Warp speed comparisons
- Thread starter USSHermes
- Start date
Is it that you think there is a difference between Warp 1 in TOS, and TNG ?
If that is the case, they are the same, as far as I know.
You may calculate Warp with the following Calculator if you wish.
http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp
Have a good Day !
S.W.
If that is the case, they are the same, as far as I know.
You may calculate Warp with the following Calculator if you wish.
http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp
Have a good Day !
S.W.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Is it that you think there is a difference between Warp 1 in TOS, and TNG ?
If that is the case, they are the same, as far as I know.
You may calculate Warp with the following Calculator if you wish.
http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp
Have a good Day !
S.W.
I thought warp was redefined in TNG to allow for greater speed while sticking with familiar "warp factors."
I think speed of plot does cause serious problems for any efforts to calculate a proper scale. Most people who give a damn about cosistency assume that the density of space (i.e. dark matter) can affect the speed a ship can travel so that warp factors are a measure of energy consumption rather than speed. Thus the speed tables represent only average speeds. This leads people to believe that 'warp corridors' (although never mentioned) exist through which great speeds can be travelled. Such corridors are the best explanation for NuEnterprise arriving at Vulcan within a few hours or NX01 flying to Klingon space at warp 4 in only 4 days. They also explain why a navigator is used in TOS to plot the best course to any destination rather than just a straight line.
Why would "only 4 days" be out of place for an Earth-Klingon trip at warp four? That's how long it has always taken our heroes to get from random planet A to a non-neighboring random planet B, even when speeds of warp 6 or higher have been considered exceptional and even dangerous.
Warp speed could be considered perfectly "consistent" in most of Trek, because we can always fudge the distances involved. After all, the ship typically moves from a fictional location to another, and a distance in identifiable units such as lightyears or parsecs is virtually never given simultaneously with a speed in warp factors or with a travel time, and literally never with both.
It's dramatically much harder to believe that our heroes are chasing the fast lanes of space when they never are stated to be doing that. Surely the decision to utilize fast lane A instead of fast lane B would be of immense tactical importance, and should be left for the Captain to do, instead of being quietly taken by the navigator. Indeed, the Captain should never bother to mention warp factors or headings since they are irrelevant in comparison with the fast lanes; instead, the Captain should always command the choice of fast lanes, just like the people in SG-1 select Gate addresses.
If the fast lanes make a minor difference only, then the dialogue can take place as we witness it in the actual shows and movies. But then the fast lanes explain nothing.
Timo Saloniemi
Part of the problem with fudging the distances is that it doesn't take much to trip themselves up. Sometimes they state the distances involved, sometimes they get into difficulties with relative distances where everybody seems close to everybody else (Earth/Vulcan/Quo'nos/Romulas or Bajor/Cardassia/Ferenginar) while at other times the locations are specific enough to cause problems (edge/centre of the Galaxy). Even amateur atronomers understand the vast distances between star systems, although closer to the core these distances are reduced quite a bit I think.
I don't think of warp corridors as motorways (or freeways) between two locations - just areas of space that could even be random placed where warp engines are more efficient. Ships need not chase them, particularly if their mission is to explore away from the established lanes but it is a fuzzy enough concept that inconsistencies can be hand-waved away within the story rather than the out of story excuse of 'speed of plot'.
From page 556 in the TrekPedia...
Warp 1 = 1x light speed
Warp 2 = 10x
Warp 3 = 39x
Warp 4 = 102x
Warp 5 = 214x
Warp 6 = 392x
Warp 7 = 656x
Warp 8 = 1,024x
Warp 9 = 1,516x
Warp 9.2 = 1,649x
Warp 9.6 = 1,909x
Warp 9.9 = 3,053x
Warp 9.99 = 7,912x
Warp 9.9999 = 199,516x
I am not sure what the equivalents were for TOS ships, but the above chart is for TNG-era ships. Hope this helps.
Warp 1 = 1x light speed
Warp 2 = 10x
Warp 3 = 39x
Warp 4 = 102x
Warp 5 = 214x
Warp 6 = 392x
Warp 7 = 656x
Warp 8 = 1,024x
Warp 9 = 1,516x
Warp 9.2 = 1,649x
Warp 9.6 = 1,909x
Warp 9.9 = 3,053x
Warp 9.99 = 7,912x
Warp 9.9999 = 199,516x
I am not sure what the equivalents were for TOS ships, but the above chart is for TNG-era ships. Hope this helps.
Commonly accepted speeds for tos were the warp factor cubed. This was partially canonized by Enterorise where the stated speeds matched this warp scale.
For example
Warp 1 = 1x
Warp 2 = 8x
Warp 3 = 27x
As you can see warp 8 in tng is faster than warp 10 in enterprise. Of course Im not sure that the TNG scale is established on screen anywhere
For example
Warp 1 = 1x
Warp 2 = 8x
Warp 3 = 27x
As you can see warp 8 in tng is faster than warp 10 in enterprise. Of course Im not sure that the TNG scale is established on screen anywhere
Warp factors are one of the earliest forms of technobabble.
None of the warp scales have been established onscreen. If anything, ships move far faster than any of those written warp factors, IMO. We can rationalize that warp factors get faster with each passing one, but that's about it. You can sit down and work out the math in any given story, but it definitely won't work for every story, and perhaps not even for most of them...
None of the warp scales have been established onscreen. If anything, ships move far faster than any of those written warp factors, IMO. We can rationalize that warp factors get faster with each passing one, but that's about it. You can sit down and work out the math in any given story, but it definitely won't work for every story, and perhaps not even for most of them...
Indeed, we lack even the most basic of anchor points here - we don't know how fast warp 1 is.
Nowhere in the onscreen material is it established that warp 1 would coincide exactly with lightspeed. Incidents where this speed is used would allow for it to be quite a bit faster than lightspeed, or even somewhat lower than lightspeed if one wants.
There are two or three places where the speed of a warping ship is given in identifiable units - (kilo)meters per second. Only one of these also provides the exact corresponding warp speed, though - ENT "Broken Bow", where 30,000,000 km/s is warp 4.4.
In the entirety of Star Trek, we really only have this one fix point. And if it's dependent on local subspace conditions or something, or if Archer's words include inaccuracy, rounding, exaggeration, deceit or error, then we're left with basically nothing at all.
Timo Saloniemi
Nowhere in the onscreen material is it established that warp 1 would coincide exactly with lightspeed. Incidents where this speed is used would allow for it to be quite a bit faster than lightspeed, or even somewhat lower than lightspeed if one wants.
There are two or three places where the speed of a warping ship is given in identifiable units - (kilo)meters per second. Only one of these also provides the exact corresponding warp speed, though - ENT "Broken Bow", where 30,000,000 km/s is warp 4.4.
In the entirety of Star Trek, we really only have this one fix point. And if it's dependent on local subspace conditions or something, or if Archer's words include inaccuracy, rounding, exaggeration, deceit or error, then we're left with basically nothing at all.
Timo Saloniemi
According to the US Navy naval glossary and terminology: Normal Speed- The speed at which ships proceed if a signaled speed is not ordered.
Really hope that helps everyone.
"Space normal speed" could mean slower than impulse, but faster than escape velocity from a planet's gravitational field, for all we know...
Or then "normal" might refer to the geometric concept of being at right angles to something, perhaps to the surface of the planet they are leaving (that is, their backs are turned directly toward it), or then to the planar geometry of subspace or some such nonsense.
I'm sort of glad that this terminology didn't stick. Even the USN definition is pretty much inapplicable here, because according to it, Kirk couldn't command "normal speed" because it's a speed maintained when there are no commands on speed...
Timo Saloniemi
I'm sort of glad that this terminology didn't stick. Even the USN definition is pretty much inapplicable here, because according to it, Kirk couldn't command "normal speed" because it's a speed maintained when there are no commands on speed...
Timo Saloniemi
^^That's assuming "Space Normal Speed" has some connection to current navy terminology. It most likely means lightspeed or slower since Kirk wanted to have sensors scanning the planet as long as possible on their way out of the system.
Broken down by context from TOS:
"Where No One Has Gone Before" interestingly has the E-D's "Between Galaxies" speed at around 24 light years per day. Subspace message between galaxies was at 142 light years per day. "Between star systems" seems to suggest some fairly fast speeds crossing a third of the galaxy in weeks according to "The Chase".
Voyager's "Caretaker" episode had a much slower speed "Between star systems" speed returning home at under 3 light years per day.
Broken down by context from TOS:
- Light speed or slower
- Space Normal Speed - "Galileo Seven", "Arena"
- Sub-warp Speed - "Operation Annihilate"
- Light Speed - "The Corbomite Maneuver", "The Cage"
- Quarter Speed, Half Speed, Full Speed - "The Corbomite Maneuver", "The Doomsday Machine", "Obsession", "Plato's Stepchildren"
- .64 of Light [Speed] - "The Corbomite Maneuver"
- Sublight [Speed] Factor .037 - "Elaan of Troyius"
- Faster Than Light speed
- Warp Speed - most episodes
- Maximum Speed - "Friday's Child", etc
- Emergency Warp Speed - "Balance of Terror"
- Inside star system
- Warping in system even at high warp factors are significantly slower the closer to the system's star. "Tomorrow is Yesterday", "Operation: Annihilate". Not much faster than speed of light.
- Between star systems
- Very fast. "That Which Survives" and "Obsession" gives us speeds in the 1,000 light year per day range at high warp factors.
- Between galaxies
- Not nearly as fast as between star systems. "By Any Other Name" suggests 2 light years per day before Kelvan modifications. With Kelvan modifications, upwards of 24 light years per day.
"Where No One Has Gone Before" interestingly has the E-D's "Between Galaxies" speed at around 24 light years per day. Subspace message between galaxies was at 142 light years per day. "Between star systems" seems to suggest some fairly fast speeds crossing a third of the galaxy in weeks according to "The Chase".
Voyager's "Caretaker" episode had a much slower speed "Between star systems" speed returning home at under 3 light years per day.
A silly nitpick:
To be sure, Data was saying that getting the message across the 2,700,000 ly would take "fifty-one years, ten months, nine weeks, sixteen days-" before being cut off. That doesn't sound like the sum total of 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks and 16 days, because 9 weeks is more than a month, and 16 days is more than a week! Nobody would say "I'll be there in one week and sixteen days"...
So we could just as well take Data's rant as a list of options: "51 years, or 10 months, or 9 weeks, or 16 days, or 47 minutes, depending on whether you want to channel 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 percent of nominal power to the comm array, Sir." Some of the latter options would jibe better with the general case where communications across hundreds of lightyears appear instantaneous (say, "Firstborn" or "Homefront").
Assuming the section of map where this travel plan was demonstrated wasn't zoomed in against the general background of the galactic disk... Which would be a fairly workable way of eliminating this outlier datapoint.
Timo Saloniemi
To be sure, Data was saying that getting the message across the 2,700,000 ly would take "fifty-one years, ten months, nine weeks, sixteen days-" before being cut off. That doesn't sound like the sum total of 51 years, 10 months, 9 weeks and 16 days, because 9 weeks is more than a month, and 16 days is more than a week! Nobody would say "I'll be there in one week and sixteen days"...
So we could just as well take Data's rant as a list of options: "51 years, or 10 months, or 9 weeks, or 16 days, or 47 minutes, depending on whether you want to channel 1, 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000 percent of nominal power to the comm array, Sir." Some of the latter options would jibe better with the general case where communications across hundreds of lightyears appear instantaneous (say, "Firstborn" or "Homefront").
Assuming the section of map where this travel plan was demonstrated wasn't zoomed in against the general background of the galactic disk... Which would be a fairly workable way of eliminating this outlier datapoint.
Timo Saloniemi
In 'The 37's', Tom Paris also states "Warp 9.9. In your terms, that's about four billion miles a second"
Actually, it might make sense for Data to say it that way since he is suppose to be "quirky" in his manner of speech. When you watch the episode, the context is certainly the sum total of the time for the message to reach back. Nobody, except Data, would say it that way
It could be interpreted that way, although when you watch the scene it looked more obvious that he was thinking of zipping around parts of the galaxy.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s6/6x20/thechase067.jpg
On the other hand, we do know that there was an intentional shift in the TNG production to "slow things down" so that between star system travel would be slower than how it was in TOS. So for TNG, it could be argued that between system travel was probably much closer to between galaxy travel speeds.
@Black_Dranzer - thanks for the datapoint. That would mean W9.9 = roughly 58 ly / day in the Voyager series. I found another one in "Maneuvers" where Kim mentions "2 billion km/s" but no warp speed. That's roughly 18 ly / day. Even at 18 ly / day, that would translate into only a 10 year return trip vs the 70+ year quoted in "Caretaker".
