So if a Captain wants a romantic partner actually living with him they need to be not under his command? Like a non Starfleet artist you install in your cabin periodically? I'd like to think there was some way around this.. doesn't this mean that married couples can serve on the same ship unless one of them is the captain? As to the evolving in that ep, I never did get how he could have evolved anything unless there was some emotional development that progressed despite his memories resetting. Like every day he wakes up and his baseline for how he feels about T'Pol has been advanced by the previous days interactions.
Really, you're waiting for Pon Farr? Huh. I might be done with him six years from now. In the meantime, I've been happily owning him for nearly 8 years. *sigh* This makes me miss persianmouse and our epic battles over Soval. Oh how much fun the reign of terror that Hello Kitty and Teletubbies brought into the mix. Yes, I can see the rest of the oldtimers cringing at the memories now. How delightful! [/end threadjack]
The "evolved" part never made sense to me either. Her feelings for him could have evolved, sure... But the relationship? What relationship? The guy wakes up every morning thinking he's still on the Enterprise fighting the Xindi, for crying out loud!
^Yep, good point. No change in the relationship as far as he's concerned...I remember the scene where she touches his shoulder very un-Vulcanly and the look on his face was rather confused and a little embarassed.
Well I am happy to allow him his mistresses.. I'm generous like that. I know who he's coming home to when it's time for the serious stuff
This frightens me a little... but I think we may have the potential of some sort of an agreement here... for the time being. Fascinating. And to make this post legit: I could never see Twilight as the basis of the potential pairing of Archer and T'Pol. Not unless it took some strange 50 First Dates kind of turn. However, I do see the deep friendship between the two in the RU and can see that there could be potential there under the right circumstances. As far as I am concerned, setting aside Trip and T'Pol's relationship, the right circumstances had yet to occur for Archer and T'Pol. I don't begrudge anyone their 'ships, though.
Yes they are HOT and yes we should have seen more of Rostov. A bit off topic I suppose, maybe it needs it's own thread " 'Ships that passed in the night " or something. Better get back on topic, What's everyone's fave A/T'P scenes? I loved the end of Shockwave Part 2 when Archer goes to her quarters to tell her they're allowed to keep going. "I think you put it over the top"
He was dark and mysterious. He looked like he wrote tortured poetry. I think he could have been the introverted genius engineer if ENT had actually needed one.
Doesn't that apply to everyone else as well? It's not like the captain is the only one who gives orders! For instance, T'Pol is Trip's superior officer. If the captain is away or incapacitated, she takes command. She has no business fraternizing with someone she gives orders to, ergo she shouldn't have had a relationship with Trip while they were both serving on the same ship. Same goes for everyone on the ship getting involved with their superior or subordinate officers. So, in short: if the captain should not get involved with anyone on the ship, then nobody on the ship should get involved with anyone else in the ship that is below or under them in the chain of command. In other words: everyone abstain from sex, or wait for the next planet to hook up with some alien! Pity for your theory that TV shows show that Starfleet has no such "anti-fraternization" rules... In TOS "Balance of Terror", the couple who were getting married were actually superior officer/subordinate officer, and nobody had a problem with that. And, as noted above, Picard did get involved with Daren and it was not against the rules; they didn't need to hide their relationship, nobody said that Picard was breaking ant rules, and ending the relationship was a personal decision.
Yeah, but there's a HUGE difference between a captain and all the other senior staff. He's like a god in his little universe that is his ship, while the XO is someone who keeps him in check etc... The captain is perceived as the "shepherd" of sorts, the ultimate father figure, while the XO plays the role of the "eldest of brothers/sisters."
That's rather silly IMO. It makes it seem like the captain is the dictator of the ship and can do whatever he/she likes, rather than just the highest in the chain of command on the ship (unless an admiral or a commodore boards the ship). Plus, any time the captain is away or incapacitated, the XO takes over as acting captain; if the XO is away or incapacitated, the next in the chain of command takes over, etc.
IIRC, the captain IS the highest authority on his ship, no matter who boards it. For example, the admiral can order the captain to take the ship somewhere, but if the captain refuses, the crew is still supposed to obey HIM, unless he's relieved of duty... And yes, the captain IS a dictator of sorts, just not the one with ABSOLUTE power.
^Good points, DevilEyes and Mach5. "Dictator" is a less than pleasant description, but ir's essentially accurate as the captain 'dictates' the actions of his crew. And yes, if the captain can't fraternize, nobody should be allowed to. And it may not be a good idea, but onscreen evidence shows it's not against Starfleet regulations so long as it doesn't interfere with professional responsibilities.
Well it sure didn't seem so in TMP or TWOK, when Admiral Kirk came on board and took command of Enterprise from its captain! Spock didn't have a problem with that, but Decker sure did, but he just had to obey orders. If an admiral can come and take command of the ship from its captain, how is the captain the highest authority on the ship? It wouldn't make sense anyway. If you're an admiral, the chain of command says the captain has to obey your orders. A dictator is by definition a ruler with absolute power. You aren't a dictator if your power is constrained by laws and regulations.
Regarding dictators...the meaning of the term has evolved over time. IIRC, in the Roman Republic, "Dictator" was a legal office, a magistrate appointed by the Senate, and held for only a short time, for use in case of emergency. A contemporary dictator (i.e., Hitler, Stalin) has extraordinary personal power that is often used to oppress or abuse his people. That sounds more like Trek captains in the MU, not the RU. The way this thread keeps wandering around, it's looking more and more like A/T'P need their own thread. But in the meantime... I really liked that scene. Wonderful subtext. The charming byplay between them, as they joke about Archer being seen entering T'Pol's quarters, and T'Pol still professing not to believe in time travel, even though they both know otherwise. Archer's sincere gratitude for what she did. To me, this is a scene that really shows how they have earned each other's trust. Other Archer/T'Pol scenes I like... "The Andorian Incident," the offer of the blanket. Sure, on the surface, it looks like simple innuendo, but I thought it was one of those "Trust me" moments between them that helped to build their partnership. "Singularity," when T'Pol singlehandedly drags Archer back to the real world and gets him to take action to save the ship. "Shadows of P'Jem," the first time (of many) when Archer fights to keep T'Pol on Enterprise, even when T'Pol isn't fighting. I love how she quietly goes along with the "extensive injuries" ploy of Phlox and Archer at the end. That spoke volumes about where she thinks she belongs. "Fusion," "The Seventh," "Stigma" -- not hugely popular episodes, but I liked them because they reveal facets of T'Pol, and demonstrate the growing trust between her and Archer, in the way he supports and defends her. And in "The Expanse," Archer doesn't have a choice but to let her go, and it's T'Pol who fights to stay on the ship. "You need me, Captain." Great stuff. "Twilight" is in a class by itself for me, because of the poignant tragedy of the setup. I don't think the "evolved" relationship has anything to do with Archer's feelings for T'Pol, but rather her feelings for him, and her knowing that it can't ever become anything lasting because of his injury. There are all sorts of other nice moments. Archer seeing T'Pol's trembling hand in "Damage," and their ready room confrontation. T'Pol's entreaty to Archer not to fight Shran in "United." The conversation on the hilltop in "The Forge" while they're waiting for the sehlat to go away. I would agree that the writers took more time and care building the Archer-T'Pol dynamic than they did with Trip and T'Pol. There was a lot of potential in Trip/T'Pol established in Season 3 that was just tossed, or sabotaged for the sake of contrived conflict, in Season 4. That was disappointing. The issue is mentioned in "Breaking the Ice," when Archer is answering questions from the students in Ireland. But in Season 4, Archer mentions that he and Hernandez stopped seeing each other because he was her superior officer, and therefore it wasn't appropriate. Maybe a senior officer has a stricter set of standards to adhere to, because of the added responsibility or visibility of his/her position. That's why I saw Archer's sleep-deprived fixation on T'Pol in "A Night in Sickbay" as not an actual conscious desire, but a result of stress, plus Phlox's suggestions. The last scene between Archer and T'Pol -- he looked pretty embarrassed to me -- seems to indicate that he would never think of pursuing T'Pol in their present circumstances. Even so, it's an intriguing peek into his subconscious, showing his fears (Porthos' death) and the loneliness of his position, at the very least. And an acknowlegement of T'Pol's femaleness, something he won't let himself dwell on in the waking world.
Exactly. There's a clear chain of command: Admiral Commodore Captain First Officer Second Officer etc Also, the Chief Medical Officer (as we've seen McCoy and Phlox threaten) can remove someone from duty. I think "dictator" are semantics. I think Star Trek couldn't make the chain of command clearer (as it's been the subject of many episodes). Nice break down. On Hopeful's comment about it's up to the higher ranking officer -- don't know. If so, it would seem that T'Pol made an error in judgment in Harbinger.
Eh, we get mixed signals from the series. "Breaking the Ice" seems to be saying that fraternization is okay, but "Home" makes a distinction between rank. Or, at least Archer does. Perhaps it's his own personal moral code he's talking about, rather than Starfleet policy. There's that talk T'Pol and Trip have at the beginning of "Rajiin," when Trip is worried about their NP sessions generating gossip. T'Pol dismisses that concern, and makes a distinction between Reed (lieutenant, lower on the pips ladder) and herself and Trip, implying that the two of them are on an equal, higher rung of the ladder. (Hard to factor in actual rank designation, since T'Pol didn't even have an official rank at the time.) She didn't seem to think they were violating any policy, and I figured she would know. So I just went with it. But really, there's so little said about the issue, it's hard to nail down. Perhaps that was done on purpose, so the writers wouldn't feel boxed in. As for "Harbinger," I am in that small minority that believes the trellium didn't make T'Pol a brainless looney tune, it just enabled her to access emotions, and she acted on them. Personally, I think a kiss would have demonstrated her feelings for Trip just as well, but I seem to recall reading that UPN was pressureing for more sexy, or something. Or the writers might have thought they needed to escalate from the "Similitude" kiss. And hey, she wept for Archer too, which I thought was quite touching.