Why doesn't Paramount just use AI to upscale DS9 and VOY into HD?
- Thread starter The Rock
- Start date
I know my tolerance for poor picture is probably higher than many but can you show an example of what's muddy as a picture?
Does it happen on a laptop too or is it with the newer TVs?
An upscale would not work on existing DS9/VOY. If Paramount can dig out the tape masters those can be digitized and upscaled, you"ll get something a lot nicer than what's out there now, even if it won't be true HD.
The original estimate for TNG-R was around $30 million i think; DS9 would be at least $40 imo.
The original estimate for TNG-R was around $30 million i think; DS9 would be at least $40 imo.
DS9 does have a lot more CGI.
For me at least I define muddy as ghosting when things are moving on the screen.
The big difference with those series is that at the time they were produced, each episode edit was conformed to film, and thus the film elements just needed to be rescanned for HD. No need to redo postproduction from scratch. You're just stuck with very subpar effects shots.
Like TNG, (original) TWIN PEAKS and THE X-FILES were originally edited on video, so had to have postproduction redone for each episode... from pulling out the dailies onward. But, CBS and Fox didn't pay to produce new effects so you have upconverted effects sequences as well as SD upconverts standing in for scenes that couldn't be located in the salt mine.
This is why TNG is still held up as the gold standard for a HD remaster. And it helps that only "Power Play" and "The First Duty" have noticeable SD swaps... they really went above and beyond putting in the time to find missing elements. One season 2 XF episode is all but unwatchable because 20% is zoomed in SD upconverted footage (luckily it was one of the worst from that season anyway).
I mean, I gave up on finally watching BUFFY because it looked insanely awful on a 46" TV. Can't imagine what it would be like on my current 65" 4K...
At least the cost to redo DS9 and VGR is about $25-30 million each. That sounds like a lot, but that's what just three PICARD episodes cost to produce. Luckily it sounds like the success of the 4K TMP director's edition on Paramount+ might have given new movement to finally getting this done.
Been rewatching Buffy (On Disney+) fine on my 4k. I'm not sure if the D+ are the HD transfers or not.
But I do have one big problem with it, the musical episode is the cut down version.
Edit: I double checked, the show is in wide screen on D+, so it is the shitty HD transfer.
As someone who was an avid fan during the switchover to HD, it made a huge difference for me. No way I could go back to SD now.
Ahh, I have the DVDs from the UK. Bought the whole series when it was on sale way back in 2009, so yeah it's been a while!
This actually does bring up a good point. Not all HD remasters are equal. This one being the most infamous misfire.
Hopefully when DS9 and VGR happen, they don't mess with the aspect ratio, or engage in haphazard revisionism.
With DS9 and VOY, it's probably going to be the same as with TOS and TNG. They'll keep the aspect ratio the same.
The "haphazard revisionism", I doubt they'd go the same lengths with DS9/VOY as they did with TOS/TNG. So that means they'll go the laziest possible route to get them upscaled. Unlike with TOS, they won't actively go out of their way to change things. Including the battle in "What You Leave Behind" where a lot of Niners want a lot of things fixed. And unlike with TNG, they won't go out of their way to put everything back together again. It would take more effort than I suspect they're willing to put in.
Most likely scenario: They upscale the pre-existing masters and call it a day. Maybe, maybe with footage that doesn't require heavy SFX, they upscale from the film source instead of the original masters.
Ahh, here I was referring what happened with BUFFY... this is all from memory from several years ago, but apparently scenes were horribly reframed, day for night scenes not adjusted so vampires were out during the day etc. Makes what happened to the first two seasons of THE X-FILES (cropping the top and bottom and expanding the sides, and then cropping any SD scenes) seem minor in comparison.
EDIT: here's a link to the most watched YouTube video about the debacle
On occasion I see some DS9 clips on YouTube that has been upscaleed to HD and it looks pretty good. However it's usually clips from after season 2 which geneally look better by default. I just compared a clip ftom "The Way of the Warrior' AI upscaled on YouTube that I casted to my TV and the current version of that episode ( same scene) that's streaming right now on Paramount plus. Didn't see a big difference. They both look like passable HD or "good" DVD quality. I've heard whispers that the reason the PP version looks pretty good is because Paramount may have already quietly upscaleed DS9. I'm in Canada and DS9 clearly looks better on PP than it does on Canadian Netflix and at least looks slightly better than the DVDs.
The true test for me is the few minutes of "Emissary ". Is there any upscale clips of those scenes that actually look decent? Because to date, it's ranged between God awful quality to mediocre DVD quality. I have yet to see a HD ish improvement of those first few minutes that looks like anything close to passable HD or even "good" DVD quality. Especially the colors being so muted. If Paramount plus did recently upload a new print, Emissary still looks noticeably subpar unfortunately.
The true test for me is the few minutes of "Emissary ". Is there any upscale clips of those scenes that actually look decent? Because to date, it's ranged between God awful quality to mediocre DVD quality. I have yet to see a HD ish improvement of those first few minutes that looks like anything close to passable HD or even "good" DVD quality. Especially the colors being so muted. If Paramount plus did recently upload a new print, Emissary still looks noticeably subpar unfortunately.
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I'm curious ... when they did the HD remaster of TNG, did they have to compensate the actors/writers who produced those episodes, or renegotiate a new deal, in order to release it?
Or is something like this usually covered by their original contracts and Paramount is able to do with it whatever they like?
Or is something like this usually covered by their original contracts and Paramount is able to do with it whatever they like?
I'm pretty sure they didn't. "Digitally Renastering " of some degree has been around since the early days of DVD. I'm pretty sure the HD remastering would be similarly under that same umbrella like any other visual upgrade. So probably no specific compensation related to the actual act of remastering.
I wonder if something like this can one day be possible or if this is science fiction :
Go back and find the original raw film for each episode and instead of painstakingly Reediting it, feed it all at once into an AI server. Then use AI to do a smart, frame by frame improvement of the completed SD print, using the film elements it downloaded as a guide or even actually adding new data to the SD image based on or derived directly from the corresponding available film elements it has access to. So when it scans Sisko moving or talking in a certain way in the SD episode, it finds the film elements from that exact scene and "clones" /replicates improvements into the SD scene , enhancing its definition.
I know....this almost sounds like holodeck stuff. Like asking the holedeck to scan the original Godfather movies and creating a new holodeck program with every character looking and sounding like they did in the original movies. In the case of a hypothetical remaster though, no new dialogue or scenes need to be created/imagined.
Probably unlikely but with the advances of AI, who knows if something like this can some day happen.
Fittinlgly , I asked Chatbot GBT if this is possible in the future. LoL It's response:
In theory, this is certainly possible and aligns with some current trends in AI and video restoration. The concept would involve several key steps:
Digitizing Raw Film: The original raw film footage for each episode would need to be digitized in high resolution to create a detailed reference database.
AI Analysis: An AI system would analyze both the high-resolution raw film elements and the low-resolution edited video tape. The AI would learn to recognize corresponding frames and sequences between the two sources.
Frame-by-Frame Improvement: The AI could then apply a smart, frame-by-frame improvement process to the low-resolution video tape. Using the high-resolution film as a reference, it would enhance the low-resolution footage by adding details, correcting colors, and improving overall image quality.
Data Integration: In cases where the AI identifies areas where the SD image lacks detail, it could integrate new data derived directly from the corresponding high-resolution film elements. This would involve a sophisticated understanding of the content, ensuring that the added details match the original footage's look and feel.
Final Output: The result would be a high-resolution, enhanced version of the original TV show, preserving the integrity of the original editing while significantly improving visual quality.
This approach would combine the strengths of AI upscaling with traditional restoration techniques, potentially making the process more efficient and less labor-intensive. While current AI technologies are not fully capable of achieving this level of detail and integration autonomously, ongoing advancements in machine learning and video processing make this a promising direction for future development.
Go back and find the original raw film for each episode and instead of painstakingly Reediting it, feed it all at once into an AI server. Then use AI to do a smart, frame by frame improvement of the completed SD print, using the film elements it downloaded as a guide or even actually adding new data to the SD image based on or derived directly from the corresponding available film elements it has access to. So when it scans Sisko moving or talking in a certain way in the SD episode, it finds the film elements from that exact scene and "clones" /replicates improvements into the SD scene , enhancing its definition.
I know....this almost sounds like holodeck stuff. Like asking the holedeck to scan the original Godfather movies and creating a new holodeck program with every character looking and sounding like they did in the original movies. In the case of a hypothetical remaster though, no new dialogue or scenes need to be created/imagined.
Probably unlikely but with the advances of AI, who knows if something like this can some day happen.
Fittinlgly , I asked Chatbot GBT if this is possible in the future. LoL It's response:
In theory, this is certainly possible and aligns with some current trends in AI and video restoration. The concept would involve several key steps:
Digitizing Raw Film: The original raw film footage for each episode would need to be digitized in high resolution to create a detailed reference database.
AI Analysis: An AI system would analyze both the high-resolution raw film elements and the low-resolution edited video tape. The AI would learn to recognize corresponding frames and sequences between the two sources.
Frame-by-Frame Improvement: The AI could then apply a smart, frame-by-frame improvement process to the low-resolution video tape. Using the high-resolution film as a reference, it would enhance the low-resolution footage by adding details, correcting colors, and improving overall image quality.
Data Integration: In cases where the AI identifies areas where the SD image lacks detail, it could integrate new data derived directly from the corresponding high-resolution film elements. This would involve a sophisticated understanding of the content, ensuring that the added details match the original footage's look and feel.
Final Output: The result would be a high-resolution, enhanced version of the original TV show, preserving the integrity of the original editing while significantly improving visual quality.
This approach would combine the strengths of AI upscaling with traditional restoration techniques, potentially making the process more efficient and less labor-intensive. While current AI technologies are not fully capable of achieving this level of detail and integration autonomously, ongoing advancements in machine learning and video processing make this a promising direction for future development.
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I have held out hope of a DS9 remaster, but I fear as time goes on the chances get lower.
Also the constant changing shape of the US media market won't help. Now following the ParaCBVIacom merger they're going to be looking for cost cutting. Spending on redoing 30 year old shows that failed to perform well at the time probably isn't a high priority.
Also the constant changing shape of the US media market won't help. Now following the ParaCBVIacom merger they're going to be looking for cost cutting. Spending on redoing 30 year old shows that failed to perform well at the time probably isn't a high priority.
That’s why I just went ahead and bought the dvd series set last time Amazon had it on sale. Same for Voyager and Enterprise. Although Enterprise is on Blu-ray.
I’m fine with double dipping if I have to should they remaster. But better to have something than nothing.
Seems like it'd be simpler to develop a tool that can use the SD video as a guide to assemble the scanned HD footage into a rough edit for a human editor to complete. And it'd also look way way better. WAY way way better.
I do like the part where it gets them to make a pristine high quality scan of the film elements before they degrade too much, but I hope there's enough push back from fans against AI upscaling to pressure studios to continue putting the money into doing it right.
The sad thing is Paramount didn’t really care much about DS9 when it was airing and it doesn’t care now, as evidenced by the fact that, outside of Worf and Lower Decks we haven’t seen a single DS9 character in NuTrek. Despite some nice references in the last season of Discovery…it seems it’s still Trek’s ugly stepchild to them. Only Enterprise fares worse.
