Who prefers Archer/T'Pol?

Yes, let's look at it. Kirk yells or gets angry at Spock and McCoy regularly. Do we think any less of the relationship? No.

Completely disagree. Heroes have people who support them and help them learn and grow, yes, but T'Pol has developed incredibly in the first two seasons. We find out about her past (Joslin and V'Lar), understand she's now friends with the humans and see her start coming into her own. She's been made captain a few times and rescues the captain (Communicator, Judgment). The fact that she provides advice that Archer disagrees with and then follows (Cogenitor) shows how important she is. In other words, she's very much like Spock to Kirk. She's a trusted advisor who's earned his respect. And Archer starts turning to her as his primary advisor - yet another note that he's learning and growing thanks to her.

I will say this, if you're using a formula of what makes a hero and sidekick, let's use Joseph Campbell. The hero is the one who learns and makes mistakes, with the help of those around him. T'Pol could be given a number of roles in the Campbell/Jungian way of looking at things -- mentor, goddess, temptress, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth

You're formula is well ... I've never heard of it. Do you have any information on how you came to the conclusions you did?

Disagree. I think it's weird that people have a problem with Archer making some Freudian slip to T'Pol - accidentally because it's almost as if people are looking to get angry about something. If we were to throw blame around the Enterprise, we could also say ....
* Trip took advantage of T'Pol when she was on drugs to have relations with her
* T'Pol put the ship and crew in danger in order to do drugs to have relations with Trip
* Reed sacrificed the people aboard Enterprise to sell out to Section 31

See? I may think characters make mistakes (and certainly Archer made one when he accidentally made a couple of Freudian slips), but he had no intention of harming T'Pol. And I believe it's rather absurd to believe the the main characters would be anything other than honorable. Archer by saving T'Pol multiple times, including her reputation, has certainly been more than just a captain. At least we can say they are great friends. She cares for him. He cares for her. And it's not a relationship that is based on abuse (drugs, physical or emotional).

 

I don't recall T'Pol telling Trip that she was using Trellium.

In light of her incapacitation and obvious loss of judgment due to Trellium use, Phlox, who supposedly was sober, should have advised Trip of her problem and gave a medical order that she be put on restricted duty.

It's been a while. Who died?

 

She was a wreck but they needed her. They were in a life and death struggle to get to the Xindi weapon in time. It's no different than Archer dragging the nearly unconscious Hoshi with him in the shuttlepod against Phlox's wishes because he needed her to translate (and she was even more of a wreck).

 

Well, yes, that was why I brought it up. That is a healthy and dynamic relationship between subordinates and their superiors, especially on a non-military vessel. Give and take, followed by compromise, not blind faith.

I certainly agree that Archer grew, but that was not my point. I was focused on the character of T'Pol, who gains experience and we gain insight into her, but her development essentially stagnates. She still has little idea of her place in the universe, or herself and she is almost entirely isolated to Archer in terms of interaction.

Yes, but my focus is not on the hero, but the development of a secondary character. Quite frankly, I have no formula and I don't believe I ever offered one. I despise formulas applied to sectors beyond math and science with every fiber of my being, as they have done nothing but cripple my areas of study. Also, I hardly see Campbell applying to this situation. Despite his sudden appearance in Pop-Lit circles, his method was meant to apply only to a specific set of common motifs between cultures in their epic and creation tales, not for every story which shall ever exist.

I suppose I mentally made the comparison to what Star Trek more closely resembles than global epic literature: Early to mid 20th century sci-fi adventure and hero comics, though with a great deal more characterization, to be sure.

JiNX01 and teacake handled the specifics, so let me just say that you misinterpret me.
I am in no way angry at Archer for the Freudian slips, nor is my entire argument based on that one incident. It was meant to be a humorous moment, I took it as such and laughed. I merely used it as an example of the larger overarching issues with the representation of their dynamic (and T'Pol) by the writers. I have...issues with Archer, but they have nothing to do with his romantic relationships.

Furthermore, I did not say that somehow the rest of the crew is somehow utterly innocent, they all had their faults and that is what made them likable. Also, I never denied that there was a friendship between the two.

I promise, this was not meant to be a character bashing on my part. Simply the presentation of a different perspective.

 

Frankly, I don't recall her being all that useful under the circumstances.

 

I don't see how T'Pol was blindly following Archer at all during Season 2 - she disagreed with his position on a number of occasions and spoke up about it directly to him (Dead Stop, ANIS, The Crossing for a few examples). In First Flight she bullied herself into the mission because she realised Archer needed to talk about his friend's death. In Singularity she figures out the problem, figures out how to solve it and then cajoles (bullies again even) Archer into helping. Even in a episode like The Seventh where she is seen by a lot of viewers to be particularly weak, she at first is reluctant to trust Archer and in fact withholds a lot of info from him throughout the episode.

I just don't see how any of this proposes to show hero worship and continual deference beyond the normal Captain/XO relationship

 

Put me down for T'Pol/Trip. She and Archer have a great respect for one another, but I don't believe it goes any further than, Twilight notwithstanding. The very fact and Trip and T'Pol were constantly at odds during the first two seasons makes their pairing delightfully serendipitous. A real shame the show didn't last last long enough to further explore that relationship.

 

I really suck at being a shipper. I can pretty much convince myself of any ship. I go with Trip/T'Pol but I can see that it only takes a few different choices, or parasites (lol) to open the door for Archer and T'Pol.

I did like Archer and Erika, I thought she seemed like his kind of woman.

 

I never really bought Archer and T'Pol as a romantic couple. I could see them being friends, but never romantically involved. T'Pol had much more chemistry with Trip in that department, IMO.

But what do I know? I'm a shameless Hoshi/Reed shipper.

 

Just imagine if Archer did not have T'Pol. Who would he turn to for a different (galaxy based as opposed to earth based) perspective? Phlox had some interesting things to say but they came from the place of a doctor, not a soldier or diplomat. Otherwise, frankly, everyone else on the bridge was even less sure of themselves in the big bad galaxy than Archer was. T'Pol was an absolute boon to him, he could run his ideas by her and know he was going to hear a much wider perspective than he'd get from the others..

Reed: Respectfully sir, let's blow it up.

Trip: Sounds good Cap'n, but I'll need to stabilize the warp matrix.

Hoshi: ::freaks out:: ::nervous monologue about the translator::

Travis: Not sure if he actually speaks so.. not much use there.

 

I'll give you that.

As soon as it was apparent that Archer had failed in his mission -- whether it was because the weapon had been moved or he had been captured or killed -- she should have gotten the heck out of there. But she was too busy hiding in the ready room and weeping about Archer's fate. And yes, there is a place for personal loyalty but if she really wanted to honor Archer she would have moved heaven and Earth to protect the ship and crew so they could resume the search for the weapon which had clearly not been destroyed.

Instead she stayed right there in orbit around the moon where three dead Xindi lay among the station's ruins. Good plan.

Right. Archer leaves her in charge and her plan is to leave the ship. If something goes wrong, Trip is going to be needed in engineering, Malcolm at weapons, and Travis at the helm, so who sits in the center seat? Hoshi?

No, we don't see her giving any orders. As that point, she hardly had to. Malcolm would have had the presence to return fire. The Macos would have sprung into action. Travis would have done his best to get the ship away.
I suspect she was hanging around in case Archer came back, even tho' it was clear that whether he succeeded in destroying the weapon and survived, or failed to destroy it, he was likely to be captured or killed.

No, emotional doesn't mean incompetent. But IIRC, the trellium on the Vulcan ship fried the Vulcans' brains and it was just painted on the walls. T'Pol had been mainlining for who knows how long?

Really? She seemed pretty agitated on the bridge (when she finally emerged from the ready room) and particularly when Trip followed her to the shuttle bay and grabbed her to stop her from leaving. And I don't buy that she was that upset about a diplomatic mission to Alderaan.

Yeah, Trip told her her place was on the bridge. And it wasn't the first time he had remind her of her duty.

Yes, Surak was being Surak. But in AP, T'Pol was not being T'Pol.

I agree. By the time the Xindi attacked the ship it was too late. She didn't even have anybody at her regular station to scan for Xindi ships. Considering their proximity to the planet where the weapon was being built, T'Pol in her normal state would have taken prudent action to ensure the ship would survive to complete the mission instead of going to pieces over the captain's fate.

It's not that her command ability was fatally impaired. It's that she was destroying her brain with trellium. Yes, her emotions have always been "close to the surface," but in the absence of the trellium, she was still able to maintain enough control that Soval assigned her to join the NX-01 mission back in "Broken Bow."

Actually, I think Archer was hasty in ordering the station destroyed as soon as they found it. T'Pol told him it would be hours before the station could send an alert to the Xindi fleet. I would have waited until closer to the time it would be unavoidable.

No, she was right to give Archer time for unexpected contingencies. But as Trip noted, he and Travis found the weapon in X amount of time (and they were looking blind, whereas Archer had GPS) and that time frame had long since passed.

T'Pol needed to get out of there because whether Archer was captured or killed or just plain missed his opportunity, the Xindi would be aware that Enterprise had to be nearby. They would have come looking even if the station hadn't been destroyed.

Well, a wise captain might "cut and run" to avoid a confrontation s/he couldn't afford to lose. As it happens, thanks to the writers, serendipity put Degra where Archer could get to him and try to turn a foe into an ally.

 

Since rewatching this show, I've found both pairings to be two sides of the same arcade token. T and T could have been a lot better than it was, even though I did at one point root for A/T'P.

 

A minority of two, then. I don't fault any of the characters for what they did in AP, because it organically flowed from the story. Yes, T'Pol was emotional, but she did have a point that the Xindi had no issue with Vulcans, so she might be able to negotiate with them. Trip, looking at it from a human point of view, was right to make her stay on the ship. The argument that someone should have cut and run earlier never makes much sense to me because obviously the characters are living in the moment and don't have the perspective that the audience does. How many times have you waited an extra five, ten minutes or more for someone who's late, just in case?

Back to topic. I am adamantly NOT a shipper. I think T'Pol is an interesting enough character without worrying who's going to get into her pants. An A/T'Pol (or Archer/anyone else) relationship just strikes me as inappropriate within the confines of the mission because of his rank and position. Outside of that, post-mission, maybe, I could see a relationship developing off of their mutual respect and all they've been through together. Likewise, I can see T/T'Pol, although I was never very convinced that they were meeting on mutual ground, but again, after the mission is over.

What I liked about both friendships is the way they related to each other. (I don't buy the whole SidekickPolly argument - it's exaggerated and skewed from the starting point, and it just doesn't hold up for me.) HR eloquently expressed it earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat it. I see Archer and T'Pol as the mom and dad of the ship -- Archer takes responsibility for his crew and makes decisions (sometimes to his own detriment), and T'Pol tries to keep him focused with reason. Trip and T'Pol worked more for me when they were close friends/siblings -- the You're the only one I can tell this to vibe of "Breaking the Ice" and "The Forgotten" really stand out for me.

I see chemistry among all three of these characters -- just not romantic.

 

Again, who sits in the center chair if/when something like the Xindi attack happens?

He didn't make her stay on the ship. He tried to make her stay. She ended up staying because the ship came under attack.

I just rewatched the episode:

Five or ten minutes... Nope. They hung around for an additional 2 hours. Trip tells T'Pol it took him and Travis 25 minutes to find the weapon and they didn't know where to look.
Clearly, Archer's mission had failed and they were going to need to continue the search. As Malcolm notes, the longer they stay, the greater the risk they'll be found.
So it isn't just a case of cut and run. It's a case of staying alive to ensure the mission succeeds.

 

Trip does, as third in command, just as he did every other time both the captain and First Officer were off-ship. Her point, however, was that maybe she could avoid an attack, since the Xindi had no axe to grind with Vulcans.

Fair enough, but the point is still valid. He wasn't convinced that the Xindi could be reasoned with, so, from his perspective, she was better off staying on board.

Five or ten minutes is appropriate when waiting for a friend, or a bus. Aborting a mission? Maybe 1-2 hours makes sense. Again, the point is, the characters are living in the moment, and it's not outside the bounds of reason or storytelling that a person would stall, believing that maybe the next five minutes, or the next, might make a difference, especially if the consequence is leaving a crewmember behind. Rational? No, but certainly understandable, especially in her emotional state.

Anyway, we're not going to agree on characterization in AP, and it's off-topic anyway. Your experience tells you it doesn't make sense, and my experience tells me that it does.

 

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this board but have been following this interesting thread as I'm a fan of the show and think that the actors usually did a great job even when saddled with some pretty awful writing sometimes ('A Night in Sickbay', 'Harbinger' and 'Bound' come to mind).

I have to say I didn't think it was necessary for T'Pol to have any romantic liason with any character, whoever it may have been. Her position as an outsider who gradually becomes a trusted, loyal friend as well as sounding board for Archer was great. Equally, that Trip should come to see her as his equal and a friend with whom he could banter with at times was fine.

However, if pressed, I have to say that I believe her relationship with Archer had more depth and that they had become quite atuned to one another's moods by Season 4. Of course, there could never have been any intimate relationship between them because of rank and protocal.

For those who are fans of Archer/T'Pol, they can look enough into the subtext in a multitude of nice scenes that they share.

I also think that T'Pol and Trip's relationship could have been written and directed much better than what we were given; subtlety in writing and subtext in the scenes can be a lot weightier and have more emotion than simply giving us bare flesh and adolescent like, shallow bickering.

Finally, I do have to admit that a small (tiny) part of me smiles when I see a fan create something like this:

 

Me neither, I wonder why...

Oh wait, it's because it never actually happened!