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Putting a Planet in a warp bubble

Don't forget that in the original version of "The Motion Picture", V'Ger was generating an energy (gas?) cloud that was 82 AU in diameter and the whole thing was moving along at Warp speed to Earth. The Director's Edition downsized it to 2 AU in diameter, for whatever reasons :shrug:. But the point is that in Star Trek you can have the power and technology to move something the size of a star system along at warp speed.
Why did they scale it down from 82 to 2 AU?
 
You could try to do that to a Star System that is already in place and part of a Galaxy.

Or save yourself the trouble and gather up the "Rogue Stars", "Rogue Planets", & "Rogue Black Holes".

It'd be FAR easier to manipulate those objects that are already free from Galactic Level Gravity and are largely on their own trajectory.

Then you can pilot them to gather up all the fellow "Rogue Astronomical Phenomena" and form a Star System of your choosing.

There are ALOT more of these "Rogue Astronomical Objects" out there than most people think, and they are potential hazards for existing Star Systems in the distant future.

You'd be doing society a great service by gathering them up and taking control of them.

That works too.
Of course, FINDING rogue planets would likely be more difficult because they don't tend to show up on sensors that easily.
Rogue stars might be easier to find, but then you come across the issue of 'why bother' when the UFP spans 8,000 LY's in radius.
This kind of area of space would encompass around 8.5 billion stars - which is massive - and point being, more than enough to play around with.

I think this kind of project would be useful for maybe moving a populated planet out of harm's way (would have been REALLY useful to do this in Disco S4 with the DMA).
 

How many rogue worlds are in the Milky Way?
The most recent estimation of the number of rogue planets in the Milky Way suggests there are about 20 rogue planets for every star in the galaxy. Current estimates of the number of stars in the Milky Way range from 100 billion to 400 billion. So, if we assume there are 200 billion stars in the Milky Way, which is a reasonable estimate, then there could be a whopping 4 trillion rogue planets wandering our galaxy.

In a 2022 study estimating the number of rogue worlds in the galaxy, Bennett and colleagues suggested that most of these free-floating planets are worlds with roughly the mass of Earth, or even less, rather than heavier gas giants like Jupiter and Saturn. Heavier worlds would need larger gravitational instabilities to get flung from their orbits.

"The apparent excess of very-low-mass rogue planets is what we expect from ejection from planet-planet interaction," Bennett said.

There's literally no benefit to trying to strip a Planet that has a Stable Orbit around a existing Star.

Just go to one of the Trillions of "Rogue Planets" and commandeer one of those along with "Rogue Stars" & "Rogue Black-Holes".

Just find ways of Steering them together until you form the Star System of your Dreams.

Why try to move a existing Star System that is "Stable" when you can literally "Assemble" your dream Star System.


That works too.
Of course, FINDING rogue planets would likely be more difficult because they don't tend to show up on sensors that easily.
Given Star Trek level Sensors, they should be pretty easy to find, they aren't modern day "Stealth Fighters" designed to evade detection.

They're GINORMOUS Planetary Objects.

And you have Trillions of them to pick from.

Rogue stars might be easier to find, but then you come across the issue of 'why bother' when the UFP spans 8,000 LY's in radius.
This kind of area of space would encompass around 8.5 billion stars - which is massive - and point being, more than enough to play around with.
But it's the UFP, there are probably "Astronomical Environmental Laws" that expand into space that would prefer for UFP citizens to "Not MESS with existing Stable Star Systems, Planets, Black Holes, etc."

Leave UFP space, go hunt down your own Rogue InterStellar Object, manipulate it to your benefit.

I think this kind of project would be useful for maybe moving a populated planet out of harm's way (would have been REALLY useful to do this in Disco S4 with the DMA).
But you don't move Planet's out of harm's way at the last moment, what made the DMA deadly was the random-ness of it's appearance.

There are no ways to protect from that Random Surprise Appearance.

Moving Planet's is not a quick event, it takes ALOT of time / planning.
 
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Why did they scale it down from 82 to 2 AU?

From what I understand for the Director's Edition it was scaled it down in response to commentary that 82 AU was just too fantastically big. On IMDB there is also a mention that it was scaled down so the Enterprise could cross the cloud boundary to the center at subwarp speeds in a realistic time. The reasoning seemed silly, especially to think that V'Ger, an entity generating a field 2 AU or 82 AU in diameter and coming to Earth at warp speed, is just going to drop out of warp to blast you with a plasma ball? :thumbdown:

So if you watch the theatrical version it is 82 AU where the Enterprise crosses the distance while still at warp or if you watch the director's version it is scaled down to 2 AU where the Enterprise crosses the distance at subwarp speeds.
 
From what I understand for the Director's Edition it was scaled it down in response to commentary that 82 AU was just too fantastically big. On IMDB there is also a mention that it was scaled down so the Enterprise could cross the cloud boundary to the center at subwarp speeds in a realistic time. The reasoning seemed silly, especially to think that V'Ger, an entity generating a field 2 AU or 82 AU in diameter and coming to Earth at warp speed, is just going to drop out of warp to blast you with a plasma ball? :thumbdown:

So if you watch the theatrical version it is 82 AU where the Enterprise crosses the distance while still at warp or if you watch the director's version it is scaled down to 2 AU where the Enterprise crosses the distance at subwarp speeds.
Remind me, what is an AU anyway?
 
Given Star Trek level Sensors, they should be pretty easy to find, they aren't modern day "Stealth Fighters" designed to evade detection.

They're GINORMOUS Planetary Objects.

And you have Trillions of them to pick from.

Except the fact that those sensors still find planets via most recognizable signatures.
And they're scattered across 100,000-150,000 LY's worth of space... in 3D.

Sensors have a limited range in the 24th century... even if you're trying to lock onto a planet with a big enough gravitational signature, you might not find it anytime soon.


But it's the UFP, there are probably "Astronomical Environmental Laws" that expand into space that would prefer for UFP citizens to "Not MESS with existing Stable Star Systems, Planets, Black Holes, etc."

Leave UFP space, go hunt down your own Rogue InterStellar Object, manipulate it to your benefit.

You could, but the point being is you have 8.5 billion stars in your own back yard to play with as is.
Why would you want to go outside UFP space to hunt for rogue planets or stars to make your own solar system?
Its one thing to explore and catalogue them, but its something else to make your own star system.

Mind you, it WOULD be an interesting project, and you can probably learn a lot in the process by the simple matter of doing something like that... but I'm not sure if UFP would be intricately motivated in doing this.

But you don't move Planet's out of harm's way at the last moment, what made the DMA deadly was the random-ness of it's appearance.

There are no ways to protect from that Random Surprise Appearance.

Moving Planet's is not a quick event, it takes ALOT of time / planning.

The thing is that by the 32nd century (heck, even the late 24th), planets already had planetary shield grids.
Which means that projecting a low level subspace field on top of that is more than doable since subpsace based technology is the cornerstone of Trek technology.

Queijan couldn't be saved because they didn't know what to look for at the time, but Earth and Vulcan had days of advanced warning, and other planets could have been potentially moved out of harm's way with pre-existing fleets in planetary orbits etc. because they had sufficient warning.

The trick would have been moving the planet out of range of the DMA's gravitational effects, but I do think that by the 32nd century, achieving high enough warp to do that would have been possible with 10 odd ships assigned to move a planet - and as soon you are at warp, you're moving away from it.
 
Remind me, what is an AU anyway?
The Astronomical Unit:
The astronomical unit (symbol: au[1][2][3][4] or AU) is a unit of length defined to be exactly equal to 149,597,870,700 m.[5] Historically, the astronomical unit was conceived as the average Earth-Sun distance (the average of Earth's aphelion and perihelion), before its modern redefinition in 2012.

The astronomical unit is used primarily for measuring distances within the Solar System or around other stars. It is also a fundamental component in the definition of another unit of astronomical length, the parsec.[6] One au is equivalent to 499 light-seconds to within 10 parts per million.
 
Except the fact that those sensors still find planets via most recognizable signatures.
And they're scattered across 100,000-150,000 LY's worth of space... in 3D.

Sensors have a limited range in the 24th century... even if you're trying to lock onto a planet with a big enough gravitational signature, you might not find it anytime soon.
Have you not seen Voyager's Astrometrics Lab and what it can do?

One particular example was the astrometrics lab on the USS Voyager, which was designed by Ensign Harry Kim and Seven of Nine. Incorporating Borg technology, it could "measure the radiative flux of up to three billion stars simultaneously", resulting in readings "ten times more accurate" than was previously possible
That's what Harry Kim + 7 of 9 could cobble up.

Imagine what the rest of StarFleet can come up with post Voyager with their help and spread that information across all of StarFleet.


You could, but the point being is you have 8.5 billion stars in your own back yard to play with as is.
Why would you want to go outside UFP space to hunt for rogue planets or stars to make your own solar system?
UFP Environmental Regulations that would prevent you from messing around with Stars / Planets.
Remember, they do all kinds of studies to prevent contamination of planets from UFP/StarFleet millions of years into the future.
I'm sure there are laws some where that says "Don't mess with any Astronomical Objects" that have a steady orbit, ESPECIALLY within UFP territory.

Its one thing to explore and catalogue them, but its something else to make your own star system.
Exactly, only a "Mad Scientist" would care about doing that.
We have TC here who wants to put a Warp Bubble around a Planet.
If he has the resources to pull that off (That's Governmental Level resources) for the scale necessary to accomplish it.

It would be best to do it outside of UFP jurisdiction to minimize interference.


Mind you, it WOULD be an interesting project, and you can probably learn a lot in the process by the simple matter of doing something like that... but I'm not sure if UFP would be intricately motivated in doing this.
In fact, I think UFP would send "StarFleet" to stop you if they ever found out about it.

The thing is that by the 32nd century (heck, even the late 24th), planets already had planetary shield grids.
Which means that projecting a low level subspace field on top of that is more than doable since subpsace based technology is the cornerstone of Trek technology.
True, but why would they want to move stable planets?

Queijan couldn't be saved because they didn't know what to look for at the time, but Earth and Vulcan had days of advanced warning, and other planets could have been potentially moved out of harm's way with pre-existing fleets in planetary orbits etc. because they had sufficient warning.
But the amount of energy needed to create Warp Bubbles that large is CRAZY, you would have to have every planet "Ready" with a Satellite Network with immense reactors and Warp Field Emitters.
That's the kind of work that you need to create Orbital Defense Grids or a fleet ot StarShips.
That doesn't happen "Over Night", that takes YEARS of planning to setup.

The DMA hit suddenly, you can't just move a planet on a weeks notice.

The trick would have been moving the planet out of range of the DMA's gravitational effects, but I do think that by the 32nd century, achieving high enough warp to do that would have been possible with 10 odd ships assigned to move a planet - and as soon you are at warp, you're moving away from it.
They barely had enough energy due to "The Burn" with their Dilithium Crisis.

They didn't have the Fleet of Ships that StarFleet used to have.

There was no way that StarFleet could pull it off in their weakened state.

If it was "Pre-Burn StarFleet" at their apex, I can see it happening.

Not when they were so WEAK as they were after "The Burn".

How did this become a unit of measure anyway?
Read the Wikipedia Link I gave you.
 
Have you not seen Voyager's Astrometrics Lab and what it can do?

Yes, I've seen Voy multiple times and am well versed in the technology and its capabilities.

That's what Harry Kim + 7 of 9 could cobble up.

Imagine what the rest of StarFleet can come up with post Voyager with their help and spread that information across all of StarFleet.
The thing is that measuring radiative flux of 3 billion stars in the galaxy simultaneously is just 1 thing for ascertaining the vessels POSITION in the galaxy.

We have no way of ascertaining if this method would work on rogue planets because Stars and planets are different stellar bodies.

Stars emit massive radiation and gravitational forces (and likely subspace signatures in Trek)... planets have their own gravitational fields, but they are nowhere near on the level of a star in terms of potential noticeability.

To be fair, I do think SF could do WONDERS with this technology post VOY return... they could do a million different things, and it would probably barely scratch the surface... the problem is that it seems it was never actually implemented in such a fashion.

Oh and as useful Astrometric sensors have been on VOY, they still had issues finding human lifesigns only a few LY's away in Workforce - and they had to be adjusted and modified over several DAYS to find them.

UFP Environmental Regulations that would prevent you from messing around with Stars / Planets.
Remember, they do all kinds of studies to prevent contamination of planets from UFP/StarFleet millions of years into the future.
I'm sure there are laws some where that says "Don't mess with any Astronomical Objects" that have a steady orbit, ESPECIALLY within UFP territory.

I wouldn't be that sure. Its possible some uninhabited star systems in UFP space could be designated for research purposes where you could do stuff on this scale... of course getting PERMISSION to do that, is a different thing.

Exactly, only a "Mad Scientist" would care about doing that.
We have TC here who wants to put a Warp Bubble around a Planet.
If he has the resources to pull that off (That's Governmental Level resources) for the scale necessary to accomplish it.

It would be best to do it outside of UFP jurisdiction to minimize interference.

Yes, but you'd have to travel far enough away to not unintentionally interfere with another interstellar power's authority.
If they see you playing with a star system or planetary bodies in that fashion close enough to their space... then they would probably blow you out of the sky for doing that - and of course, being outside UFP space, removes the protection.

In fact, I think UFP would send "StarFleet" to stop you if they ever found out about it.
Probably.
True, but why would they want to move stable planets?

There are a few potential reasons. They probably move asteroids for certain mining operations from one location to the next... if a planet by chance contains more resources than an asteroid (which is ridiculously implausible in RL, but seemingly plausible in Trek), then that could be a reason to move it closer to your processing facilities if the distance is large, or to avoid potential conflicts in case diplomacy fails?
Or you'd just want to experiment to see if you can move a planet and what you can learn from the endeavour.

But the amount of energy needed to create Warp Bubbles that large is CRAZY, you would have to have every planet "Ready" with a Satellite Network with immense reactors and Warp Field Emitters.
That's the kind of work that you need to create Orbital Defense Grids or a fleet ot StarShips.
That doesn't happen "Over Night", that takes YEARS of planning to setup.
I disagree.
Since Earth (for example) in the 32nd century already has a network of satellites in orbit powerful enough to erect a planetary shield (which also requires massive levels of power), those satellites would be powerful enough to generate a subspace field instead that can act as a warp bubble.

Like I said, the underlying technology is pre-built into the things, its a matter of switching from one mode to the other.
And they already HAD a fleet of ships in Earth's orbit... remember? Earth had its own vessels when it left UFP, and UFP also sent ships to evac Earth.

The DMA hit suddenly, you can't just move a planet on a weeks notice.

It wasn't that sudden. They had days of advance warning by the time Earth and Ni'Var were in projected to be in danger.

They barely had enough energy due to "The Burn" with their Dilithium Crisis.

They didn't have the Fleet of Ships that StarFleet used to have.

There was no way that StarFleet could pull it off in their weakened state.

If it was "Pre-Burn StarFleet" at their apex, I can see it happening.

Not when they were so WEAK as they were after "The Burn".

Honestly, we both know a lot of the stuff in the 32nd century isn't working as its supposed to... because it also IGNORES a lot of the stuff from the 24th century or just hand-waved it away.

By the time the DMA presented itself as an issue, the Dilithium Crisis was mostly averted and things were starting to get back to 'normal'.
Regardless, we know that 32nd century ships are incredibly fragile though... even more so than their 23rd/24th century counterparts it seems.
 
Yes, I've seen Voy multiple times and am well versed in the technology and its capabilities.


The thing is that measuring radiative flux of 3 billion stars in the galaxy simultaneously is just 1 thing for ascertaining the vessels POSITION in the galaxy.

We have no way of ascertaining if this method would work on rogue planets because Stars and planets are different stellar bodies.
But I'm sure they have equally impressive ways of detecting astronomical sized objects within Astrometrics that far exceeds anything we have today.


Stars emit massive radiation and gravitational forces (and likely subspace signatures in Trek)... planets have their own gravitational fields, but they are nowhere near on the level of a star in terms of potential noticeability.

To be fair, I do think SF could do WONDERS with this technology post VOY return... they could do a million different things, and it would probably barely scratch the surface... the problem is that it seems it was never actually implemented in such a fashion.
Only because the limits of the existing writing staff.


Oh and as useful Astrometric sensors have been on VOY, they still had issues finding human lifesigns only a few LY's away in Workforce - and they had to be adjusted and modified over several DAYS to find them.
Finding a specific type of Life-Sign in a city filled with millions of Life-Signs could be hard if everybody was "Near Human".
Finding that exact signature might prove hard.

Especially with people going in/out of buildings and the signal to noise ratio must be terrible.


I wouldn't be that sure. Its possible some uninhabited star systems in UFP space could be designated for research purposes where you could do stuff on this scale... of course getting PERMISSION to do that, is a different thing.
Within the UFP, I doubt you would get permission given what TC wants to do. There would be millions of questions, along with simulations of potential consequences.
The sheer Red Tape would kill the project.

Yes, but you'd have to travel far enough away to not unintentionally interfere with another interstellar power's authority.
If they see you playing with a star system or planetary bodies in that fashion close enough to their space... then they would probably blow you out of the sky for doing that - and of course, being outside UFP space, removes the protection.
That's why you have to spelunk and find it, I'm sure there are Rogue Planets out there that aren't near any existing major powers.

Hell, in ST:ENT, they had a episode on a Rogue Planet.


Probably.
If they knew what you were up to, and think it could endanger lives, especially UFP lives or start a war.
They'd send in StarFleet to stop your progress. They've sent StarFleet for lesser reasons.


There are a few potential reasons. They probably move asteroids for certain mining operations from one location to the next... if a planet by chance contains more resources than an asteroid (which is ridiculously implausible in RL, but seemingly plausible in Trek), then that could be a reason to move it closer to your processing facilities if the distance is large, or to avoid potential conflicts in case diplomacy fails?
Or you'd just want to experiment to see if you can move a planet and what you can learn from the endeavour.
Moving Asteroids and moving objects that are considered a "Planet" would be seperate things.

As long as the Astronomical Objects surpass the "Potato Radius" (A approximate radii of 200-300 km) and move into Dwarf Planet territory, I'm sure there are Stellar Enivoronmental Laws that would minimize/prevent the "Strip Mining" of planets.
Given the natural abundance of Asteroids, there really is no reason to "Strip Mine" planets unless there are no other solutions.


I disagree.
Since Earth (for example) in the 32nd century already has a network of satellites in orbit powerful enough to erect a planetary shield (which also requires massive levels of power), those satellites would be powerful enough to generate a subspace field instead that can act as a warp bubble.
Most Offensive/Defensive Satellites wouldn't have Warp Nacelles or Warp Field Emitters built into them by default.
They aren't StarShips. Putting those features in adds cost/maintenance complexities that aren't necessary.
They would need to be fit with Warp Field Emitters from the out-set and be planned for it.

Could you make a Satellite Network that creates a Warp Bubble, yes, of course. But you would need to do that from the outset.
Most Planetary Shield or Turret Satellites wouldn't have any FTL capabilities and would divert most of their energy resources to Shields, Weapons, & Sensors.


Like I said, the underlying technology is pre-built into the things, its a matter of switching from one mode to the other.
And they already HAD a fleet of ships in Earth's orbit... remember? Earth had its own vessels when it left UFP, and UFP also sent ships to evac Earth.
The Fleet size we saw isn't large enough to create that size of Warp Bubble, we're talking Planetary Scales.
And the Defense Grid is just that, a Shield Grid & Turrets.

It wasn't that sudden. They had days of advance warning by the time Earth and Ni'Var were in projected to be in danger.
And that's not enough time to erect the type of Warp Bubble Emitting Satellite Shield.
That's a LONG TERM, many years project.

That's not something you deploy like a Safety Blanket.


Honestly, we both know a lot of the stuff in the 32nd century isn't working as its supposed to... because it also IGNORES a lot of the stuff from the 24th century or just hand-waved it away.
That's a seperate conversation that we can go down a rabbit hole, but that's not relevant to the current discussion.

By the time the DMA presented itself as an issue, the Dilithium Crisis was mostly averted and things were starting to get back to 'normal'.
Regardless, we know that 32nd century ships are incredibly fragile though... even more so than their 23rd/24th century counterparts it seems.
They were in the beginning stages, and the fleet size wasn't any where near what it used to be, along with the man power.

32nd Century Ships seem to be designed around a principle of "Programmable Matter" is our universal stucco patch, so we'll use it to fit everything quickly instead of having a more durable hull / shell from the outset.
It takes more time to arrange a more durable hull / shell, but I think it's worth it.

"Programmable Matter" will never be as strong as real Solid Matter & Armor, it's good for "Patch Work" solutions, but it's not a replacement for solid engineering & structural toughness.

But that's a matter of design philosophy & resource availability.

They might not have a choice on what kind of ships they could build due to lack of member worlds compared to what they used to have.
 
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