you're right comic fans such as myself read about Kirby as kids and knew who he was and that should continue as long as new comic fans explore the classic comics and are interested in the early creators.

Don't misunderstand I still think Stan is great.

 

[TheSeeker]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I don't have much to add on this but I thought this was some interesting reading if you have the time. It's John Romita's deposition for the Kirby Family Vs Marvel Lawsuit and is an interesting look at how Marvel worked in the early days.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

As others have said, Lee often proclaims the genius of both Ditko and Kirby, and their contributions, so I don't see the OP claim as valid.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I don't have much to add on this but I thought this was some interesting reading if you have the time. It's John Romita's deposition for the Kirby Family Vs Marvel Lawsuit and is an interesting look at how Marvel worked in the early days.

Excellent article Savage. I didn't know that Stan had John Romita Sr. change Kirbys and others art. It still bothers Romita 50 years later. Interesting.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Stan has been actively been promoting Marvel for decades. He is the face of Marvel Comics. He's developed a public persona, much like Shatner has. So it's not surprising people know about him. Not sure about down playing Kirby ( or Ditko) In the past he's usually been up front about his artistic collaborators contributions.

No, he has not. In the 70s and 80s, Kirby and Ditko spent much time in interviews complaining that Lee slapped his name all over creations/plots they developed independently, or in partnership with him. Being a promotional man is one thing, but making yourself the Grand Creator of All Marvel was pure, treacherous bull.

He was no better than Bob Kane's cutthroat mistreatment of Bill Finger in the creation of significant parts of the Batman mythos, or George Barris flat out laying claim to famous Hollywood custom cars he had little to nothing to do with.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

Stan has been actively been promoting Marvel for decades. He is the face of Marvel Comics. He's developed a public persona, much like Shatner has. So it's not surprising people know about him. Not sure about down playing Kirby ( or Ditko) In the past he's usually been up front about his artistic collaborators contributions.

No, he has not. In the 70s and 80s, Kirby and Ditko spent much time in interviews complaining that Lee slapped his name all over creations/plots they developed independently, or in partnership with him. Being a promotional man is one thing, but making yourself the Grand Creator of All Marvel was pure, treacherous bull.

He was no better than Bob Kane's cutthroat mistreatment of Bill Finger in the creation of significant parts of the Batman mythos, or George Barris flat out laying claim to famous Hollywood custom cars he had little to nothing to do with.

I have read much of the same about Kirby and Ditkos complaints. Also after reading the article Savage posted I can see that Stan didn't give a hoot about the artwork and had Romita change others work. Why not ask the original artist to change a face or other area instead of asking someone else to do it? Those kind of decisions would have pissed me off.

 

[TheSeeker]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I'd imagine time constraints prevented him from getting the original artist to do the changes.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I'd imagine time constraints prevented him from getting the original artist to do the changes.

That's possible. But it seems to have bothered Romita so I have a feeling that it wasn't done with much worry what a artist would think. Kirby was pretty much the greatest of his time and to know that his stuff was changed because a editor/writer with no art skills didn't like it is kind of crappy. I am betting Kirby didn't like it also.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I'd imagine time constraints prevented him from getting the original artist to do the changes.

That's possible. But it seems to have bothered Romita so I have a feeling that it wasn't done with much worry what a artist would think. Kirby was pretty much the greatest of his time and to know that his stuff was changed because a editor/writer with no art skills didn't like it is kind of crappy. I am betting Kirby didn't like it also.

But that's what an editor is for in any medium. They get to say what goes in the final product. If an artist or a writer doesn't like it, then they should get a job as an editor and then nobody gets to mess with their lines.
Besides, Kirby was a professional, I seriously doubt he felt minor changes were all that big of a deal. When you work as an artist for a business it's your job to do what "they" want and (excluding any special contractual clauses) if they don't like what you've done then they change whatever the hell they like.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Re: Does Stan Lee Get Too Much Of The Credit For The Marvel Characters

I'd imagine time constraints prevented him from getting the original artist to do the changes.

That's possible. But it seems to have bothered Romita so I have a feeling that it wasn't done with much worry what a artist would think. Kirby was pretty much the greatest of his time and to know that his stuff was changed because a editor/writer with no art skills didn't like it is kind of crappy. I am betting Kirby didn't like it also.

But that's what an editor is for in any medium. They get to say what goes in the final product. If an artist or a writer doesn't like it, then they should get a job as an editor and then nobody gets to mess with their lines.
Besides, Kirby was a professional, I seriously doubt he felt minor changes were all that big of a deal. When you work as an artist for a business it's your job to do what "they" want and (excluding any special contractual clauses) if they don't like what you've done then they change whatever the hell they like.

It bothered Romita. Also Kirby left twice because he felt Marvel treated him badly. Sorry but Stan was Marvel and he is likely the reason Kirby left.