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Wait... was TNG racist?

Destructor

Commodore
Commodore
Was just having a convo with a friend on twitter when she threw out that TNG was racist. I asked her to back that statement up (because I guess I figured that TNG was very much not racist) and she said:

The manner in which they represent the races is cliched and borders on offensive = racism e.g. Geordie : african "blindman" cliche, Worf : primal, sexual, aggressive, struggles to control himself.

I guess I can kind of see the Worf thing (although he's meant to be an alien!), but Geordi, a cliche? Really? I've never heard this before, I always saw Geordi as very much removed from a cliched black man. :cardie:

Is there such a thing as an 'African Blind Man' cliche? And if so, do you think Geordi was an example of that? Has Burton ever commented on the character in this light? Would be interested hearing any thoughts on this, be they pro or con.
 
People will dig up race as an issue whenever they wish, no matter how off-base their accusations are. I'd pretty much ignore that.
 
People can see 'racism' or 'bigotry' or 'intolerance' in anything. Just because something can be interpreted one way doesn't mean that's the way it was intended.

For example, I could tell you, "You look better than you did yesterday." Now, either I meant you looked depressed/ill/sad yesterday or I meant you were sloppy, unkempt, and dressed in an unflattering way yesterday. Which one is true? The one I meant, not the one you felt I meant.

No, I don't think TNG is racist. Anymore than it's prejudiced against women drivers. Do you know how many times Troi crashed the ship?
 
Heh. I like that emoticon. In all seriousness, the thesis presented is not all that convincing. While an interesting conversation could be had about Worf (and the Klingon culture as it was developed beginning with TNG), the critique of Geordi being a blind African stereotype strikes me as silly.

I don't think Burton has ever expressed any problems with the racial implication of the role. Indeed, I've heard him express opinions to the country quite often. It's certainly a much more interesting role than, say, Travis Mayweather, who is excluded to the edges of the frame so often that he would hardly count as a series regular if not for his name in the credits.
 
People can see 'racism' or 'bigotry' or 'intolerance' in anything. Just because something can be interpreted one way doesn't mean that's the way it was intended.

For example, I could tell you, "You look better than you did yesterday." Now, either I meant you looked depressed/ill/sad yesterday or I meant you were sloppy, unkempt, and dressed in an unflattering way yesterday. Which one is true? The one I meant, not the one you felt I meant.

No, I don't think TNG is racist. Anymore than it's prejudiced against women drivers. Do you know how many times Troi crashed the ship?

You beat me to the punch. Not only can something mean something else (beauty, meet the eye of the beholder), but intent becomes an issue, too.

I would argue that if TNG is racist (and that's a big if), it's unintentionally so and whatever racism that's there is a product of its time. Racism that no one would see until well after the fact, in a form of institutionalized racism. Therefore, not necessarily the fault of the crew, but as an effect of society at the time.

In the case of Geordi, it might be racist to show a handicapped black man, but rare was it back then to show a black man so talented and intelligent -- and did so without the aid of outside white influence, ie Gunn in "Angel." Then again, I doubt Levar Burton -- Kunte Kinte himself -- would have accepted the role if there was a hint of racism, intended or not, towards the character.

As for Worf, let's remember that most if not all Klingons in the 60s were played by white actors (though arguably in semi-yellowface, which would defeat the purpose of this point), but just a couple years before Worf, Christopher Lloyd played a much more savage, much more brutal, and downright evil Klingon.

So are Geordi and Worf racist creations? Survey says no.
 
In the case of Geordi, it might be racist to show a handicapped black man, but rare was it back then to show a black man so talented and intelligent -- and did so without the aid of outside white influence, ie Gunn in “Angel.”
Indeed, one would really have to twist one's mind into a pretzel to find any racism in the character of Geordi, a blind black man who was portrayed as a skilled and competent Starfleet officer. Would it have been less “racist” to have him selling pencils or owning a newsstand?
As for Worf, let's remember that most if not all Klingons in the 60s were played by white actors (though arguably in semi-yellowface, which would defeat the purpose of this point) . . .
“Semi-yellowface” implies that the Klingons are supposed to be Asians, or quasi-Asians, or sort-of-like Asians. Of course, they're not of any Earth race or ethnicity. They're a fictional people from a fictional interstellar empire. That's the great thing about Star Trek aliens -- an actor of any race can play a Klingon, a Romulan, a Vulcan, whatever. All they need is the appropriate facial prosthetics.
 
I find this a very strange viewpoint.

"TNG was racist"? Not in the slightest.

"because the helmsman/chief engineer was blind and black"? Err, no.

Where is your friend from Destructor?
 
as people always assume. you pull the racist card, you win every argument. except that logic is flawed...
 
As for Worf, let's remember that most if not all Klingons in the 60s were played by white actors (though arguably in semi-yellowface, which would defeat the purpose of this point) . . .
“Semi-yellowface” implies that the Klingons are supposed to be Asians, or quasi-Asians, or sort-of-like Asians. Of course, they're not of any Earth race or ethnicity. They're a fictional people from a fictional interstellar empire. That's the great thing about Star Trek aliens -- an actor of any race can play a Klingon, a Romulan, a Vulcan, whatever. All they need is the appropriate facial prosthetics.

The same could be argued for Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon since he's not human, but most everyone agrees that at least the most popular incarnation of Ming is a very racist creation. And whatever one's beliefs are in Code of Honor, both arguments are rooted in the fact that the native population is very visibly black, despite being non-Humans.

Now, would I necessarily blame TOS? Back then Asians as a whole were considered the enemy. The Korean War was still fresh in people's minds, there was trepidation in dealing with Japanese companies, China semi-recently became a communist power right next to the USSR, the US had immigration quotas for Asian countries, and Vietnam was already making news. As with TNG, I don't blame the writers but the atmosphere at the time (however, if TOS resorted to racial slurs, then yeah, there would be a problem. Even some of McCoy's banter with Spock would raise some eyebrows today, even though they were two sides of a coin).

And to be honest with you, I can see where people are coming from in connecting the Ferengi and Jewish stereotypes, but thankfully DS9 helped overturn some of those arguments. While I may or may not agree with their arguments, I still feel like I would have to acknowledge it in some way and not automatically dismiss it, but discuss it.

as people always assume. you pull the racist card, you win every argument.

Not really, no. One reason to argue is to get people on your side, and pulling the race card doesn't do that very often. With society trying to be post-racial, there's something ironic with being politically correct; while intentions are good in trying to eliminate racial divisions, we also lose sight of what makes humanity diverse and thus equally important in each way. I feel that while this thread might not warrant it, pulling the race card is sometimes (oftentimes) valid for shining a light on something that wasn't perceived as a problem before. It kills me that these days, bringing up some sort of injustice is quickly perceived as "pulling the race card," because then it implies a laziness to productively discuss all topics that would surround it: what qualifies as racism, how far have we come when dealing with racism, can minorities sabotage any advancements, etc. etc.

So perhaps the OP isn't the best way to have racial dialogue, but racial dialogue is good for growth. And I would prefer that dialogue not to be divisive, but to bring both sides to the table in a civil way -- few people these days strive to be racists, so it's best to approach any discussion as if both sides want to understand where the other is coming from.

Now, having said that, I must reiterate that no, I don't think TNG was racist.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that there are at least three notable Blind Black musicians: Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and d'Arnault from My Antonia. And yet, when we think of Black musicians as a whole, in our minds we tend to think of musicians that are otherwise perfectly healthy. While Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder are indeed forces to be reckoned with, we also think of people like Marvin Gaye, Alicia Keyes, Aretha Franklin, et all. So I'm quite skeptical of being blind and black as some sort of stereotype (though one could argue that we should see more handi-capable people on TV, but that's really a topic for another day. Knowledge of one subject leads to another subject to another subject... thanks, Wiki!).
 
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TNG was responsible for the Ferengi-- who are probably the most blatantly racist creation in all of Star Trek.

But I don't think that, or any other smattering of examples you may find, are enough to qualify the show as being "generally racist."
 
TNG was responsible for the Ferengi-- who are probably the most blatantly racist creation in all of Star Trek.

But I don't think that, or any other smattering of examples you may find, are enough to qualify the show as being "generally racist."

"The Ferengi are racist"? Really? To people with big ears? I just don't get it. Obviously people can see what they like in anything.

Cyke101 mentions the "post-racial society" and I agree, we should move past these silly comparisons.

Something I see on here time and again is "Code Of Honor... Racist... planet full of stupid black people..". Would it have been racist had the planet been filled with stupid white people? Was it racist when the first Europeans landed in West Africa and found a land full of *shock* black people? If someone is stupid it is because they are stupid, not because they are black or white.

Move past it. I hope my children will be of the first generation that can move past all this nonsense.
 
Cyke101 mentions the "post-racial society" and I agree, we should move past these silly comparisons.

I don't mean to get onto a soapbox (and feel free to vaporize that box if you need to), but comparisons are inevitable. Moving past negative comparisons is one thing, but talking about positive comparisons is something else entirely, something I think Trek has done pretty well. I quite liked The Next Phase (which was just on recently) when Worf and Data were comparing funeral traditions of different cultures, and Worf -- the big "brute" in the OP-- was Data's rather effective and knowledgeable teacher.

Speaking for myself (and certainly not AT anyone in this thread), the last thing I'd want when people say post-racial is a purely homogenous society. When I say post-racial, I mean knowing there are differences, acknowledging them, and learning and celebrating with it. Even tolerance isn't enough because the word tolerance implies that there's something one would have to get over despite discomfort. What we see is just is, nothing bad about it.
 
the last thing I'd want when people say post-racial is a purely homogenous society. When I say post-racial, I mean knowing there are differences, acknowledging them, and learning and celebrating with it. Even tolerance isn't enough because the word tolerance implies that there's something one would have to get over despite discomfort. What we see is just is, nothing bad about it.

Spot on. We have an analogy in the UK about salad bowls and melting pots. Have you heard of this? It is generally accepted that the salad bowl option is the better as this recognises and celebrates our different cultures and traditions, rather than homogenising them.
 
the last thing I'd want when people say post-racial is a purely homogenous society. When I say post-racial, I mean knowing there are differences, acknowledging them, and learning and celebrating with it. Even tolerance isn't enough because the word tolerance implies that there's something one would have to get over despite discomfort. What we see is just is, nothing bad about it.

Spot on. We have an analogy in the UK about salad bowls and melting pots. Have you heard of this? It is generally accepted that the salad bowl option is the better as this recognises and celebrates our different cultures and traditions, rather than homogenising them.

Thanks :)

Here in the US, we're still rather fond (proud, even) of the melting pot imagery, but only lately have more and more people begun to question it in any kind of racial discourse. I haven't heard many people use the salad bowl analogy, but I rather like the sound, or at least the intent, of that.
 
What hogwash. I'm surprised that this person didn't use Guinan's position as a bartender as a trump card, for their misplaced argument
 
The casting was slightly racist in that ethnicity other than caucasian and afro-carribean were relatively rare, which isn't very representative of the world. However, Geordi was a blind engineer who happened to be black. Race wasn't an issue at all. There is an interesting memo article on trekmovie.com with details of the actors who were considered for each role and it's comforting to see that the lists are multi-ethnic for each character. I might have been nice to Roaslind Chao as Tasha for example.

TNG was definitely and more consistently sexist but racist far less so.
 
Was just having a convo with a friend on twitter when she threw out that TNG was racist. I asked her to back that statement up (because I guess I figured that TNG was very much not racist) and she said:

The manner in which they represent the races is cliched and borders on offensive = racism e.g. Geordie : african "blindman" cliche, Worf : primal, sexual, aggressive, struggles to control himself.
I guess I can kind of see the Worf thing (although he's meant to be an alien!), but Geordi, a cliche? Really? I've never heard this before, I always saw Geordi as very much removed from a cliched black man. :cardie:

Is there such a thing as an 'African Blind Man' cliche? And if so, do you think Geordi was an example of that? Has Burton ever commented on the character in this light? Would be interested hearing any thoughts on this, be they pro or con.
The 'it's racist to show a blind black man' is a hilariously absurd argument.

Maybe you should give your friend a dose of her own PC medicine, and tell her that she's discriminating against blind people.

"So what is wrong with Geordi being blind? Are you saying that this makes him inferior? Do you have something against blind people?"

Then watch her squirm. :devil:

the last thing I'd want when people say post-racial is a purely homogenous society. When I say post-racial, I mean knowing there are differences, acknowledging them, and learning and celebrating with it. Even tolerance isn't enough because the word tolerance implies that there's something one would have to get over despite discomfort. What we see is just is, nothing bad about it.

Spot on. We have an analogy in the UK about salad bowls and melting pots. Have you heard of this? It is generally accepted that the salad bowl option is the better as this recognises and celebrates our different cultures and traditions, rather than homogenising them.
I haven't heard of the salad bowl comparison before, but 'salad bowl' and 'melting pot' are analogous to the concepts of integration and assimilation, respectively. (The third option is the version of multiculturalism in which, while there are multiple cultures in the society, the cultures don't mix, everyone keeps to themselves.)
 
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