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Too many dystopias - the world needs utopian Star Trek

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You know, I think there's something of a false dichotomy here. I like to think there's a sane middle ground between "utopian" and nuBSG-style bleakness. STAR TREK doesn't have to be one or another.

There's a middle ground between utopia and dystopia. It can be a future where things are better than today, but still far from perfect.
 
Having the Federation be utopian and.. "we do things to better ourselves"... whilst the conflict comes form an external source would be a cop-out. Inner demons don't come from an external source.

The last thing I want to see is Federation people flying through the galaxy and telling everyone else that they need to be more wonderful like us. Yawn.

A compromise could be achieved but I definitely think the Federation and Starfleet need to exist in a more realistic setting.

We can show a world where modern social problems have been overcome and still have interpersonal conflict. Just another show about cynical power hungry people murdering each other wouldn't inspire anyone the way Star Trek has.

One could also argue that one of the reason TNG stood out is that they couldn't rely on the same old formulas of quirk driven conflict that most shows do.

Let's not confuse realism and cynicism. Human nature is too complex and multifaceted to boil down to 'We're just all inherently assholes'.

Thats what puts me off Game of Thrones - I respect George R R Martin as a writer, and enjoy his world-building - but his thesis seems to be that history proves we are all inherently assholes - those who acknowledge it proper longer, before dying horribly - those who don't die sooner.

Whereas, like you say, human nature is more nuanced.

This article gets at what I mean:

Is George R R Martin's Moral Vision Really More Complex Than Tolkien's?

Otherwise a decent article, it is marred by a passing reference by one of the writers to a common misconception about the world of Westeros created by George R. R. Martin: that it is somehow morally superior and more complex than Middle Earth, the touchstone by which all fantasy literature gets measured.

This tired old cliche keeps popping up again and again (it gets featured in a review of the fourth Martin book, A Feast for Crows, which gets splashed prominently on that book’s cover). It’s a misconception that seems fueled by Martin’s promotion of his own work; you can see hints of it in his Rolling Stone interview here. I want to argue, in the end, that comparing the two works to each other in terms of moral outlook is pretty futile, given the key differences between them. But first, some rejoinders.

Rejoinder One: If you think Tolkien’s moral view is simplistic, then you either have not read the books or you have a very low level of reading comprehension.

For whatever reason there is a pervading misconception of Lord of the Rings as only an epic clash between good and evil, with those lines clearly delineated. Perhaps, as my friend Nik suggested to me, this is due to most people’s exposure to the story coming from the film versions which, whatever their virtues, do a poor job capturing the complexity of Tolkien’s world. Perhaps people like to pretend they’ve read the books and have only skimmed the surface (I think Tolkien would have some sympathy for Jay-Z, who in the classic “Renegade” dropped this line – edited by me for content, and to run in the time allotted – which seems appropriate in this context: “[Dumb people] say that I’m foolish I only talk about jewels/ Do you fools listen to music or do you just skim through it?”). Or perhaps the people reading the books just don’t have any idea how themes and character development work in books.

Whatever the reason, Lord of the Rings is viewed as a work whose primary moral emphasis is this: there are good guys and bad guys, and the good guys need to stand up so things will turn out hunky-dory. That’s about as accurate a summation as a presidential bio that reads “William Jefferson Clinton, 42 President of the United States. Known for his abilities on the saxophone.”

At the heart of Tolkien’s work is not some primitive dividing line, but the chilling truth that within each person there lies great potential for both good and evil. Yes, it presupposes that good and evil are real things, distinct from each other. For some people I suppose, that’s enough to disqualify it as a serious work, but those people are primarily 8th Grade layabouts who sit in the back of the class raising their hands to say “But wasn’t Hitler just doing what he thought was right?” Tolkien’s treatment of good and evil is in fact nuanced. To take the most obvious of roughly one million examples, Gollum appears as a character whose good attributes have, over time, succumbed to the tendencies of greed within his heart. Nevertheless, he remains until the last moment a character for whom change is possible, and Gandalf insists that everyone treat him with pity and kindness. Even the big bads, like Saruman and Sauron, once possessed goodness within themselves; only lifetimes of corruption have distanced them from others. Likewise the good characters are not impossibly good – Boromir of course being an example.

In the same vein, the story (as it is actually told) does not have some smarmy happy ending where all gets put right. The actual ending is downright chilling: in “The Scouring of the Shire” (a chapter left unadapted in the movies), the hobbits must fight for their land, only to discover that not all can be put right again. Frodo himself learns this lesson in the most painful ways: he has been marked by evil, and will carry that with him for the rest of his days. Again and again the emphasis is not on impossible goodness wiping out indescribable evil, but of ordinary folk bearing the burdens of responsibility and choosing the good even when it seems futile.

Rejoinder Two: People mistake brutality for complexity.

One of the reasons people are so quick to label Martin’s world a morally complex one is because he unflinchingly tackles a number of “adult” topics. Savage violence! Rape! Consensual-but-still-disturbing sex! Martin has certainly shown a fascination with the more grisly aspects of human interaction, but depiction does not equal examination, and Martin for the most part shies away from ramifications of the events he puts on the page. It’s also, I think, a poor mark of where we are as a people that we measure maturity simply by graphic content. We certainly do not want to expose young children to people getting flayed alive, but just because a middle aged man can handle and digest that sort of content, does it mean that he is better off for it? True “maturity” in content comes with temperance, something about which Martin knows little. Put another way – you know who really enjoys boatloads of graphic violence and sex? Teenage boys, not exactly paragons of advanced development.

There’s also a strange “moral” logic at play in Martin’s universe. Because he is so obsessed with power dynamics, Martin lays out the world of Westeros a bit like a chessboard. Make the wrong move and your piece is doomed. There’s little of the spontaneity and, well, human freedom that marks actual life. Too much loyalty or sense of duty? Your days are numbered. Cunning and ruthless? You’ll live, at least till you meet a bigger, nastier fish. Martin does not even leave room for the possibility that good deeds done, even when they fail, could live on and have worth. In Westeros there is only power and weakness, life and death. The moral machinations of Martin’s world get as repetitive as his plot twists, or his use of language.

I want to stop myself here before I go too far down the rabbit hole of Martin-bashing, which is not my intent here. In fact, I have tremendous respect for his abilities as an author and especially as a world creator. What I do want to note is that, in the end, comparing his work to Tolkien’s, especially on a moral level, feels futile because of the essential differences between the two. I had a breakthrough about this mid-Twitter rant, thanks to my friend and interlocutor Tony, who brought up a quote from that Rolling Stone article which I think perfectly summarizes the divide between Martin and Tolkien (and, interestingly, how badly Martin misunderstands Tolkien). A simple quote, but profound: “What was Aragorn’s tax policy?”

That one question betrays one of Martin’s biases, a bias many of us, I think, share: if a work is not interested in political questions, it must not be complex. Martin, of course, loves politics: seen from a certain angle, his books are like the most interesting, bloodiest possible version of C-Span. But the mistake comes in when he (and others) assume that this must be the norm for a truly complex work.

The fact is that Lord of the Rings is apolitical, to a huge degree. I suspect there are several reasons for this. One has to do with Tolkien’s background as a scholar: the stories he pays tribute to in his building of Middle Earth, including Beowulf, pay little heed to the world of politics. Even set as they are in the courts of kings, these stories primarily focus on the advancement of story, especially the clearing away of monsters, so that society can thrive. It’s worth noting that Tolkien, the man who brought Beowulf back to respectability, argued in his great essay “Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics” that those who bemoaned the story’s lack of political detail completely missed the point of the tale.

The other important reason, though, is that Tolkien seems to agree with Nietzsche’s assertion in Twilight of the Idols that a fascination with politics can only come at the expense of culture. Tolkien is a cultural anthropologist par excellence, building nuance and depth into his depictions of the various races of Middle Earth. He loves the language and songs and stories and habits and beliefs that constitute each culture, and he has the wisdom to realize that fleshing out politics would only detract from these emphases. Indeed, the non-human races in Middle Earth themselves seem heavily apolitical, even quasi-anarchical. Both the elves and hobbits have societies arranged along lines of social, not political, agreement. Meanwhile he does not shy away from the implication that, for humans, political arrangement is a must (that is true also of the dwarves, who seem closer in their character to humans than the other races). That seems to be the point in the idea of one age passing away and another, the age of humans, taking its place. Gone forever is a world free of politics, where societies may concentrate on what makes life really worth living. This is part and parcel with Tolkien’s environmentalism, which privileges communion with nature at the expense of technological entanglement.

To Martin, however, this is a flaw in Tolkien’s writing, and he associates what he sees as “good leader = good people” mechanics in Tolkien (not actually accurate) with Medieval political philosophy (not even in the same neighborhood. Seriously, has he read even a scrap of Medieval political philosophy???). We tend to agree with Martin, living as we do in a society where increasingly the only bonds we have with our neighbor are imposed bonds of political structure, not natural bonds of culture. Therefore we associate politics (and its inevitable grime) with true maturity, with growing up and abandoning the things of youth. But maybe Tolkien points us to a better way, one forgotten and unwalkable by us, perhaps, but still haunting in its vision of what the world could be. That’s not immaturity or naivete – it’s true poetic vision.

It's possible GRRM is just showing what the breakdown of society really entailed in the middle ages, before showing Tyrion and Varys redeem it with good governance or something to that effect. But so far, it feels to me like the extraordinary effect that ideals had on the development of history has been ignored.
 
Dare I admit that I gave up on Tolkien about halfway through the first book, but eagerly devoured Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric of Melnibone, and Conan the Barbarian back in the day? Probably says something about my tastes and preferences. :)

I should probably take another stab at Tolkien someday . . . .
 
Compare the West Wing (lots of character-driven drama, but essentially optimistic) to House of Cards now, so nihilistic and dark. Life has enough stress and darkness already. Give me some heroes who go about doing good albeit imperfectly.

Agreed. One of the things I liked about The West Wing (and other Aaron Sorkin-written shows such as The Newsroom is the recurring theme of "We did a good thing badly". Bad stuff happens, conflict happens, but the overall tone is still aspirational. This is where TOS (and to a large extent DSN) succeeded, IMO, and where TNG and VGR did not. TNG/VGR moved past "aspirational" to Earth/UFP/humans=utopia/good, everything else=misguided/bad.
 
"Utopian" is the wrong word.

"Hopeful" is the word you are looking for.

Yeah, I just went with "utopia" to quickly encapsulate the general idea (also thread titles have to be a little dramatic or nobody reads them) - but what I meant is hopeful/positive/progressive.

And the main thing I contrast with is nuBSG and GoT.

Dare I admit that I gave up on Tolkien about halfway through the first book, but eagerly devoured Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric of Melnibone, and Conan the Barbarian back in the day? Probably says something about my tastes and preferences. :)

I should probably take another stab at Tolkien someday . . . .

Oooooooooooooooooooooo.....

Thats dangerous territory on a geeky forum like this ;)

Like the article says, Tolkien has layer upon layer of nuance. You will enjoy it. I see The Lord of the Rings, as basically a distillation of Anglo-Saxon wisdom, the same thing George Lucas was aiming for with American values and Star Wars. Except one is beyond reproach, and the other hasn't always been ;)
 
and great films like say 'The Martian', have no antagonist at all...

Mars itself was the antagonist. You don't need a guy twirling a mustache to be an antagonist.

A utopia is by definition, perfect. There's no war or conflict or "need."

While that might be awesome, it would also be boring as hell to watch. If you want to have any sort of suspense, it would be because of something non-utopian.

ETA:

Ah, yes. "Hopeful" would be a much better way to describe what you're shooting for. You can be hopeful and dystopian at the same time though. It all depends on how your write the ending.
 
And the main thing I contrast with is nuBSG a

You know ever since I found out about this

http://space1970.blogspot.ca/2012/02/buck-rogers-lost-tv-series.html

I find people contrasting Star Trek with NuBSG kind of ironic becuase from the sounds of that article you would think The Original Series was the Battlestar Galactica reboot of the 60s and 70s.

Specifically

Originally, the NBC Buck Rogers show was going to be much more in the Star Trek vein, with more serious science fiction adventures and strongly character-driven stories....

Apparently, someone, either at the studio or the network, decided that they wanted something lighter...
 
Dare I admit that I gave up on Tolkien about halfway through the first book, but eagerly devoured Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric of Melnibone, and Conan the Barbarian back in the day? Probably says something about my tastes and preferences. :)

I should probably take another stab at Tolkien someday . . . .
No, you were right: it's insanely boring, self-indulgent, and filled with faux-academia, and most nerds/geeks are afraid to admit that because of all of the really great things that have been based upon it. I appreciate Tolkien the same way I appreciate Lucas: "I'm really really grateful for all that you've started here, but honestly, you can go now." ;)
 
You know, I think there's something of a false dichotomy here. I like to think there's a sane middle ground between "utopian" and nuBSG-style bleakness. STAR TREK doesn't have to be one or another.

There's a middle ground between utopia and dystopia. It can be a future where things are better than today, but still far from perfect.

Exactly, but for some reason, people tend to focus on extremes. Everything is either all one thing, or all the other, and that's what annoys me.
 
Back then a pilot was always the same. In the end they all stood together and said "Wow. That was an adventure. I'm curious, what lays ahead of us. It'll be all fun!"
Today it's just the same, just the "fun" has turned into "horrible" or "an ordeal".
To be fair, sometimes that end scene with them standing around the captain smiling was HORRIBLY tone deaf. Like the episode where Nomad wiped Uhura's mind, but hey, we've almost got her retrained to do her job, and that's all that matters, so all good. Or after Miramanee died. Dead wife. Dead child. No big. Big smiles all around....
Star Trek Continues dealt with the Miramanee fallout in one of their fan films ("The White Iris"). It's not a great resolution to the issue, but it's better than nothing.

...it may seem like there's more angst than back in the old days, when Kirk blithely moved on to the next episode and never mentioned Edith Keeler again.
The Generations movie would have been a little more palatable to me if they'd used Edith instead of this Antonia person we never met before. I could definitely see Kirk wanting to spend time in the Nexus with Edith Keeler, considering that it would be a second chance for them.
 
Dare I admit that I gave up on Tolkien about halfway through the first book, but eagerly devoured Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric of Melnibone, and Conan the Barbarian back in the day? Probably says something about my tastes and preferences. :)

I should probably take another stab at Tolkien someday . . . .
No, you were right: it's insanely boring, self-indulgent, and filled with faux-academia, and most nerds/geeks are afraid to admit that because of all of the really great things that have been based upon it. I appreciate Tolkien the same way I appreciate Lucas: "I'm really really grateful for all that you've started here, but honestly, you can go now." ;)

When people say things like this, I can't tell whether it's their honest assessment, or whether they just aren't seeing what other people are seeing, and would change their mind completely if they did.

For me, British by citizenship, I feel Tolkien's work is for my culture, what Homer must have been for the Greeks - but it's also appreciable by all humanity, and not just the Anglosphere. He was deliberately conscious of the myths and epics of the ancient world, and constructed something half cultural epic, and also, accidentally, the first high fantasy.
 
Dare I admit that I gave up on Tolkien about halfway through the first book, but eagerly devoured Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, Elric of Melnibone, and Conan the Barbarian back in the day? Probably says something about my tastes and preferences. :)

I should probably take another stab at Tolkien someday . . . .
No, you were right: it's insanely boring, self-indulgent, and filled with faux-academia, and most nerds/geeks are afraid to admit that because of all of the really great things that have been based upon it. I appreciate Tolkien the same way I appreciate Lucas: "I'm really really grateful for all that you've started here, but honestly, you can go now." ;)

Well, to be clear, I wasn't repelled by it or anything. As I recall, I started reading "The Fellowship of the Rings" in high school, then a twenty-page term paper reared its ugly head, I put the book aside--and simply never got around to picking it up again.

I just liked sword-and-sorcery more than I liked high fantasy. Still do.
 
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When people say things like this, I can't tell whether it's their honest assessment, or whether they just aren't seeing what other people are seeing, and would change their mind completely if they did.
Don't misunderstand me - I grasp what was of value there. If not for his works, we wouldn't have had D&D, probably wouldn't have the Klingon language (since I'm imagining that Tolkien's work with the languages of the Elves laid some of the groundwork for doing that sort of thing), Terry Brooks would doubtlessly have written something very different, if he'd written at all, and that's true of tons of other authors, as well.

But the pacing! Oh, lord, the pacing. Wake me up in a hour, I'm going to try to read a little LOTR because I want to nap! And I'm far from the only person to comment on this: professional literary critics with much less skin in the game than a D&D guy like myself have decried his pacing and self-indulgent digressions for a looong time.
 
TNG and the other modern Trek characters didn't get to do the Big Laugh at the end of the shows because they usually hadn't done the Big Fight, the Big Cry, the Big Scare, or the Big Give-A-Damn in the preceding 40 minutes.

Utopias...
 
The mistaken attempt to portray Picard and his companions as evolved beings born and bred into Paradise meant that in order to deal with human situations and problems as we really experience them meant that they had to:

  1. Find a less-enlightened planet where something human and troubling was going on, and
  2. Encourage the inhabitants to Do Better. "Look at us! You can do it!" Picard would exhort.

Fuggedaboudit.

That is definitely true of almost all of Season 1 of TNG and why I believe a lot of fans don't like Season 1. The Enterprise literally travels the galaxy preaching about how morally superior they are to "less evolved" species, leading up to the season finale where Picard lectures to the frozen 90's people about how much humans have evolved over the last 300 years and how pathetic they are with obsession with accumulating things. (That episode reintroduces the Romulans and has the first mention of the Borg, and yet they totally ruined it with that clown show.)

Mercifully, they stopped doing that. The show had many episodes that showed a non-utopian future, like "The Ensigns of Command", "The Wounded", "Ensign Ro", "The Drumhead", "Chain of Command", "The Peagusus". But most of the episodes were just the mystery of the week threatening the Enterprise type, without interaction with another civilization.

I actually think the Season 4 episode "First Contact" was intentionally written as a contradiction to those earlier episodes in the first season. Rather than Picard preaching to the "less evolved" civilization, it has Picard mishandling the situation and then stating that he makes plenty of mistakes.
 
TNG and the other modern Trek characters didn't get to do the Big Laugh at the end of the shows because they usually hadn't done the Big Fight, the Big Cry, the Big Scare, or the Big Give-A-Damn in the preceding 40 minutes.

Utopias...

They did almost as bad sometimes.

Lonely Among Us"-- The Enterprise is transporting the ambassadors of two alien races who hated each other. Picard get possessed and he tried to beam off the ship or something.

Towards the end, they just managed to save Picard. Tasha comes up and tells Riker that one of the alien ambassadors may have been killed, stripped and eaten by the ambassadors of the other alien race.

Riker looks annoys and stops her, and says "couldn't this have waited a moment?!? We just got the captain back!"

Picard says with all this drama, he needs a rest, and everyone just smiles.

Or something like that if my memory is correct. It was supposed to be a cute moment, but it looks kinda bad during a rewatch.
 
Drama is conflict.

Conflict exists in dystopias.

The moment that DS9 showed us a Federation with a darker side is the moment that the Federation became more interesting to me.

A balance is possible I suppose but personally, I'd like to see some complexity and darkness.

For me, DS9 actually made the Federation less interesting - in later season, such as the episode where Ezri Dax visits her family as if on a holiday - it seemed like space had been turned from "a humanitarian federated union of exotic planets" into "I took a flight from New York to Washington State on business". Starships being blown up in huge numbers made them seem less unique - more like WW2 fighter planes. In contrast, when the "Churchill" went down in Babylon 5, it sent shivers through my body - the episode Severed Dreams is still incredible. And that was a starship that hadn't even been featured in any other episode.

JJ Trek actually gets it right by injecting an element of James Cook-ian distance back into the Federation, by making Vulcan seem genuinely a foreign port with a unique society. Enterprise also tried, especially under Manny Coto.

Do we really need to see a society that is a mirror image of the continental United States?

What I'm getting at, others have said better:

I'm fed up with the dystopian cheese you're being forcefed in today's tv etc. It has become rather annoying since all the shows turned into "bad mood" tv.

I don't need to watch Ensign Borderline cut his/her/its wrists between missions. The positive view is an essential part of Star Trek.

Complexety, yes. But I'm sick of darkness and pity drama. I'd rather have a show that focuses on Ideas with characters whose actions inspire me to dream more, to learn more, to do more and maybe to become more than I am.

Complexety, yes. But I'm sick of darkness and pity drama.

That's exactly it. And the bad example to me is Stargate Universe, which was a clone of NuBSG.

I agree to BillJ too. "positive future" doesn't exclude drama or excitement

Whenever anybody asks me how I can enjoy sad, depressing movies I say "It brings me joy to be emotionally moved in any direction".

But the positive image of the human future is a big part of what makes Star Trek unique and a big part of the reason people still obsess over it.

My general point to everyone is:

Nobody has ever argued for a Star Trek without conflict, or for perfect characters, or a perfect society, but what we are saying is that science fiction can also be an avenue for the exploration of social ideas that haven't actually happened. The Federation need not be mired in every problem of our own time - part of the enjoyment of speculative fiction, is, after all, speculation! We can imagine better systems, better worlds - "people find it easier these days to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism" indeed! What is the point of social science fiction if it doesn't explore strange social ideas and experiment? TNG was imaginative, not unrealistic! Are we content to be less imaginative than Ming Dynasty China? Even they were not all super-conservative "things have happened this way for a thousand years" - they had social fiction about the overthrow of the Mongol Yuan dynasty, and flights of fancy like Journey to the West. But we in the 21st century are content to say "people don't change, the fundamentals of civilization and economics remain the same, so let all our drama reflect this". Why bother reading sci-fi then? I can read a history book, if all I want to see is what has happened before. GRRM's books are more or less the same as reading "The Siege of Constantinople" by Roger Crowley; so why did he bother writing fantasy? (I still enjoy it, but I'm saying, it hardly takes advantage of it's genre to run with imagination).

This wasn't directed at anyone in particular - it's not a reply but a general response to the idea that dystopias like Battlestar Galactica, Stargate: Universe, Game of Thrones and so on are somehow more mature or realistic. I don't think a work such as the Lord of the Rings is less mature because Aragorn doesn't have a tax policy - or that Star Trek is less complex for saying humanity had evolved socially. Actually I view them as two of the most mature and complicated works of fiction I've ever read - and I wager they will be remembered long after flash-in-the-pan dystopias have lost people's interest. I think to argue that they are less complex misunderstands the purpose of speculative literature or drama, or to judge it by rules it never had any interest in following to begin with.
 
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