Why was the Defiant class not mass produced?
- Thread starter Xerxes1979
- Start date
There's no real reason to think that though. We know almost nothing about those four classes.
You can make a decent case for the Akira since it's quite a bit larger and was sent with two Defiants after Prometheus; larger tends to equal (but not always) more powerful. But about the Norway and Steamrunner we know... pretty much nothing. And the Sabre is the same relative size as the Defiant, so it doesn't even have that going for it (poor unappreciated Sabre
).We don't even know for certain that all four spaceframes are from the same generation as Defiant, we only know their first appearance was in First Contact. It's a reasonable enough assumption, but it's arguable.
We know Defiant was built as a dedicated warship, has minimal (at best) scientific/exploratory capabilities, and was overpowered to the point of nearly flying apart. We also know Defiant went toe-to-toe with a ship more than twice its size and similarly upgraded in technology and weapons tech, even if the spaceframe was older (Lakota) - and unlike going up against non-hero ships, Lakota was an antihero ship, so a reasonable comparison point. So it seems that crew and weapons/shields tech being reasonably equal (if crew somewhat in the smaller ship's favor) a Defiant class can reasonably take on a ship twice its weight class.
OTOH, Defiants may only be able to function over reasonably short ranges. I seem to recall they were described as "escorts" so they may not have the range or longevity as those larger ships. That doesn't really explain Valiant but if the whole thing was something of a suicide mission anyway...
I tend to think we just didn't see many Defiants because of a combination of would've been confusing to the viewer and they were on other fronts. Maybe the 7th Fleet had a lot of Defiants and other modern ships?
My own take is that by itself, Defiant-class ships were meant to work in a squadron (i.e., a squadron of Defiant-class ships working in concert) to take down a superior force. But by itself, a single Defiant-class ship isn't some kind of "invincible uber ship," just one better optimized for combat for a ship its size.
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It was definitely a Miranda, so the only way for that to be the Bozeman is if they up(down?)graded her to the standard Miranda. Which is possible I guess given the decommissioned the Soyuz but the Miranda was going strong.
I agree with this view. We did after all only get a quite limited view of the Dominion War and even the battles we did see we mostly only saw what was going on around the Defiant. Even the largest Fed fleet we saw, that in Operation Return, who many of the six hundred vessels in the fleet did we actually see on screen? There is still enough wiggle room that there could have been more than just one Defiant class vessel in Operation Return or at Chin'toka or Cardassia.
Pretty much the same view I take with the Sovereign class and the Enterprise-E, even though we didn't seem them in the war I like to believe they took part.
Saquist
Commodore
No Akira Steamrunner and Saber were older vessels.
Akira and Saber were register in the 60,000's
and Steamrunner int he 52,000's
They, like the Nebula Class were pre Galaxy Class starships and they were in every way far inferior to the Galaxy Class Starship.
While Defiant was far superior to the Galaxy Class Starship. As seen in Chintoka as Defiant's shields held repeatedly against the Dominion defense satellites and all other ships were defenseless against them.
As for the Sovereign, it's a failed design and will likely be abandoned like the Constitution II was. It was likely part of the same project as the Defiant. To many resources and too much development time went into Sovereign. I doubt we'll see the ship again when they equipped the Lakota with comprable weapons (theres the Excellsior proving itself again after 100 years of operational history)
Defiant is the most powerful ship they have and they are likely mass producing it as we have indeed seen multiple Defiants out there.
^Yeah, that all sounds like the same sort of anti-Defiant stuff I complained against, just from the other direction. Defiant (the ship, not the class) was a hero ship, so you have to take that into account when analyzing its performance - and especially when comparing its performance to that of other Starfleet ships. Also there's a bit of a disconnect there - how can Steamrunners, Akiras, et al. be obviously inferior just because they're older (which is an assumption), and yet Lakota is an example of how powerful Excelsiors are - which is a much older class!
There's no reason to assume the Sovereign is a failed class (they built at least two after all), and why throw away all that development time when the class has definitely proven itself?
There's no reason to assume the Sovereign is a failed class (they built at least two after all), and why throw away all that development time when the class has definitely proven itself?
I realize the space argument, but saying the ship is on par with a Galaxy (which I believe I mentioned earlier anyway due to its TNG appearances) in no way implies that the Warbird is a weak ship by any means, either. That's what I'm confused about. If one's bark is worse than its bite, but its bite can still destroy powerful ships in a few shots, that's still pretty impressive.
There's no real reason to think that though. We know almost nothing about those four classes.
You can make a decent case for the Akira since it's quite a bit larger and was sent with two Defiants after Prometheus; larger tends to equal (but not always) more powerful. But about the Norway and Steamrunner we know... pretty much nothing. And the Sabre is the same relative size as the Defiant, so it doesn't even have that going for it (poor unappreciated Sabre
And, why not send the Akira to investigate the Dominion threat in the Search?
If these classes were more powerful and improved -no bugs- it should have been the choice to confront the Dominion.
All things considering, the Defiant's "power firing" got the job done and quick.
Just one of them plowed through a fleet of Jem Hadar ships, imagine what an entire fleet or several fleets could do.
I think if the Akira's were more powerful, the Defiants were more tougher.
I rather liked the Mirandas, after I saw them in S.O.A.
Seeing them give their all in that battle scene made them look like tough hard working ships.
^ The main reason why not to send an Akira would be because it doesn't have a cloaking device. The plan was to sneak through Dominion space and talk to the Founders and convince them that the Federation isn't a threat/doesn't want to be enemies...why someone thought purposefully violate their borders and sneaking a warship to the Founder's doorstep was the right way to deliver that message is a bit iffy.
Anyway, if you were to judge the Defiant by what it did in "The Search" you'd say it was a failure. In its very first mission it was disabled and captured by the enemy, hardly a stunning endorsement of the ship's capabilities. Actually, technically the class was already a failure, so you'd just be further proving that.
Maybe the fact it was a failure helped. I doubt Starfleet would be all that excited about sending more ships into the GQ to talk to the Dominion especially after their initial meeting went so poorly for Starfleet. They might not have wanted to risk another Galaxy or Akira (assuming a cloaking device could be worked into those designs), or their hundreds of crew on a long shot that had "suicide mission" as a byline. Sisko might have convinced them by saying that the only thing they've risk, apart from their lives, was a rather worthless prototype that was sitting in the shed. Also given the Romulans are the ones giving the cloaking device, maybe they didn't want the Federation to have a cloakable Galaxy or Akira wandering around, they surely wouldn't trust the Federation to only use it in the GQ. So they accepted the Defiant, maybe viewing it as less of a threat...wild speculation for sure.
Luckily for the Defiant it turned that around over the next year/year and a half, so that by at least mid-2372 more Defiants were being launched.
Anyway, if you were to judge the Defiant by what it did in "The Search" you'd say it was a failure. In its very first mission it was disabled and captured by the enemy, hardly a stunning endorsement of the ship's capabilities. Actually, technically the class was already a failure, so you'd just be further proving that.
Maybe the fact it was a failure helped. I doubt Starfleet would be all that excited about sending more ships into the GQ to talk to the Dominion especially after their initial meeting went so poorly for Starfleet. They might not have wanted to risk another Galaxy or Akira (assuming a cloaking device could be worked into those designs), or their hundreds of crew on a long shot that had "suicide mission" as a byline. Sisko might have convinced them by saying that the only thing they've risk, apart from their lives, was a rather worthless prototype that was sitting in the shed. Also given the Romulans are the ones giving the cloaking device, maybe they didn't want the Federation to have a cloakable Galaxy or Akira wandering around, they surely wouldn't trust the Federation to only use it in the GQ. So they accepted the Defiant, maybe viewing it as less of a threat...wild speculation for sure.
Luckily for the Defiant it turned that around over the next year/year and a half, so that by at least mid-2372 more Defiants were being launched.
Saquist
Commodore
Lakota was said to be refitted.
Steamrunners, Akiras and Saberes are all inferior because they either have 3 or less phaser arrays and extremely limited firing arcs and no torpedoes.
Star Trek Bridge Commander, noncanon.
Introduced Sovereign as a mothballed ship just like Defiant with it's own set of problems. Specifically Deflector and engines...It does have a simiar core as the Defiant so it's reasonable.
Sovereign got a massive refit. Phaser arcs and launcers that should have been there in the first place and a complete reworking of structural areas like pylons and the saucer/stardrive convergence. Then it's lacking all lateral sensors, there is a separation plane but no impulse engines on the stardrive, no warp core ejection port on the belly...It's just a mess of a design. Eaves didn't have the time to finish it properly and still didn't finish it in Nemesis.
Also explains with the speed at which star fleet makes ship why no other Sovereign has been seen. (that's my speculation on the matter.
You're incorrect about the Sabre and Akiras not having torpedoes. They were all shown firing them in First Contact. I don't think we've seen a Steamrunner fire torpedoes though.
Plus it isn't as if the Defiant has the most flexible phaser firing arc in the galaxy.
So you're saying the prototype of the Sovereign class had issues. That's quite different from the entire class was a failure. In the real world not all prototypes get to have a life past being a prototype.
In terms of non-canon, I'll counter with the shared Treklit continuity which has numerous Sovereign class ships going strong a decade after they entered service.
I think that, and the fact that Sisko helped design the class, so knew it inside and out.
Yes, but there was nothing unique about the process - even if Steamrunner/Akiras/Sabres/Norways are older spaceframes, the same thing could be done.
Assuming you're getting this from Bridge Commander again? I think the majority of noncanon sources contradict that - ISTR an article about the Akira indicating it was designed as a torpedo boa. And USS da Vinci, assigned to the Starfleet Corps of Engineers, I'm almost certain has torpedos, though I've not read their stories.
It's an interesting alternate take, but I think the great majority of noncanon sources disagree.
ETA: also, what he said. ^ Though I'll note that I'm pretty sure Defiant has a regular phaser array too on the dorsal side for better phaser arcs; the Mirror Universe one did, at least.
Correct me or not wasn't there another warship I think called valiant which was same class and i really can not remember for the life of me but I'm sure there was another looking defiant ship in some voyager episode where the doc goes to alpha quadrant or something and was there 2 of them am I wrong???? so at least there was a few around is what I'm saying
Haha, so we have a non-canon videogame vs. an actual onscreen movie in terms of what constitutes as evidence
A thing about the Akira intended to be a torpedo boat -- she was designed by Alex Jaeger to have some fifteen torpedo launchers. It wasn't depicted on screen so we can't really say for sure if she was a torpedo boat, BUT it's something different altogether to think that the Akira can't fire any torpedoes at all (esp. with First Contact conveniently proving that wrong).
Additionally, I don't think the tech manuals are considered canon anyway, but if we're (knowingly) citing video games, then I believe tech manuals have more weight to it if canon is to be a scale. With that said, the DS9 manual says Akira has six phaser arrays, two launchers. Steamrunner has four arrays, two launchers, and the Sabre has four arrays, two launchers. (curiously, we only see the Galaxy use three phaser arrays, even though it has around 12).
Lol I apologies I kind of skimmed through the pages
Saquist
Commodore
Haha, so we have a non-canon videogame vs. an actual onscreen movie in terms of what constitutes as evidence
Yeah sure, ill take it we're not likely to get a proper explanation ever.
Lets say they did design the Akira with the "torpedo boat" mentality. It's not that way anymore. In full battle mode this vessel has never been seen firing from those launchers all out. My estimation is they've been pulled. These ships are relics of the early 24th century...designed bubble gum, if you will.
The tech manuals also say Defiant's torpedo launchers are targeting sensors. Physcial inspection of the Akira model reveals only 3 phaser array. Could there be more (SURE) but we don't see them and the VFX sure didn't make them evident.
It's not the process it's the space-frame.
The question is what do you have to work with. Excelsior has more than 16 phaser arrays and dual fore and aft torpedo launchers and very maneuverable on impulse.
Assuming you're getting this from Bridge Commander again?
But the cloaking device was on loan from the Romulans, which was installed in the Defiant.
It could have been installed on an Akira too, it also seems roughly the same size as the Defiant.
The enter the territory with a deadly warship idea, makes sense though-would Starfleet be as forgiving (or believing) if the Dominion did the same thing?
If they did, actually that would be part of the problem..
It could have been installed on an Akira too, it also seems roughly the same size as the Defiant.
The enter the territory with a deadly warship idea, makes sense though-would Starfleet be as forgiving (or believing) if the Dominion did the same thing?
If they did, actually that would be part of the problem..
My primary point was that it was pretty silly to say that the Akira had no torpedo launchers at all when the designer made profuse use of them, and even then firing only a few torpedoes, while it says nothing about being a torpedo boat, still clearly displays the ability to shoot torpedoes in the first place. Saying it can't fire torpedoes is one end of the spectrum, saying it has 15 torpedo tubes is at the other end of the spectrum; saying it can fire torpedoes, and then citing actual visual evidence for it, is right smack dab in the middle.
Also, if we're going by registration as dates, I honestly don't think the Akiras are relics of early 24th century. They indicate mid-24th, which is a considerable jump in technology in the Trekverse.
With my other point being that if we're taking non-canon sources, they often tend to contradict each other. So one can't "take them all" and then try to reconcile them in any way without a matter of fan-made preference and a rather large amount of cherry-picking.
(as well, if Bridge Commander counts, then Star Trek Online is probably the closest thing to canon -- it's an actual "living" game, continually updated and worked on with tons more stats, unlike BC)
