Was this Wrath Of Khan music?

[Gingerbread Demon]

I just watched Aliens again and it's still a fun movie, but I just noticed in a scene or two there's a chunk of music that sounds very much like the music from Star Trek II .

It's probably because the composer is James Horner but the music in those scenes just sounded like they used some bits of Wrath Of Khan.

Can anyone confirm if that music is in other movies or is this a James Horner trademark in all his movies?

 

[Christopher]

It's not the exact same track that was recorded for TWOK, no, but James Horner is well-known for recycling melodies and segments of music from one film score to another. I remember a bit of the Cocoon score using an extended version of a melody that was also used in a Search for Spock cue.

 

[tharpdevenport]

While it's certainly not new composers borrowing from themselves, Horner how ever is only one of a few I know of that did it frequently and often with only little changes (and even including entire little passages). Not only was he guilty of this, but he would plagarize from classical music (since he didn't credit it, I'm saying plagarized; I don't care if most compsoers don't credit it), modern classical work (you can hear one of Britten's Four Sea Interludes from the opera Peter Grimes lifted almsot note-for-note and even down to the orchestration, in "The Journey of Natty Gann"), and then had the audacity (I heard him say it in an interview) to say he doesn't do it purposefully. Down. To. The. Orchestration. And tempo. Yet he didn't do it purposefully.

It's not uncommon to find TWoK in "Rascals and Robbers", "Something Wikced This Way Comes" in [again] "Rascals and Robbers", or part of the Romeo and Juliet classical music in parts of TWoK (and I think TSfS), for example. Even Willow's Theme is from elsewhere.

There's threads at two boards I know of, one of them at jwfan.com (for compsoer John Williams) in a thread titled: The Ultimate James Horner's Plagiarism List.

 

[TrickyDickie]

With ASCAP and all, how does he get away with it?

 

[Christopher]

With ASCAP and all, how does he get away with it?

Huh? Horner only copied his own music, not other people's. And he's not the only one. Bernard Herrmann was known to recycle melodies -- for instance, his Marnie theme was derived from part of his The 7th Voyage of Sinbad theme.

 

[tharpdevenport]

No idea, but since he's now deceased, it's really not an issue anymore, unless somebody sues the family estate over some lift.

I must say though, they plagarized bits worked like charms in the respective films they wre used in. I can't imagine not hearing the [original recording] of "Stealing the Enterprise" without that Romeo and Juliet opening.

 

[TrickyDickie]

Huh? Horner only copied his own music, not other people's. And he's not the only one. Bernard Herrmann was known to recycle melodies -- for instance, his Marnie theme was derived from part of his The 7th Voyage of Sinbad theme.

It was stated above that he took from the work of others and not just his own.

Was it just from works older than 99 years?

 

[tharpdevenport]

No.


Maybe Christopher is thinking about film/TV composers. I can't think of a lift (doesn't mean there areen't any) off the top of my head.

If the copyright is still held, you can get sued for older classical work. The Planets, by Holst, is from 1914-1916 and Hans Zimmer was sued not too long ago over using part of or parts of it. My understanding is the estate patrols the work and you can't just use, for example, Mars, Bringer of War, without their permission.

 

[mos6507]

Gee this sounds similar to another sci-fi franchise's score...coincidence?

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No, Horner isn't the only one who did this. Maybe he was the worst offender, but not unique.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Yeah, I remember now a prime example of being more than a little inspired by something else, wherein you listen to a cue from Alfred Newman's score to [I think this was the one] "The Robe" and you can hear like three famous John Williams film themes in it.


Leonard Rosenman was another one of the guilty culprits who borrowed from hismelf like he was going out of style.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yeah but if a composer is using his own work it's no issue.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Yeah but if a composer is using his own work it's no issue.

That's not correct. Horner worked for various studios, all of which own the material he wrote. In rare instances in the U.S., a compsoer might get a chance to buy out the rights, otherwise they belong to a studio, so borrowing from various scores crosses from one studio's rights to another studio's rights.


It's like the "Independance Day" sequel coming up: the studio owns the rights to Arnold's music, so if Kloser/Wanker want to use it, they can.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

That's not correct. Horner worked for various studios, all of which own the material he wrote. In rare instances in the U.S., a compsoer might get a chance to buy out the rights, otherwise they belong to a studio, so borrowing from various scores crosses from one studio's rights to another studio's rights.


It's like the "Independance Day" sequel coming up: the studio owns the rights to Arnold's music, so if Kloser/Wanker want to use it, they can.

OK I stand corrected. I had assumed when a composer writes music it is their own work and they own the rights to it.

Does that apply to other things like writing?

 

[tharpdevenport]

I'm sorry, I don't know.

I assume work-for-hire scripts for a studio are owned by the studio, that's why some properties are owned by a studio and some are not. My best guess.

Overseas, at least it used to be (I don't know anymore) a composer would retain the rights to their score in some countries.

 

[Firebird]

Composers do this all the time. Jerry Goldsmith admitted he cribbed from Bernard Herrmann's score for Vertigo in some of the themes for TMP. Miklos Rosza copied quite a bit of his own score for Quo Vadis into Ben-Hur, and even elevated the material. In fact, Rosza recycled themes about as much as Horner did.

Post Edit: my assumption that Goldsmith consciously used music Herrmann was incorrect. My next post points out the correction.

 

[Maurice]

Gee this sounds similar to another sci-fi franchise's score...coincidence?

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Nothing jumps to mind as being super similar to this. To which franchise are you referring?

Composers do this all the time. Jerry Goldsmith admitted he cribbed from Bernard Herrmann's score for Vertigo in some of the themes for TMP.

That really requires a source.

 

[Firebird]

That really requires a source.

I think it's in Cameron Patrick's thesis on the score for TMP: http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/dai...84/Cameron-Patrick's-ST-TMP-Goldsmith-Thesis/

Either it was Goldsmith who said it, or an assertion that Patrick made. If it was the latter case, I do apologize, and will retract my assertion.

EDIT: looks like I was incorrect. Patrick points out on pages 114-115 in his thesis that the V'ger Flyover theme "pays more than a passing homage to [...] Herrmann."

 

[Maurice]

Skimming it, I see no references to Vertigo nor Herrman.

 

[Firebird]

Skimming it, I see no references to Vertigo nor Herrman.

The author specifically brings up Herrmann on pages 114-115 of the thesis. But, like I said, I misremembered and misattributed the Vertigo connection.

 

[Maurice]

Got it. Thanks for correcting that.