Torchwood Sucks

[Bob The Skutter]

She's a chav. Anyone who's actually from Britain would tell you that. But then, that wasn't what I was getting at.

I wouldn't say she's a chav. She didn't act at all like a chav, for one thing she worked and didn't hang around on street corners getting pissed and intimidating people.

 

[Starkers]

She's a chav. Anyone who's actually from Britain would tell you that. But then, that wasn't what I was getting at.

I wouldn't say she's a chav. She didn't act at all like a chav, for one thing she worked and didn't hang around on street corners getting pissed and intimidating people.

It won't matter Bob, Bones is set in his ways he isn't going to change. He's taking Rose as a chav on the basis that she's working class and don't talk proper. She doesn't dress like a chav or act like a chav in any appreciable way; where's the bling, where's the really dubious fashion sense?

Now Jackie, it might be argued, is a chav (or at least more of a chav than Rose) but Rose is just a teenaged girl.

 

[Pindar]

No one's effectively countered them, so it is as simple as that in a sense.

I maintain it's a flawed plot with a DEM ending, and no one's been able to prove otherwise.

Bravissimo

 

[Jax]

She's a chav. Anyone who's actually from Britain would tell you that. But then, that wasn't what I was getting at.

It won't matter Bob, Bones is set in his ways he isn't going to change. He's taking Rose as a chav on the basis that she's working class and don't talk proper. She doesn't dress like a chav or act like a chav in any appreciable way; where's the bling, where's the really dubious fashion sense?

Anyone from Britian really I must check my passport because I know no one who would call her a chav. Even Chavs themselves wouldn't call her a Chav but thats mainly because there still trapped at the caveman level of language

Anyone who says Rose is a chav is just a Daily Mail narrow minded reader who votes Tory and believes the good old times were the old testament era from The Bible. No grasp on reality basically

 

[Captain Shaw]

Have to say because someone lives in a council house/flat does not mean they are a chav.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

At no point does Rose wear tracksuit bottoms, nor does she adorn herself in the ultimate chav wear, burberry.

I assure any doubters, I hail from Newport. I know exactly what a chav is. Rose isn't one.

Nor is she anything to do with Torchwood.

 

[Jax]

I maintain it's a flawed plot with a DEM ending, and no one's been able to prove otherwise.

Your still to prove your point so I go with the classic school yard ruling of theres more of us than you

oh and I saw this in TNZ...

Rose is not that.

 

[Bones2]

Trusty Wikipedia defines deus ex machina as "a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object".

And there was no sudden or unexpected intervention in the form of some new character, ability, or object. Throughout the miniseries, the fact that the children formed a link to the 4-5-6 was established, as was the fact that the British government had been studying it. It was established earlier in the miniseries that the mental link could be used to kill a man; that such a "killing signal" could be used against the 4-5-6 is a perfectly logical extrapolation from that.
That's not deus ex machina. That's Chekov's Gun.

That the silly signal could be turned on the 456 to destroy it with some typical twiddling of machinery and some manufactured tragedy of killing a child we'd not heard of before at the end is as much of a DEM as anything. It's been a while since I've seen it (in between POTD and WOM, so could be about a year now), so I'm pretty sketchy on the facts, but as I recall on the last day some old sod who was there back when the 456 took the ten kids last time is asked by Jack if the signal could be used, says no, then goes "well maybe...", then the ending. It's hardly a logical extrapolation from existing established story elements, and the 456 would be bloody stupid to leave an obvious (as it would be from their point of view) weakness like that wide open.

That's Chekhov's Gun by the way, not Chekov's. I didn't recall that the signal could kill a man being mentioned, but even so, the idea that it could magically be turned back on the 456 is outright daft. A magical solution that makes no sense but solves everything that's rolled out at the end is a deus ex machina.

Also, I've not seen anyone reply to the big flaw in the main plot; that the 456 use the children as drugs. As if there's a chemical in children but not in adults, and that they can't synthesize it so rock up at earth and bother us for kids. That's rubbish.

No more responses from anyone as to the quality of CoE's resolution? Or did I win the argument

I think the fact that you're trying to "win" the argument instead of convince other people is a bit of a reason not to bother arguing. I think there was a decent amount of setup and pretty significant consequences. As far as solutions go, I found it pretty powerful and satisfying at the same time.

It's true that people like different things, and I'm not arguing against people liking what they do. Trek V is probably my favourite of the original crew films, so I know what it's like to be a big fan of something that's not that popular or often has people claiming plot holes. But issues such as whether the ending is a DEM or whether the plot makes sense aren't subjective; it's either true or it's not. Whenever criticism of RTD comes up, even those who acknowledge his series finales are absurd and more about spectacle and making the audience pull out the crying towel than telling any sort of logical satisfying story tend to point out his two supposed big achievements: Midnight and Children of Earth. I can hardly recall Midnight and won't get around to rewatching it for some time, but the idea that CoE is a work of unquestionable genius certainly doesn't hold for me. Where better to discuss that than in a thread called "Torchwood Sucks"?

I also hope you'll note I don't try and be disrespectful or belittling while arguing my opinions on TV shows, and don't make it personal. Which can't be said of everyone else. Mr Mod Guv Sir .

She's a chav. Anyone who's actually from Britain would tell you that. But then, that wasn't what I was getting at.

I wouldn't say she's a chav. She didn't act at all like a chav, for one thing she worked and didn't hang around on street corners getting pissed and intimidating people.

There's many levels of chavness though. She might not be Burberried and blinged up while prattling on about shit-hop being "wicked yeah blud innit", but she is a bit chavvy. Where's Dimesdan got to? Rose Tyler being a chav used to be the one thing we agreed on.

It won't matter Bob, Bones is set in his ways he isn't going to change.[...]

Because I think Rose is a chav I'm some sort of stick in the mud? I'm not an upper class public school boy; I come from a fairly grotty town, and know chavs when I see them. Of course, when I was much younger we used to call them townies.

No one's effectively countered them, so it is as simple as that in a sense.

I maintain it's a flawed plot with a DEM ending, and no one's been able to prove otherwise.

Bravissimo

Thanks.

Anyone who says Rose is a chav is just a Daily Mail narrow minded reader who votes Tory and believes the good old times were the old testament era from The Bible. No grasp on reality basically

Who's rolling out the stereotypes now?

to you.

I maintain it's a flawed plot with a DEM ending, and no one's been able to prove otherwise.

Your still to prove your point so I go with the classic school yard ruling of theres more of us than you

Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. And there are other places on the net where if you turned up and said CoE was a terrific piece of television, you'd be in the minority.

 

[Sci]

Trusty Wikipedia defines deus ex machina as "a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object".

And there was no sudden or unexpected intervention in the form of some new character, ability, or object. Throughout the miniseries, the fact that the children formed a link to the 4-5-6 was established, as was the fact that the British government had been studying it. It was established earlier in the miniseries that the mental link could be used to kill a man; that such a "killing signal" could be used against the 4-5-6 is a perfectly logical extrapolation from that.
That's not deus ex machina. That's Chekov's Gun.

That the silly signal could be turned on the 456 to destroy it with some typical twiddling of machinery and some manufactured tragedy of killing a child we'd not heard of before at the end is as much of a DEM as anything.

No, it's not. Again, it's a fundamental part of the definition of a deus ex machina that there is no cost to the protagonist -- the solution just happens, as if by magic, with no cost or effort on the hero's part.

A prime example of a deus ex machina would be the TARDIS transforming Blon Fel Fotch Pasameer Day Slitheen into an egg to re-live her life-cycle. This solution to the conflict facing the Doctor -- deliver her to Raxicoricalfalipatorian authorities to be executed or let her go free? -- arrived suddenly, with no effort on the Doctor's part and not cost to him. It was pure deus ex machina.

By contrast, the solution to the 4-5-6 crisis did not arrive suddenly -- it was foreshadowed heavily, it was arrived at through the characters' efforts, and it incurred a severe cost in the form of the death of Steven.

Now, if you found it unsatisfying or forced or manufactured, that's legitimate. I did not, but whatever. But it still does not fit the definition of a deus ex machina.

Stop using deus ex machina as a generic term for "ending I didn't like." That's not what the term means. It has a meaning and you are claiming that something that does not possess its traits somehow constitute an example of one. It's a blatantly inaccurate and ignorant argument to make.

It's been a while since I've seen it (in between POTD and WOM, so could be about a year now), so I'm pretty sketchy on the facts,

Yes, you're sketchy on a lot of facts, including the definition of a deus ex machina.

but as I recall on the last day some old sod who was there back when the 456 took the ten kids last time is asked by Jack if the signal could be used, says no, then goes "well maybe...", then the ending.

You're conflating the roles of Clement McDonald and Mister Dekker.

It's hardly a logical extrapolation from existing established story elements,

In your view. In others', not so much. And even if you do not think it is a well-executed example of Chekhov's Gun, it is still an example of Chekhov's Gun, not a deus ex machina. The relative success or failure of an execution of one literary trope does not equal its transformation into an entirely different literary trope.

I also hope you'll note I don't try and be disrespectful or belittling while arguing my opinions on TV shows,

No, you just use prejudiced, bigoted, pejorative slurs against members of the working class and people from the North of England.

 

[Jax]

No, you just use prejudiced, bigoted, pejorative slurs against members of the working class and people from the North of England.

This...

He doesn't see it but this here is true about so many of your comments Bones, your grasp on reality at times is nothing short of offensive and I say this not coming from the North but East Midlands.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

That the silly signal could be turned on the 456 to destroy it with some typical twiddling of machinery and some manufactured tragedy of killing a child we'd not heard of before at the end is as much of a DEM as anything.

The way you keep expressing it sounds much more like an Ass Pull to me.

 

[Bones2]

No, it's not. Again, it's a fundamental part of the definition of a deus ex machina that there is no cost to the protagonist -

No it isn't.

- the solution just happens, as if by magic, with no cost or effort on the hero's part.

Not necessarily. If I wrote a story about some alien menace turning up and threatening a planet, but then right at the end someone came up to the hero and said "I've just remembered; if you stab this baby, the alien menace's god of baby-stabbing will magically appear and make them fuck off", that would be a DEM. And it still would be one if the alien menace had a photo of a painting of their god of baby-stabbing on their coffee table.

A prime example of a deus ex machina would be the TARDIS transforming Blon Fel Fotch Pasameer Day Slitheen into an egg to re-live her life-cycle. This solution to the conflict facing the Doctor -- deliver her to Raxicoricalfalipatorian authorities to be executed or let her go free? -- arrived suddenly, with no effort on the Doctor's part and not cost to him. It was pure deus ex machina.

I'm glad you agree what complete rubbish Boom Town was.

By contrast, the solution to the 4-5-6 crisis did not arrive suddenly -- it was foreshadowed heavily, it was arrived at through the characters' efforts, and it incurred a severe cost in the form of the death of Steven.

You say it was foreshadowed heavily. Whichever old sod it was came up right at the end and mentioned there's no way to use the signal, but helpfully changed his mind. Not a single person could have deduced that as the solution because it's nonsense that came out of nowhere and magically solved everything.

Now, if you found it unsatisfying or forced or manufactured, that's legitimate. I did not, but whatever. But it still does not fit the definition of a deus ex machina.

Yes it does. I detailed in my previous post (I think it was, could have been the one before that) how it matches the definition I copied and pasted from Wikipedia like a lazy prole, and how the accusation of it not fitting the classical definition of a deus ex machina has been used as a defense against the accusation in RTD's work by apologists for ages.

How about the endings of The Parting of the Ways and Last of the Time Lords? Do you think they were or weren't DEMs?

Stop using deus ex machina as a generic term for "ending I didn't like."

I never started.

That's not what the term means. It has a meaning and you are claiming that something that does not possess its traits somehow constitute an example of one. It's a blatantly inaccurate and ignorant argument to make.

No.

Yes, you're sketchy on a lot of facts, including the definition of a deus ex machina.

Oh dear. Can't you be nice? I didn't start calling you keptin for leaving the h out of Chekhov.

You're conflating the roles of Clement McDonald and Mister Dekker.

Oh. Damn.

It's hardly a logical extrapolation from existing established story elements,

In your view. In others', not so much. And even if you do not think it is a well-executed example of Chekhov's Gun, it is still an example of Chekhov's Gun, not a deus ex machina.

No. There was no hint that the signal could magically kill the 456. Nor does it make sense.

The relative success or failure of an execution of one literary trope does not equal its transformation into an entirely different literary trope.

Don't try to patronise me.

I also hope you'll note I don't try and be disrespectful or belittling while arguing my opinions on TV shows,

No, you just use prejudiced, bigoted, pejorative slurs against members of the working class and people from the North of England.

Don't be ridiculous. What a shame you can't manage a good natured discussion about a TV show and resort to character attacks on the person with the opposing viewpoint.

This...

He doesn't see it but this here is true about so many of your comments Bones, your grasp on reality at times is nothing short of offensive and I say this not coming from the North but East Midlands.

You shouldn't use your personal dislike of me to justify even to yourself such complete lies.

That the silly signal could be turned on the 456 to destroy it with some typical twiddling of machinery and some manufactured tragedy of killing a child we'd not heard of before at the end is as much of a DEM as anything.

The way you keep expressing it sounds much more like an Ass Pull to me.

Yeah, it was certainly that. I'm not sure whether the ancient Greeks had a term for that mind, but that and a deus ex machina aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

There was the hint the signal could kill - it was used to kill Clem. There wasn't anything that screamed out it could work the other way though. Additionally, did the signal kill the 456 or just drive them away? I can't remember exactly.

I think it is a very large leap - possibly even revisionist - to say the resolution was foreshadowed as clearly as some purport it was. I would wager very few people predicted it while watching or even rewatching. It was not clearly set-up.

It's still not a DEM though. Nor is LOTTL really, since you ask, Bones. Both have the elements there to suggest or foreshadow the resolution, but neither are at all explicit or obvious. I wouldn't call either magical or nonsense, but I wouldn't call either of them brilliant storytelling either.

POTW... well I've always thought that was bullshit. It was entertaining but it came out of sodding nowhere. The dubious set-up argued for that makes LOTTL and COE look like [insert well-plotted story here].

 

[Captain Pike]

The end was definitely the weakest link, but then that is true with a lot of stories..

 

[Starkers]

The end was definitely the weakest link, but then that is true with a lot of stories..

This.

Most stories that are any good are so good because they';re set up so well. The ending of CoE left me a little dissapointed, but its hard to come up with a better ending, and personally I found it way less annoying than most of RTD's Who endings.

Frankly I don't think Moffat is that much better when it comes to resolutions, he's just a better writer and so is better able to hide the mirrors. RTD on the other hand doesn't care if you see them so long as you enjoyed the ride.

 

[Australis]

The big problem is that there was no serious resistance. Whoniverse Earth has several groups with big honkin' space guns that could have blasted the 456 to kingdom come, but there wasn't even an attempt made. Everyone just capitulated.

IIRC, the ships couldn't be detected, ergo, no matter how big the gun, it has no point, no point at all..