Why would Lore want Data's emotion chip?

[Triskelion]

Lore was already capable of emotion. He told Data in Brothers that he didn't have to imagine; he knew how hard it's been, and that Data would be surprised. That Data might even be able to understand his "evil" brother.

Lore was jealous and wanted to deprive Data of his birthright - but what would motivate Lore to use the chip, and fundamentally alter his nature, and very possibly his moral alignment?

(Kudos on Spiner's acting choices here. Lore's emotions were much cooler than Data's emotional slapstick routine in First Contact, where he sounded a bit more like the Night Court hillbilly character).

Clearly Lore still had feelings for Soong; he took news of his father's terminal condition badly. Why would he then want to destroy the last wishes of his dying father?

Was it an act of pure mischief? A desire for redemption?
Faulty programming? Inconsistent writing?

What do you think?

 

[USS Triumphant]

I think Lore is just a dick.

 

[trekyourself]

It's a way for lore to feel superior. And stay that way. He had a very misguided sense of what a sibling rivalry was. He already had some baseline emotions yes, but if data put that chip in, he would have surpassed lore in complexity and humanity and I don't think lore would have been okay with that.

 

[Paradise City]

The idea of the emotion chip is that it's something Data craves, designed for Data by his old dad and now that Lore has something Data wants, he's got power over him. Also, he wants to prove a point to Soong. Lore is convinced he got a bad deal and they lavished love on Data. Keeping the chip is Lore's way of exacting revenge.

As a ruse to get the chip, Lore poses as Data but whether Lore fully assimilates the implications of actually integrating the chip into his own system, well, the subtext to that is, no, he doesn't. To paraphrase Lore's remark "I dunno what it's doing but it's doing somethiiiing!"

 

[Marsden]

I think Lore is just a dick.

I want to reply so bad, but it's going to get me in trouble.

So, because Lore is artificial, and runs on batteries, ...... I'll just quit before the Mutai Sho-Rin smacks me.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I want to reply so bad, but it's going to get me in trouble.

So, because Lore is artificial, and runs on batteries, ...... I'll just quit before the Mutai Sho-Rin smacks me.

Very well played, sir. Very well played.

 

[Kor]

If androids in Trek were like robots in Asimov's novels, that might actually be a topic for discussion.

Anyway... I, too, always wondered if Lore's preexisting emotions would be somehow augmented and made more complex with the addition of the chip, or if it did absolutely nothing for him.

Kor

 

[tharpdevenport]

Let's face it -- Lore has never been very bright, despite his self-professed intelligence.

He alligned himself with a giant space crystal (how the hell was that going to work exactly?), killed the only person that could repair him or expand him if something really went wrong, suggested beaming out a large tree and detroying it to demonstrate the Enterprise's power (anybody else cringe everytime they thing of that line?), and then made himself the leader of defected Borg drones that you know the collective would have come looking for eventually.

 

[Paradise City]

Brothers is the only good, play-it-straight episode Lore is in.

There's alot of unintended comedy in Datalore as Lore plays all innocent whilst hatchin' an evil plan. Lore teamin' up with the borg makin' Data comic book evil in that awful "Decent" two parter, dear, oh dear, what a mess that was. Those old rights Data won doesn't apply to Lore apparently as he gets dismantled and left on a shelf when he really should be getting a cushy number on a New Zealand penal colony. All that said Lore is a cool character and Spiner generally plays him well.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Data didn't get rights, now did he? I don't recall exactly. What I recall is that Starfleet considered him property (even though he was a self-enlisted officer decorated multiple times with badges of honor...) and they were going to take him apart -- essentially killing him -- to duplicate him. I recall a long speech on how history will judge them, from the JAG judge, and grating Data rights or something. Lore not being a part of Starfleet, the rights wouldn't be bestowed upon him.

 

[Paradise City]

Data didn't get rights, now did he? I don't recall exactly. What I recall is that Starfleet considered him property (even though he was a self-enlisted officer decorated multiple times with badges of honor...) and they were going to take him apart -- essentially killing him -- to duplicate him. I recall a long speech on how history will judge them, from the JAG judge, and grating Data rights or something. Lore not being a part of Starfleet, the rights wouldn't be bestowed upon him.

He did get his rights. He was granted the rights of a sovereign being (freedom to choose). Lore sharing all the same essential characteristics of Data, logically, gets those rights as well.

 

[Timo]

Only insofar as Soongian androids can be considered a species in the sense humans are. Any lawyer would see the opening to challenge that presumption, and argue that Lore is no more entitled to the rights of Data than the Exocomps, the Enterprise computer or the Salt Vampire are, until specifically proven otherwise.

OTOH, even among us, some get fewer rights than others. Lore might be considered mentally deficient, with some of his rights actually going to his potential guardian.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

Only insofar as Soongian androids can be considered a species in the sense humans are. Any lawyer would see the opening to challenge that presumption, and argue that Lore is no more entitled to the rights of Data than the Exocomps, the Enterprise computer or the Salt Vampire are, until specifically proven otherwise.

OTOH, even among us, some get fewer rights than others. Lore might be considered mentally deficient, with some of his rights actually going to his potential guardian.

Timo Saloniemi

Any challenge would be incoherent. Lore shares all the essential characteristics as Data does. If Data has his rights to choose. Lore must have those rights. They are essentially a species. If Lore's rights are diminished, then that's only due to his status as an outlaw. He's entitled to a trail and a defender as opposed to being summarily dismantled.

 

[Timo]

Lore shares all the essential characteristics as Data does.

Lore's body is a shell. What matters is his programming, which isn't apparent to the court at a glance. Quite possibly, Lore and Data could be as dissimilar as wolves and humans despite the confusing external appearance - a situation obviously possible with androids even when our intuition tells us that biological species would have inner qualities dictated by their outward appearance aka evolutionary history.

It's not as if Moriarty would automatically be entitled to anything despite looking and sounding and walking like a human. Or even as if his rights would naturally flow from those given to the EMH or to Vic Fontaine or to the fourth Vulcan Love Slave from the right in the back row.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Paradise City]

Lore's body is a shell. What matters is his programming, which isn't apparent to the court at a glance. Quite possibly, Lore and Data could be as dissimilar as wolves and humans despite the confusing external appearance - a situation obviously possible with androids even when our intuition tells us that biological species would have inner qualities dictated by their outward appearance aka evolutionary history.

It's not as if Moriarty would automatically be entitled to anything despite looking and sounding and walking like a human. Or even as if his rights would naturally flow from those given to the EMH or to Vic Fontaine or to the fourth Vulcan Love Slave from the right in the back row.

Timo Saloniemi

Self awareness isn't something tangible; it can't be reduced to programming or be seen. The difference between Lore and Data is the difference between a good man and an evil man not the difference between a man and a dog. Lore is able to intelligently interpret what is going on around him. If Lore is merely simulating self awareness, then Data must be too. Sure, all this problematic as you can't quantifiably measure self awareness in a test-tube but if you assume Data is sentient, then there's no reason Lore isn't as well.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Only insofar as Soongian androids can be considered a species in the sense humans are. Any lawyer would see the opening to challenge that presumption, and argue that Lore is no more entitled to the rights of Data than the Exocomps, the Enterprise computer or the Salt Vampire are, until specifically proven otherwise.

You see, that's the thing though: Starfleet granted "rights" to Data. But Data is not human, what ever argument presented in court or here on the forum, therefore he doesn't have God given unalienable rights that all human beings (and by that extension, logically, all humanoid life in the universe) have, which cannot be given, taken away, oe be at in the hands of man. So unless Lore gets Starfleet to bestow rights upon him, he's not covered, and neither are any other pieces of equipment.

One could argue the salt vampire creature has unalienable rights, whether it knows it or not, simply because it's a being.

 

[Paradise City]

You see, that's the thing though: Starfleet granted "rights" to Data. But Data is not human, what ever argument presented in court or here on the forum, therefore he doesn't have God given unalienable rights that all human beings (and by that extension, logically, all humanoid life in the universe) have, which cannot be given, taken away, oe be at in the hands of man. So unless Lore gets Starfleet to bestow rights upon him, he's not covered, and neither are any other pieces of equipment.

One could argue the salt vampire creature has unalienable rights, whether it knows it or not, simply because it's a being.

Data was given right to choose. Given inanimate objects by definition can't choose the Federation recognises his sentience. So he has all the other rights any other sentient life form has.

 

[tharpdevenport]

God given unalienable rights by definition cant' be given by man, only God. They can recognize Data as having those, but legally speaking he has to be given fake rights in order to not be considered property.

 

[Ssosmcin]

God given unalienable rights by definition cant' be given by man, only God. They can recognize Data as having those, but legally speaking he has to be given fake rights in order to not be considered property.

"Fake" rights? I have to politely object to that. The existence of "God given rights" would really depend on a belief in God,wouldn't it? God shouldn't really factor into the discussion, especially when dealing with the Federation which is made up of a variety of worlds and life forms which have their own belief systems. Not even all humans believe in God.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So unless Lore gets Starfleet to bestow rights upon him, he's not covered, and neither are any other pieces of equipment.

Lore is a life form identical to Data, so therefore Lore must have all rights that Data does. They are a race.