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Your Calls: CGI Made it Better, CGI Made it Worse.

CGI made it worse. 2000s CGI and 1960s Footage don't go together. If it was all one, or all the other, that would be different.

I wasn't going to even bother to purchase the Blu-Rays for TOS unless I knew for a fact that the 1960s versions of the episodes would be available as a choice. I want that version of the show, except in HD. Just like when they re-mastered TNG to HD.
 
I always interpret the Galactic Barrier entry in WNMHGB as the same as the Neutral Zone in the Deadly Years.

To me, the Barrier (and NZ) isn't a straight line, but curves all over the place. It's possible the Enterprise entered an area where it curves inwards at it's smallest/thinnest point, and so they didn't bounce back out of it, but did in fact emerge the other side. But because they were at a thin tip, they emerged back into the galaxy.

YMMV but the original footage doesn't really suggest they reversed and bounced back out.
 
It's possible the Enterprise entered an area where it curves inwards at it's smallest/thinnest point, and so they didn't bounce back out of it, but did in fact emerge the other side.
That sounds unnecessarily convoluted. First Kirk announces "We're leaving the galaxy." During the storm he calls for "lateral power" (to the side, or turning around) and then orders, "Helmsmen, take us out of here." While scanning the Valiant's tapes, Spock talks of "out of the galaxy" and back in again. Kirk also talks of the old impulse engines not being strong enough. And the term "barrier."

There's just enough ambiguity to argue the point. But I think most viewers would see that the Enterprise got its butt kicked and was in no shape to do it again. That is, they never got "through," but had to turn back. Apparently the Kelvins learned how to do it, but lost their own ship in the process.

There is a model in plasma cosmology that describes a galaxy-wide current from core to rim and back around that sounds like Trek's "galactic barrier." The model does not specifically detail such a barrier, but a plasma "double-layer" of that scale might be a navigational hazard.
 
One of the reasons I like the original barrier fx is the idea it conveys. Seeing the ship from the outside going into or coming out of the barrier it looks like a wall or ribbon of energy. But seen on the bridge viewscreen it looks like an ovoid. It suggests it looks different depending how you’re looking at it. It could even be invisible unless viewed through imaging sensors.
 
TOS-R effects were kind of a mixed bag. Sometimes, they were OK for "updated FX done on a limited budget"; sometimes, it was more "I don't know why they did this here, but I guess someone decided they should do *something*"; too often, the FX would have been fine for an oughties show being produced on a limited budget, but they just looked out of place in 1960s Star Trek.

There are a handful of examples, though, where they really did do something which fit the tone of the original *and* improved on the original FX. I can't think of one, offhand, where they were able to consistently maintain that for an entire episode -- "Doomsday Machine" might have come closest -- but they did achieve a few moments of "Wow, OK, yeah!"

M', older than most of y'all (but not precious about it)
 
TOS-R effects were kind of a mixed bag. Sometimes, they were OK for "updated FX done on a limited budget"; sometimes, it was more "I don't know why they did this here, but I guess someone decided they should do *something*"; too often, the FX would have been fine for an oughties show being produced on a limited budget, but they just looked out of place in 1960s Star Trek.

There are a handful of examples, though, where they really did do something which fit the tone of the original *and* improved on the original FX. I can't think of one, offhand, where they were able to consistently maintain that for an entire episode -- "Doomsday Machine" might have come closest -- but they did achieve a few moments of "Wow, OK, yeah!"

M', older than most of y'all (but not precious about it)
Yeah, it's mostly mixed. But, then, I'm not watching this show (most shows) for the VFX. If I'm going, "Wow, what beautiful effects" then I'm not really engaged.
 
It was the 2000s and it was a cool novelty, and they wanted to sell DVDs. It's alright.

What is not alright is pulling the originals off.

I'm extremely happy I found a download recently
 
I finally bought TNG on Blu-Ray a few weeks ago. In the past, there was no way in Hell that I was going to pay $130 per season times seven seasons. Over $900? Forget it. But now, the entire series was on sale for $114. Considering the total number of episodes, it was less than a dollar per episode, that I was willing to pay for.

Which brought me back to thinking about buying TOS on Blu-Ray. I strongly considered purchasing the Steelbook Edition of TOS. But, as I was looking through the Amazon reviews, I found out that every time you watch the 1960s version of the episodes, and there was practical shot, there would be a pop-up telling us "You can switch the other version!" Yeah, no. If I wanted to do that, I would've put it on in the first place! So, I decided not to buy it. I still have the DVD season sets from 20 years ago.

Cutting-and-pasting an excerpt from one of the Amazon reviews for the Steelbook Edition.

Episodes can be watched with original or enhanced effects. I think that is why there isn’t a play all or auto play function which some reviews complain of. That’s a minor inconvenience at worst. Supposedly there’s an option to toggle between effects while watching an episode, but I haven’t tried it. Unfortunately, if watching with original effects, an annoying camera icon pops up when enhanced effects are available for a scene. There doesn’t seem to be an option to disable it. That is the worst thing about this set and worth a star downgrade. If anyone has figured out how to disable the “cam icon” popup, please comment.

Do the regular Blu-Ray Season Sets have that annoying toggle switch if you put on the original version?
 
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I finally bought TNG on Blu-Ray a few weeks ago. In the past, there was no way in Hell that I was going to pay $130 per season times seven seasons. Over $900? Forget it. But now, the entire series was on sale for $114. Considering the total number of episodes, it was less than a dollar per episode, that I was willing to pay for.

I felt the same about the 2002 DVD releases, whose MSRP was $120 and street price was $100 (from recollection).

But the blu-rays had more value-added material, on top of the hours upon hours of painstaking remastering. A lot of people did buy the season sets in 2012-15, which were $60~$80 depending on season at the stores (MSRP being $130, which would be shocking if it weren't for the remastering work done.) So people ultimately spent ~$500... wait a handful of years later and by then the complete series came out for under $200, and $114 now.

It didn't help that seasons 2 and 4 had those massive remastering blunders-- well, probably, individual season sales figures aren't shown and even then there's room for more supposition than patties in a cow field.

Which brought me back to thinking about buying TOS on Blu-Ray. I strongly considered purchasing the Steelbook Edition of TOS. But, as I was looking through the Amazon reviews, I found out that every time you watch the 1960s version of the episodes, and there was practical shot, there would be a pop-up telling us "You can switch the other version!" Yeah, no. If I wanted to do that, I would've put it on in the first place! So, I decided not to buy it. I still have the DVD season sets from 20 years ago.

How are they holding up? Bit-rot was theorized when DVDs came out, mostly because of how laserdisc discs were having that problem. Some recent articles and anecdotal evidence suggests it is a problem, especially depending on brand or TV series. Probably the former, since it's hard to stop the assembly line and swap out grade-A materials for grade-D equivalents.

Do the regular Blu-Ray Season Sets have that annoying toggle switch if you put on the original version?

Nope. TNG is TNG-R only. The original master edits are all on videotape. Too much detail is lost once telecined to tape via generation loss, combined with the additional fun of frame rate mismatch (going from 24 to 29.97 - which CAN be mitigated, if the DVD was authored correctly and if the special effects put in match up the interlace sequence as well). Some noise and moiré removal can help, but it's not even a patch compared opposite a scanned film negative as it'll look soft and mushy (not to mention mpeg compression artifacting smoothing). Never mind the selective edge enhancing called "AI", which helps - true - but telltale signs of the low-definition originals are still there. If the original and higher resolution material exists, it's far better to go to it before it decomposes due to the "vinegar syndrome" effect. That said, I've seen some game shows broadcast that had to have been treated by AI. Considering the source was murky videotape, the resolution edge enhancement and color saturation/histogram adjustments do look better than the original.
 
How are they holding up? Bit-rot was theorized when DVDs came out, mostly because of how laserdisc discs were having that problem. Some recent articles and anecdotal evidence suggests it is a problem, especially depending on brand or TV series. Probably the former, since it's hard to stop the assembly line and swap out grade-A materials for grade-D equivalents.
There are a few glitches here and there, but for the most part they still work, just like all the other DVDs I bought in the '00s.

A few years ago, a friend picked up a DVD Book Case at a yard sale for $25 filled with DVDs from several sci-fi series. They were TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, and The X-Files. All the big sci-fi shows from the '90s and early-'00s. I joked that all that was missing from this collection was Babylon 5 and Farscape! So my friend gave this DVD Case to me, and now I have all those shows as well. I don't like ENT and I'm not a Stargate fan, but I was happy to have the rest. I've played some of those DVDs, and they also work just fine.

Nope. TNG is TNG-R only. The original master edits are all on videotape. Too much detail is lost once telecined to tape via generation loss, combined with the additional fun of frame rate mismatch (going from 24 to 29.97 - which CAN be mitigated, if the DVD was authored correctly and if the special effects put in match up the interlace sequence as well). Some noise and moiré removal can help, but it's not even a patch compared opposite a scanned film negative as it'll look soft and mushy (not to mention mpeg compression artifacting smoothing). Never mind the selective edge enhancing called "AI", which helps - true - but telltale signs of the low-definition originals are still there. If the original and higher resolution material exists, it's far better to go to it before it decomposes due to the "vinegar syndrome" effect. That said, I've seen some game shows broadcast that had to have been treated by AI. Considering the source was murky videotape, the resolution edge enhancement and color saturation/histogram adjustments do look better than the original.
I was talking about the TOS Blu-Rays there, not the TNG ones. I already know about the TNG set. I already have it and have watched some of it. ;)

What I wasn't sure about was the TOS Blu-Rays, otherwise I would've bought those first instead of TNG.

I felt the same about the 2002 DVD releases, whose MSRP was $120 and street price was $100 (from recollection).

But the blu-rays had more value-added material, on top of the hours upon hours of painstaking remastering. A lot of people did buy the season sets in 2012-15, which were $60~$80 depending on season at the stores (MSRP being $130, which would be shocking if it weren't for the remastering work done.) So people ultimately spent ~$500... wait a handful of years later and by then the complete series came out for under $200, and $114 now.

It didn't help that seasons 2 and 4 had those massive remastering blunders-- well, probably, individual season sales figures aren't shown and even then there's room for more supposition than patties in a cow field.
With TOS, I already got one of the season sets as a Christmas Present in 2003. I only had to buy two others. Not a problem. I was willing to do that. Several years later, I finished the job and bought TAS.

TNG? With its seven seasons, and the amount of money I was making being a college student, meaning not a lot of money at all? Forget it. That was insane. I had some friends who did that, but I sure wasn't going to. :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
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There are a few glitches here and there, but for the most part they still work, just like all the other DVDs I bought in the '00s.

A few years ago, a friend picked up a DVD Book Case at a yard sale for $25 filled with DVDs from several sci-fi series. They were TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis, and The X-Files. All the big sci-fi shows from the '90s and early-'00s. I joked that all that was missing from this collection was Babylon 5 and Farscape! So my friend gave this DVD Case to me, and now I have all those shows as well. I don't like ENT and I'm not a Stargate fan, but I was happy to have the rest. I've played some of those DVDs, and they also work just fine.


I was talking about the TOS Blu-Rays there, not the TNG ones. I already know about the TNG set. I already have it and have watched some of it. ;)

What I wasn't sure about was the TOS Blu-Rays, otherwise I would've bought those first instead of TNG.


With TOS, I already got one of the season sets as a Christmas Present in 2003. I only had to buy two others. Not a problem. I was willing to do that. Several years later, I finished the job and bought TAS.

TNG? With its seven seasons, and the amount of money I was making being a college student, meaning not a lot of money at all? Forget it. That was insane. I had some friends who did that, but I sure wasn't going to. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Woops. Not sure how I jumped to TNG what with this being the TOS forum :-o (sorry about that!!)
 
So I agree that the TOS-R effects are a very mixed bag.

There are a few of the new shots I absolutely love, like the shot of the Botany Bay drifting away from the Enterprise underneath Kirk's "They have my ship" log entry. That was poetic and enhanced the story, IMO. And most of the digital versions of the original matte paintings looked very good. I particularly like Flint's planet in "Requiem for Methuselah" and the new look at Stratos in "The Cloud Minders."

And I like the subtler changes they made at the time, like Kyle's agonizer leaving a brief glow behind when Spock removed it from Kyle's chest in "Mirror, Mirror," or when there were some additional moons in the sky when they beamed down in "Bread and Circuses."

And then there are some changes I absolutely loathe, like:

In "The Corbomite Maneuver," they totally fuck up the scale between the Enterprise and Fesarius, where Balok's ship was positively dwarfing the Enterprise to the point it was practically a speck on the screen. They enlarged the Enterprise in the composition, thus robbing the story of that "Oh SHIT" moment from the original:


In "Wink of an Eye," they inexplicably discard the statue in the middle ground and ditch the original bold blue background, in favor of a generic grey mush.


I refuse to believe that's respecting the original creative intent. The folks who made TOS knew how colors worked in 1968. They obviously meant the background to be blue. So why overwrite their intent and make it a flat grey?

The change I find the most egregious, however, is in "Amok Time," where they cut out original footage of Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelley walking over to the ceremonial grounds just so they could insert a bad CGI landscape that made the Vulcan environment look more like what we saw in STIII. That's stupid fanboy shit. When you're cutting out footage of the original actors to insert your new effects, I think you're officially doing more harm than good.


And there are other things that consistently bug me, like how they made all planets look much more generic and Earthlike in the establishing shots. I miss the bold colors of the original version. And for some reason the creators of TOS-R were really enamored of super tight closeups of the saucer and nacelles passing by the camera, which looked like crap whenever they did it.

Basically, I hate it whenever they inserted a more modern 2000s aesthetic into the show, because it consistently throws me out of the story.
I was always a little annoyed that they treated TNG-R like the holiest of holies and didn't apply the same reasoning for the TOS-R changes, particularly the bit about "we only changed things to look like what the original TOS producers could have done with more time or money"
Yes. This is my problem with most of the TOS-R effects in a nutshell. TNG was treated as the holy writ where they were duplicating the original effects, designs, and camera angles as closely as possible, and TOS was all too often approached with the attitude of "Oh look, those poor dumb clods in the 60s didn't know what they were doing. We'll fix it!"

I think the big reason it was done that way is because folks who worked on TNG the first time around, like the Okudas, were part of the remastering process. They knew what they intended to do back in the day, and they were able to keep the new effects on an even keel. There was nobody still around in 2006 who could advocate for the original TOS creators' intent in the same way.
To me, the Gorn looked like it had compound eyes anyway, so why would it blink?
Yes. A perfect example of the limited imagination they often had with the new effects. The Gorn was a reptilian alien, so why should it blink like a human? Like Ian Malcolm says in Jurassic Park, "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should."
Tomorrow is Yesterday. The shots of the Enterprise in the sky are amazing and Christopher's jet is photorealistic.
Agreed! The new Earth shots look great, too.
The finale actually makes sense!
Well, let's not get carried away. That "We'll beam you into yourself, and you'll instantly forget everything that happened!" bit is still pretty nonsensical. But that's a story/script problem, not an effects problem. :)
It truly is a shame that they didn't still have all the bluescreen photography. Imagine the original footage composited using modern tech...would have been marvelous.
Yeah, blame Roddenberry for being so greedy and short-sighted in the 70s that he sold off original film clips of TOS to fans.
 
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All worse. The original told it's stories with its limitations just fine. As I've said a million times before, they should have exactly recreated the original FX or gone balls to the wall revamping everything. Not this halfway thing they did.
 
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