Wolf in the Fold question

[balls]

Has any novel or any other source ever described Scotty's accident that happened prior to this episode? The issue of his hatred toward women seems pretty extreme. However, his statement in STVI about "that Klingon bitch" might seem more in line to his character. I always thought that line was out of left field and wrong to be in the movie (director's cut or extended).

Also, with Rejeck being able to move from person to person, does anyone feel Kirk's solution to beem the administrator out into space was a bit rash? Or, since his body was already dead, it didn't matter?

 

[Basill]

I'm not sure about any other references to Scotty's accident, but I've always taken "Klingon bitch" as a jab at her race rather than her gender. As if she was automatically a bitch because she was Klingon. It was of course racist, and rather dismissive of her female nature, but then I suspect he wasn't thinking in terms of cordiality at the time.

But as far as beaming Redjac out into space in the form of the administrator, I was under the impression that they didn't reintegrate him back into a body but left him as sprinkle energy in space. Redjac could move from person to person but seems still affected to some degree by the physical limits of the person (or computer) that it inhabited. Of course, it was able to leap out of the prefect when Spock nerve-pinched him, and it had to flee the computer when Spock overwhelmed its function, but going back into a dead body and having to force that body to function again (a task possibly compounded after the previous computer difficulties) a simple anesthetic appears to have confused the entity long enough to take advantage of the moment. Rash or not, something was better than nothing I guess.

 

[NathanielM]

Rejack I thought was a living spirit, an entity, like Spocks Katra in the Search for Spock: It traveled using the bodies and posessing the ody of those who had done violence or evil and used fear and terror as its weapon. It would make the violent evil one kill.

 

[Timo]

One could speculate that there was lingering psychological trauma from "Wolf in the Fold", whether it be the original accident or the murder that Scotty was suspected of having committed. It is quite possible for his character to have become something of a misogyne, if he wasn't that to begin with. But if so, he appears to have been perfectly capable of working together with women during his later career - all the movies that showed him at work also paired him with a female coworker or four. No sign of undue tension there. And whatever tension there was in "Lights of Zetar" was of a nonviolent sort!

No matter, we should recognize that Scotty apparently did kill those women in "Wolf in the Fold". After all, Redjac needed somebody's physical hand for holding the knife, and the logical assumption is that it was Scotty's. That's gonna leave a mark. But Scotty has weathered worse - like being dead in "The Changeling".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Basill]

NathanielM said:
Rejack I thought was a living spirit, an entity, like Spocks Katra in the Search for Spock: It traveled using the bodies and posessing the ody of those who had done violence or evil and used fear and terror as its weapon. It would make the violent evil one kill.

Well, technically, you are an entity. But Redjac was a specific type of non-corporeal entity. "Living spirit" might be an applicable term, but it's kind of archaic. However, I suspect a Katra and Redjac, though perhaps similar in some ways, are two very distinct ideas. Redjac being non-corporeal was clearly some form of energy but it was still organized in some fictional way, in order to be considered a sentient life form. It took over corporeal beings to command there forms to do its will. But even being non-corporeal it had survival needs as it fed off the specific energy of a mind experiencing fear.

A Katra, as I have always understood it, was the culmination of experiences in a Vulcan's mind. Vulcan's are lucky enough to be able to pass this on to others via their minimal psychic abilities. And once a Katra is passed on it seems somewhat interactive, but I doubt it is capable of fully possessing another being, unless that mind is less sophisticated like say... a human's. Living spirit is far more applicable here (especially since Sarak said so)

 

[A beaker full of death]

balls said:
I always thought that line was out of left field and wrong to be in the movie (director's cut or extended).

And you were right. But then, last I checked, Spock wasn't a rapist, either. That whole movie shat on the characters.

 

[balls]

A beaker full of death said:

balls said:
I always thought that line was out of left field and wrong to be in the movie (director's cut or extended).

And you were right. But then, last I checked, Spock wasn't a rapist, either. That whole movie shat on the characters.

I would agree. TUC gets so much credit for being great. "Meyer is a genius..." I just don't see it. I get the Cold War analogy. But, the mind rape, phasers in the galley, books on the bridge, the entire bridge crew beaming down to Khitomer, the investigation of Lt. Dax. So many things that make it difficult for me to watch this movie.

 

[M'Sharak]

balls said:
TUC gets so much credit for being great.

I really could never understand why. I walked out of the theater after seeing that and I felt like I'd been short-changed. It was better than the previous one, but that's about all I'll give it.

 

[Jimmy_C]

balls said:
Has any novel or any other source ever described Scotty's accident that happened prior to this episode? The issue of his hatred toward women seems pretty extreme.

I thought McCoy and Kirk were just talking about a little in-joke there. I don't think Scotty really hates women.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Jimmy_C said:

I thought McCoy and Kirk were just talking about a little in-joke there. I don't think Scotty really hates women.

wha? Did you see the episode?

 

[McCoy]

Yeah, left field alright. I could certainly understand having some unconscious resentment towards the specific woman who caused the accident (or man, had that been the case), but to generalize that to all women? Scotty just doesn't seem the type.

But someone from the Enterprise had to be given a reason to even be a suspect in these murders, and I guess his is the name that was drawn from the hat.

 

[Shatmandu]

balls said:
Has any novel or any other source ever described Scotty's accident that happened prior to this episode?

From the first draft script:

Scotty was in the Engineering restroom, "channeling the anti-matter."

He forgot to lock the door, a female crewman walked in, and he fell off the toilet he was straddling, bonking his head on the sink.

This was filmed but ultimately censored, due to the broadcast restrictions of the day.

Joe, noted Trek historian

 

[Timo]

I could well go for the "in-joke" routine. After all, consider the dialogue that supposedly tells us Scotty now spits at XX-chromosomed coworkers:

McCoy (ogling at passing derrieres, holding a glass, talking past Kirk, with a smile tugging the corner of his mouth): "As a matter of fact, considerable psychological damage could have been caused -- for example, his total resentment toward women."
Kirk (trying to hold a deadpan, and failing): "Seems he's overcoming his resentment."
McCoy (doing something of a Spock imitation): "Of course, when he gets back to the ship, he'll hate you for making him leave Argelius, but he'll have lost total resentment toward women."

At that point, Kirk loses interest in the silly joke and proposes that the two proceed to a place where they can go "resent" some more women...

Nothing here convinces me that Scotty ever felt anything against the opposite sex. And when things get serious and there is a detailed court procedure and associated medical examination, not once is the issue brought forth that Scotty might really harbor a hatred towards women.

So I'm fully with Jimmy C here, and somewhat surprised by Beaker's reaction...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Hambone]

Timo said:

No matter, we should recognize that Scotty apparently did kill those women in "Wolf in the Fold". After all, Redjac needed somebody's physical hand for holding the knife, and the logical assumption is that it was Scotty's. That's gonna leave a mark. But Scotty has weathered worse - like being dead in "The Changeling".

Timo Saloniemi

I never was under the impression that Scotty killed anyone. The episode made it pretty clear (to my bug-addled brain) that Hengist/Redjac was the murderer, and had the Shadow-like ability to cloud people's minds. The murder weapon was placed in Scotty's hands after the killings, and he didn't know how it got there. The fact of the knife indicated that Hengist had to be the killer; if Redjac had 'invaded' Scotty's body long enough to kill, where did the knife come from? Transmutation of matter wasn't one of Redjac's abilities, as I recall; it couldn't just make the knife 'appear' in Scotty's hand.

Or am I missing the point entirely?

 

[Timo]

Well, Redjac was of course the "real murderer" every time. But he need not have been in Hengist all the time. Just long enough to allow Hengist to obstruct the investigations, perform the final of the three stabbings, and so forth.

I think Scotty indeed bodily committed the first two murders, with a knife provided him by Hengist or some other "accomplice" if needed. The first time around, Scotty could simply have found the knife lying somewhere, left by Hengist or other "accomplice"; the second time, he could have stolen it from where it lay in the room. Or Hengist could have delivered it to him to the chamber by picking the lock, but that would be a somewhat needless complication.

Sure, Redjac was able to cloud people's minds - but the total amnesia probably only related to cases where Redjac actually took over a body and used it for committing a crime. Otherwise why would Scotty have suffered such amnesia during the first two murders but not the third? I think this was because the third time around, Redjac was not in him, but in Hengist.

The conclusion of the adventure establishes that Redjac can jump back and forth between people. It would be very handy for it to normally reside in Hengist, then depart him for brief periods and use other bodies so that he could commit a murder for which the (temporarily down for the count) body of Hengist had a perfect alibi.

Scotty was the perfect body for committing the murders anyway: an outworlder whose guilt or innocence would be masked behind the inevitable political squabbling. With Scotty gone (either executed or freed to the Federation), Argelians would again feel safe, until Redjac struck again. No awkward long hunt for the murderer which Hengist would have to hinder...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[A beaker full of death]

Timo said:
I could well go for the "in-joke" routine. After all, consider the dialogue that supposedly tells us Scotty now spits at XX-chromosomed coworkers:

McCoy (ogling at passing derrieres, holding a glass, talking past Kirk, with a smile tugging the corner of his mouth): "As a matter of fact, considerable psychological damage could have been caused -- for example, his total resentment toward women."
Kirk (trying to hold a deadpan, and failing): "Seems he's overcoming his resentment."
McCoy (doing something of a Spock imitation): "Of course, when he gets back to the ship, he'll hate you for making him leave Argelius, but he'll have lost total resentment toward women."

At that point, Kirk loses interest in the silly joke and proposes that the two proceed to a place where they can go "resent" some more women...

Nothing here convinces me that Scotty ever felt anything against the opposite sex. And when things get serious and there is a detailed court procedure and associated medical examination, not once is the issue brought forth that Scotty might really harbor a hatred towards women.

So I'm fully with Jimmy C here, and somewhat surprised by Beaker's reaction...

Timo Saloniemi

McCoy's first line is not a joke. The episode has no dramatic tension whatsoever if we know Scotty didn't do it. Now, the audience knows that Scotty would never NORMALLY go around bumping off women. The solution? A whack on the head could make him go psycho (a hit movie of the same decade, btw). Deep mysterious psychological forces (coupled with said whack on the head) could drive Scotty into a murderous rage that he himself wouldn't remember.
Is it plausible? Probably not to today's audience. But it was clearly intended to be taken seriously.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Timo said:
I think Scotty indeed bodily committed the first two murders, with a knife provided him by Hengist or some other "accomplice" if needed.

No. They made a point of saying that Hengist wasn't accounted for during the murders. More to the point, a 1960s screenplay simply would not have allowed one of its regulars to be a murderer, even if he wasn't responsible for it, indeed, even if it was only his body.

 

[Michael]

A beaker full of death said:

Timo said:
I think Scotty indeed bodily committed the first two murders, with a knife provided him by Hengist or some other "accomplice" if needed.

No. They made a point of saying that Hengist wasn't accounted for during the murders. More to the point, a 1960s screenplay simply would not have allowed one of its regulars to be a murderer, even if he wasn't responsible for it, indeed, even if it was only his body.

But I was always understanding it the same way: It is through Scotty's body, that Redjac does his killing. Physically Scotty did murder those women, but not psychologically. Can it really be that I always got that wrong?

 

[A beaker full of death]

Belar said:
But I was always understanding it the same way: It is through Scotty's body, that Redjac does his killing. Physically Scotty did murder those women, but not psychologically. Can it really be that I always got that wrong?

I really think so. The writers and suits of the day simply wouldn't have allowed Scotty, even if only in body, to be a killer. And the line about Hengist not being accounted for during the murders is the final nail.

 

[Timo]

Ah, we seem to be talking somewhat past each other here. I thought in terms of how the episode spells out, you in terms of how it was intended to work.

And of course you are right. It's just that writer intention doesn't always matter nearly as much as audience impression. "Ben Hur" was supposed to be about male homosexuality, but the audience didn't get it. "Star Trek" probably wasn't, but the audience got it anyway...

This is why we still have discussions about "Turnabout Intruder", and not mere "Boy, that was sexist!"/"Yup. Uh, seen any good movies?" exchanges.

It should be remembered that those Trek fans familiar with TNG and the other spinoffs would find it a routine occurrence that a character is possessed, performs atrocities, and is forgiven when the possessing spirit is driven away. Indeed, this would be the expected plotline in murder stories! (Right after "a shapeshifting doppelgänger did it", anyway.)

Timo Saloniemi