Underworld: Was Kraven a Hero?

[Roger Wilco]

Ok, this was mostly a drunken thought I had last night after watching Underworld 1-3 for the first time with some friends, and I might not have sobered up completely yet, so it may be nonsense, but hear me out:

- Clearly in the Underworld story, the lycans are the good guys, and the vampires are the bad guys, which is strange considering much of the story focuses on the vampires. But basically the lycans are noble freedom fighters portrayed as loyal friends, bravely laying down their lives for their comrades to escape slavery and oppression. All they want is to be left alone, and they aren't even that bad to humans for the most part. Lucian was basically fucking Spartacus.

- Vampires on the other hand are tyrannical despots, who don't give a shit about humans or anyone else. They are slaveholders, cold blooded murderers, even genocidal fanatics, and who knows what else.

- So then the question arises, why is it supposed to be a bad thing that Kraven cooperates with Lucian to take over the coven? Are we supposed to feel fucking sorry for Victor, Markus and Amelia? Why?
So fucking what if he's a "traitor" if the ultimate goal is peace?

Even Selena is a fundamentalist who seems to value Omerta above what's right. So she's horny and likes humping Michael, is that supposed to be a more noble motivation than wishing for power like Kraven does? Ghandi was a politician too, as was MLK. Are we supposed to be mad at Mandela for being so "self interested" to become president of South Africa? Was Yitzhak Rabin a traitor for trying to make peace with the Palestianians?

Of course Kraven was self-interested and arrogant, and tried to safe his life in the end by betraying Lucian, but that's when the oh-so-good Selena had already undermined his attempt at striking a grand bargain for peace with the Lycans and he had become desperate. How many lives did Selena cost by playing fucking Sherlock Holmes?

In my opinion thus Kraven is the true hero of the story, a flawed hero to be sure, but a hero nonetheless. He wanted to do the right thing, risked everything he had for peace, and without lovely fucking Selena causing unspeakable damage, destruction, death and chaos he would have succeeded. Tell me again, why I should support Selena, please? (except for her shapely butt)

 

[Kemaiku]

Okay I was going to write a page or two on this but simply *no*.

Kraven was a vain, arrogent prick that planned to murder the strongest of his kind and place himself on the thrown for a bit more wine and pussy. Literally. That's all he was there to do in the story was set up the assassination of the council.

His character has no backstory besides a cowardly crawl up through the ranks in Viktor's shadow. He amounted to nothing, he accomplished nothing, he was nothing.

He sold out every person in his way, even slaying the mighty Lucian over a squabble, because he didn't want to get dirty/hurt in his own massive bloody coup.

He was and still is, the greatest prick in the franchise, the most one dimensional of a cast of rather plain ordinary, unexceptional characters.

The only thought I casually throw his characters way is that Marcus should have done far, far worse to him.

And if you haven't watched the Fourth film yet I'll spoil this much for you, when Humans become the third side in the war in 2003, we slaugher without mercy for no reason other than "OMG FREAKZ!" and come off as far worse than the other two.

 

[Roger Wilco]

All Selena wanted was some dick. Why should we forget her being a merciless murderer for centuries just over that? And isn't her betrayal of Victor far worse than Kraven's?

What really matter imo is the result. Kraven suceeding would have brought peace, Selena's victory brought nothing but catastrophe.

 

[Kemaiku]

She had sex once, and only once, in 630+ years, some woman issues you want to share with us?

And since even that was only to set up Eve's birth for the 4th movie it more than served the plot.


And whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

Kraven destroyed the leadership holding the Covens and Dens together, without the Elders and Lucian the two dissolved into utter choas and exposed themselves to the world.

Two years after Kravens coup, the population of both immortal species was wiped out by 90% by the Humans.

The remaining 10 before SELENE (spell her fucking name right) saw the Vampires huddle in the sewers for dear life away from the sunlight with what was left of the 23 Regional Elders taking care of them, they lose whatever capability and knowledge they have to fight and become cowards huddling in the dark.

The Lycans revert to their generation 1 state unable to become Human again and turn into overgrown rats that can't hunt or feed themselves becoming skeletal disease ridden shadows of their former selves. The lycan youth of the world gather together after the First Great Purge and try to fight for Lycan Rights from the Humans only to be slaughtered in cold blood in, wait for it, the Second Great Purge.

Kraven threw both races to the mercy of Humanity without leadership and any defenses and both have been mercilessly wiped out so that maybe 200 of each exist anymore.

That's fucked up and cold hearted on a level not even Viktor himself was ever capable of.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Well, I haven's seen part 4 yet, so I can't comment on that. Anyway that's only because Selene thwarted his plans. Without Selena's interference Kraven would lead the vamps and Lucian would still lead the lycans. With everybody living happily ever after.

 

[Kemaiku]

Lucian was never planning on allowing Kraven to live, as soon as he had Amelia and Michael's blood he was going to become the first hybrid, kill both Viktor and Kraven in one fell swoop and claim leadership of both races for himself.

What would have happened then is anyone's guess, but Lucian had a streak of naivety that was dangerous. He probably thought that once he had enough of his loyal lieutenants like Raze were hybrids too that they could "come out" and Humanity wouldn't be in a position to stop them.

However as we see in the fourth film, that would have also lead to their mass slaughter.

Either way, the status quo was the only thing keeping them both alive. Killing Amelia and Viktor and placing Marcus on the thrown by an internal coup would have worked better, and with William released and carefully exposed to Generation 2 Lycan blood to allow him to become Human, taking the thrown with Marcus, would have worked out a hell of a lot better. The two first creatures leading a united immortal kind.

 

[Greg Cox]

She had sex once, and only once, in 630+ years, some woman issues you want to share with us?

It's funny. Back when I was writing the UW books, I had to decide for myself whether Selene was a virgin or not. I eventually concluded that she had probably had some casual encounters over the course of centuries, but never anything serious until Michael came along.

It just didn't seem realistic that a vampire would be celibate for five hundred years!

 

[Kemaiku]

She had sex once, and only once, in 630+ years, some woman issues you want to share with us?

It's funny. Back when I was writing the UW books, I had to decide for myself whether Selene was a virgin or not. I eventually concluded that she had probably had some casual encounters over the course of centuries, but never anything serious until Michael came along.

It just didn't seem realistic that a vampire would be celibate for five hundred years!

I know, and I've read all the books now the last few weeks and came to the same conclusion, at least in the expanded universe view.

But so far as the film canon of 1-3 go it seems she's not really shared herself with anyone that we see. All I'm saying is, a crass reduction of her character to being an all out slut for having one loving relationship and one night's sex in the second film after centuries of very little of that kind of thing is just ridiculous. I've rarely seen Roger make that kind of remark, drunk or not.

 

[Greg Cox]

She had sex once, and only once, in 630+ years, some woman issues you want to share with us?

It's funny. Back when I was writing the UW books, I had to decide for myself whether Selene was a virgin or not. I eventually concluded that she had probably had some casual encounters over the course of centuries, but never anything serious until Michael came along.

It just didn't seem realistic that a vampire would be celibate for five hundred years!

I know, and I've read all the books now the last few weeks and came to the same conclusion, at least in the expanded universe view.

But so far as the film canon of 1-3 go it seems she's not really shared herself with anyone that we see. .

Certainly, not emotionally. One gets the impression that she's been a cold-blooded killing machine for most of her undead existence--and only starts to question her priorities around the time of the first movie.

 

[Kemaiku]

Certainly, not emotionally. One gets the impression that she's been a cold-blooded killing machine for most of her undead existence--and only starts to question her priorities around the time of the first movie.

Exactly, she's essentially an asexual inhuman thing for a lot of her existance, whereas Kraven is her polar opposite in nearly every way.

Just not getting my head around the idea that Kraven could be the hero of the piece, since he got them all killed, and himself.

 

[Greg Cox]

Certainly, not emotionally. One gets the impression that she's been a cold-blooded killing machine for most of her undead existence--and only starts to question her priorities around the time of the first movie.

Exactly, she's essentially an asexual inhuman thing for a lot of her existance, whereas Kraven is her polar opposite in nearly every way.

Just not getting my head around the idea that Kraven could be the hero of the piece, since he got them all killed, and himself.

To be fair, trying to figure out who the "good guys" are in the first UW is pretty much a lost cause. Viktor is corrupt, Kraven is a weasel, and even Lucian is perfectly willing to slaughter guiltless humans to get his revenge. And poor Michael is the innocent abroad who gets caught up in an ancient blood feud.

 

[Roger Wilco]

But so far as the film canon of 1-3 go it seems she's not really shared herself with anyone that we see. All I'm saying is, a crass reduction of her character to being an all out slut for having one loving relationship and one night's sex in the second film after centuries of very little of that kind of thing is just ridiculous. I've rarely seen Roger make that kind of remark, drunk or not.

I'm not saying she's a slut, I just meant that love is her driving motivation in the movies, I just phrased it a little crudely.

eta: my point was, that she's in this for selfish reasons also. She didn't make a conscious decision that "hey, those wolves aren't so bad, maybe they should be allowed to live after all".

 

[Kemaiku]

To be fair, trying to figure out who the "good guys" are in the first UW is pretty much a lost cause. Viktor is corrupt, Kraven is a weasel, and even Lucian is perfectly willing to slaughter guiltless humans to get his revenge. And poor Michael is the innocent abroad who gets caught up in an ancient blood feud.

Good point. Nearly everyone is a villain, and most of them get whats coming to them by the end of it. Selene was being manipulated, not innocent but not pursuing her goal in full possession of the facts, she has a chance at redemption through Michael and Eve, and I think that's going to be a strong underlying theme in 4-6.

I'm not saying she's a slut, I just meant that love is her driving motivation in the movies, I just phrased it a little crudely.

It's the first time in 600 years she's known love, and more than likely the first time ever in even longer that it's been romantic love, her entire world has been turned upside down and both her real and adopted families are dead, Michael is literally all she has, that's not the best time to judge someone's actions.

 

[Caligula]

All Selena wanted was some dick. Why should we forget her being a merciless murderer for centuries just over that? And isn't her betrayal of Victor far worse than Kraven's?

What really matter imo is the result. Kraven suceeding would have brought peace, Selena's victory brought nothing but catastrophe.

The biggest difference between Selene and Kraven is that Selene killed as a Death Dealer because she'd been made to believe it was right. Kraven did the things he did to serve his own agenda. He was helping Lucian behind the scenes, all the while pretending he'd killed him. He helped the lycans kill Amelia, one of the vampire elders. He tried to sway Selene to side with him, not because he had any true feelings for her but because it would be to his strategic advantage. He finally did kill Lucian as soon as their alliance no longer served any purpose. He lured Viktor into a fight with Selene that got Viktor and many other vampires and lycans killed. Kraven's lust for power brought both sides of the war to their knees and led to their eventual exposure to the humans, who went about hunting them down and forcing those who weren't killed into hiding. That's pretty fucked up, and not heroic in the least.

And as for Selene's betrayal of Viktor, let's not forget that Viktor was a bastard who mercilessly killed Selene's entire family (among countless other families over the centuries), only to turn her because she reminded him of her daughter. This was the same daughter he had condemned to death by sunlight, whose only crime was falling in love Lucian. Viktor hated the idea of cross-breeding between vampires and lycans that much. That's a special level of Evil. Selene was right to turn against him, and he gets no sympathy from me.

It's true that the end result of all these characters' actions is important. If Lucian's plan to bring to light the geneological link between vampires and lycans (thus promoting cross-breeding) had been realized to its fullest potential, there's every possibility that there could have been peace between the races but, as long as there was Kraven in the way thinking of himself as the future leader of his vampire coven, it was never going to happen. Kraven's actions are what brought forth chaos for the vampires and the lycans, not Selene's. In this way, Kraven was as much of a villain (if not moreso) than Viktor.

 

[Kemaiku]

Well okay you said it better.

 

[Greg Cox]

Basically, Selene is the hero of the first movie because she's brave and loyal and thinks she's doing the right thing, that the lycans are just vile beasts who killed her human family. She's a misguided heroine, who only gradually comes to realize that things are bit more complicated than that.

This makes her a lot more sympathetic than the likes of Kraven, who just seems to be a scheming opportunist. (I think it was Danny McBride who described Kraven as a guy who is stuck in middle-management forever because his bosses will never die or retire, which is the real reason he wants to get rid of the Elders. It's all about his personal advancement!)

 

[Roger Wilco]

Heh, ok, I'll admit defeat, thanks for the answers, especially Greg.

 

[Deckerd]

Good discussion Wilco, thanks.

 

[Kemaiku]

Danny McBride who described Kraven as a guy who is stuck in middle-management forever because his bosses will never die or retire, which is the real reason he wants to get rid of the Elders. It's all about his personal advancement!

Which is even more unfortunate in the extended cut and the fourth film, which tell us there are many more "Elders", that Kraven was created too late to be given one of the smaller covens.

Guy just never catches a break.

 

[paudemge]

I kinda figured it was the death of Alexander Corvinus that eventually lead to the discovery of vampires and lycans, he wasn't around cleaning up there messes anymore.