Was Kai Win Repented in the Fire Caves
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Meh, I don't think it was overacting. I mean, the whole thing was pretty melodramatic, what can you do? Also, do you mean did she repent, or was she redeemed? Or both?
Take your pick
I think she realized at the end she was on the wrong side, but I also think she busted Bajoran Hell wide open
Yes, I think that's what that scene was meant to convey.
DS9 always had a rich examination of people's individual faith, from Sisko's journey into belief/faith, to Kira's emphatic faith (tempered by knowing she needed to function in secular environments, as well as that fact that she had committed distasteful and decidely non-virtuous acts in her fight against the Cardassians), to Winn's somewhat transparently ambitious and self-serving faith - which had elements analogous i think to modern "prosperity theology": that is, "I serve the Prophets, I should be amply rewarded for being a good girl" (which, btw, for those who will assume so, is NOT normative christian theology).
For the record, I don't agree with the idea that Winn never actually had faith in the Prophets. I just think her faith was immature and struck thru with a sense of entitlement.
DS9 always had a rich examination of people's individual faith, from Sisko's journey into belief/faith, to Kira's emphatic faith (tempered by knowing she needed to function in secular environments, as well as that fact that she had committed distasteful and decidely non-virtuous acts in her fight against the Cardassians), to Winn's somewhat transparently ambitious and self-serving faith - which had elements analogous i think to modern "prosperity theology": that is, "I serve the Prophets, I should be amply rewarded for being a good girl" (which, btw, for those who will assume so, is NOT normative christian theology).
For the record, I don't agree with the idea that Winn never actually had faith in the Prophets. I just think her faith was immature and struck thru with a sense of entitlement.
Very good points, OldManDax.
never understood the point of the bajoran religion, what's in it for them for worshipping the wormhole aliens? i mean christians and muslims get an eternal afterlife, the residence of which determined by their conduct here, buddhist who do what they are told to do go straight into nirvana, and hindus i don't know where, but certainly something nice. and as long as they are here, they can convince themselves that they own the truth, and morals, and enjoy the richest spiritual experiences and all that mumbojumbo, but the bajorans, what do they have?
Dont they believe their Pagh will join the Prophets in the Celestial Temple? Given that the Prophets are real, have said that they are "of Bajor" and the Bajorans know the Emissary I think the Bajorans are quite comfortable with what happens next.
Thanks.
This seems to be what was implicated in the series.
One of the things I like about the way DS9 portrayed Bajoran religion is it didn't suggest that it answered every significant question the believer might have, or act as a supernatural "get out of jail free card" - but it did connect with the individual believer's personal journey as well as that of the community as a whole. It was both very mystical and mysterious but also a concrete source of comfort and direction/guidance for the believer. And it allowed for the possibility that there would be moral grey areas, areas of uncertainty, but also areas where there was certainty, if that makes any sense.
Indeed on DS9 nobody disputed that the Prophets were powerful beings or that the wormhole was probably the Celestial Temple. Starfleet didnt believe they were Gods though and the Bajorans did. That was great.
Im not a religious person but if I was in Starfleet and the Bajoran wormhole aliens ended up wiping out an enemy fleet out because "their emissary" asked them to save Bajor, I might reconsider!
Im not a religious person but if I was in Starfleet and the Bajoran wormhole aliens ended up wiping out an enemy fleet out because "their emissary" asked them to save Bajor, I might reconsider!
^ Really? To me they're just powerful aliens, many species are capable of doing that. I'm religious but if I wasn't, honestly that would have no bearing on it. Interesting how people look at things in different ways. 
On topic, it's all well and good for her to realize that using the Pah Wraiths for her ambition came back to bite her, but I don't think she was repentant, I think she was just trying to back track because her plan had failed. I don't think if she had gotten out alive that she would've started trying to do the right things.
On topic, it's all well and good for her to realize that using the Pah Wraiths for her ambition came back to bite her, but I don't think she was repentant, I think she was just trying to back track because her plan had failed. I don't think if she had gotten out alive that she would've started trying to do the right things.
The Emissary of the Pah-Wraiths says, "Repentant? Are you just as much of a fool as she was? The only thing she ever repented of was her gullibility. To think she could be the chosen one of the True Prophets--never! Her weak will would tear to shreds before their majesty...not at all like mine, tempered by Cardassian steel!"
Seriously, though...I don't think she repented. (And I also think that by that point, Gul Dukat's mind was becoming so corrupt that now, instead of simply awakening after the Pah-Wraiths left him, his personality and theirs were beginning to actually merge.)
Seriously, though...I don't think she repented. (And I also think that by that point, Gul Dukat's mind was becoming so corrupt that now, instead of simply awakening after the Pah-Wraiths left him, his personality and theirs were beginning to actually merge.)
She might have been sorry for all that she did, but it was far too late for that..... she lost her faith, all her life was made up around situations that served her best interests of power and popularity..... when she didn't get what she wanted after all her scheming, she wavered and signed her soul to the devil, so to speak.
For that, she will rot in all eternity with Dukat and forever suffer through his whining and moaning about how he lost to Sisko...... and it was all because of her. That if she didn't interfere and do as he told her in the first place, none of this would have happened.
And now here he is..... stuck with the pah's and suffering by having Bajorans jabbing sharp thorny things in his ass, and every time he sits down he sits on a sharp thorny thing......
and after he's all done ranting.... he'll turn to her and say he's sorry Adami, I'm just under a lot of pressure..... and I've been so..... so lonely, then try and grab her boob......
EVERY SINGLE DAY....... THREE TIMES A DAY!!!!!!
MOOOO HOOOOOO HAAAAWWWW HAAA HAA HAA HAAAAA!!!!!!
The prophets must make an example out of the likes of her and scare any others like her, completely sh*tless in not trying to pull that kind of stunt again.
They mean it..... they'll fk'you up.
Indeed.... unlike most (I'll use that loosely) religions today, they have tangible evidence and links to their gods.
They shaped their lives around them because of the orbs and how they have no perception of time and thus, the orbs told them as much about their futures as they did about their past.
That's something a little hard to argue with, especially when something shows you a path in your life where you either do something horrible, or die....... if it helped me prevent something in the future in order for me to do something good later on...... I'd probably believe in them too.
Saquist
Commodore
What a H*.
I hated Winn with every fiber of my being. As a spiritual person I found her indictative of everything wrong with religion today. Ignorance and lies. She believed and never once tried to actually resolve these contradictions between the two before she put LIVES indanger and infact ALL OF BAJOR.
I don't even care if she was repentant. I was so happy when she burned in the Fire caves. No one deserved it more. Even Dukat was just a maniac....I could understand that...but Winn....what beligerant writhing mass of self important disgrace.
Winn was Eve. Man, she wanted that Fruit something bad. She wanted to make the calls herself she wanted to be the authority even if God said no. And because the Prophets turned away from her she assumed them wrong...
Yeah if the writers intended to mimic Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden with Winn they did a fantastic job. Winn was a character who's station in life was not enough. She wanted more even if it meant every life on Bajor.
I'd like to think her eyes were open at the end, though by then it was really too little, too late.
If Dukat hadn't toasted her, I'd probably say to go easy on her...she'd have to resign the Kai-ship of course, and should probably undergo some sort of psychological/religious counseling. She should probably face some sort of punishment for Sobor's (I'd like to think) accidental death as well, but I wouldn't say her soul was necessarily unsalvageable.
Of course, I'm also the type who thinks that current correctional institutions often take bad problems and make them worse.
If Dukat hadn't toasted her, I'd probably say to go easy on her...she'd have to resign the Kai-ship of course, and should probably undergo some sort of psychological/religious counseling. She should probably face some sort of punishment for Sobor's (I'd like to think) accidental death as well, but I wouldn't say her soul was necessarily unsalvageable.
Of course, I'm also the type who thinks that current correctional institutions often take bad problems and make them worse.
I can't help but feel a bit sorry for Winn in the end given how thoroughly she was manipulated by the Prophet. She gave her life to serve them, even wound up in a Cardassian prison where she at the very least physically assaulted regularly, used her position to help her fellow Bajoran and do what she thought was the best for her people (though obviously it was far from selfless) and all she got was been constantly ignored by the Prophets.
I disagree. SHE made those choices.
But the conflict that I think the Bajoran faith is open to is a conflict between CLEAR tangible signs (the Orbs of the Prophets, for instance, which can very clearly, demonstrably decide who they will speak to and who they will not--or the Reckoning), and other acts where there may be hints, but it requires Bajoran will to carry them out. You also have a conflict involving free will, given that the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths have on occasion outright possessed people--something that at least in my own faith would be absolutely against all that is right. And on other occasions--most occasions--they do let the Bajorans make their own choices. AND the Cardassians, excepting Dukat, made their own choices too.
What would be clearcut in most Earth religions is not, in the Bajoran faith. (Really, we could have a whole debate over whether the word "faith" is totally appropriate to the context.) Whereas in my own faith, I do not believe that God is capricious and would go against what is right, in those ways, the Prophets have demonstrably done such things.
But the conflict that I think the Bajoran faith is open to is a conflict between CLEAR tangible signs (the Orbs of the Prophets, for instance, which can very clearly, demonstrably decide who they will speak to and who they will not--or the Reckoning), and other acts where there may be hints, but it requires Bajoran will to carry them out. You also have a conflict involving free will, given that the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths have on occasion outright possessed people--something that at least in my own faith would be absolutely against all that is right. And on other occasions--most occasions--they do let the Bajorans make their own choices. AND the Cardassians, excepting Dukat, made their own choices too.
What would be clearcut in most Earth religions is not, in the Bajoran faith. (Really, we could have a whole debate over whether the word "faith" is totally appropriate to the context.) Whereas in my own faith, I do not believe that God is capricious and would go against what is right, in those ways, the Prophets have demonstrably done such things.
One thing is interesting is that we don't know if the Prophets even cared if Kai Winn repented, because they're often portrayed as not knowing what's going on with the Bajorans.
At times they seem oblivious to them.
Trek at times portrayed them as powerful aliens with some
limitations..
