Tommy Lee Jones >> The Fugitive >> Double Jeopardy

[MonoLake82]

Just watching 'Double Jeopardy' for the first time. So, Tommy Lee Jones chasing down a falsely-accused person...again? In 1999, was he thinking, "How can the same shit happen to the same guy twice!?" LOL.

He was great in 'The Fugitive' so when 'Double Jeopardy' came around, I guess it made sense to cast him? Lazy casting? Good casting? Doesn't matter?

 

[Admiral2]

Just watching 'Double Jeopardy' for the first time. So, Tommy Lee Jones chasing down a falsely-accused person...again? In 1999, was he thinking, "How can the same shit happen to the same guy twice!?" LOL.

He was great in 'The Fugitive' so when 'Double Jeopardy' came around, I guess it made sense to cast him? Lazy casting? Good casting? Doesn't matter?

So you totally missed U.S. Marshalls, the actual sequel to the Fugitive where he actually played the same character?

His role in Double Jeopardy is not the same as Sam Gerard because the person being chased is not the same type of fugitive. Different characters, different plot, no typecasting.

 

[Captaindemotion]

In my head canon, his character from DJ is a Sam Gerard from an alternate timeline where he became a parole officer instead of a US Marshall. And his character in The Missing is an ancestor!

His character from The Hunted could also fit into this family.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I never saw the movie but saw a lot of ads for it. Maybe you can correct me, but the idea seems to be that if you are convicted of murdering someone, but there was no actual murder, they can’t try you a second time if you then murder them for real.

Which is an absurd claim about how double jeopardy works. It’s like saying if I rob a liquor store and get tried for it, I can then rob the liquor store again and can’t be tried. No, the first liquor store robbery is one crime, and the second one is a second crime. And the second murder would be a separate murder regardless of the fact that you normally can not murder the same person twice.

 

[marillion]

I never saw the movie but saw a lot of ads for it. Maybe you can correct me, but the idea seems to be that if you are convicted of murdering someone, but there was no actual murder, they can’t try you a second time if you then murder them for real.

Which is an absurd claim about how double jeopardy works. It’s like saying if I rob a liquor store and get tried for it, I can then rob the liquor store again and can’t be tried. No, the first liquor store robbery is one crime, and the second one is a second crime. And the second murder would be a separate murder regardless of the fact that you normally can not murder the same person twice.

That's not how it works. If you rob a store, are tried and found guilty and then go and rob it again, you can be tried a second time for the crime.

Double jeopardy means that if you rob a store, are tried, but then acquitted, you cannot be tried for that crime a second time, even if evidence is brought forth that proves beyond doubt that you committed the crime. Even if you admit to the crime after being acquitted, they can't try you again.

 

[Admiral2]

Exactly. Ashley Judd is convicted of murdering her husband. In the eyes of the law the death of her husband is settled, which means she can't be tried again for the exact same crime.

But the relevant point here is Tommy Lee Jones playing a Parole Officer in a movie with that plot is not typecasting.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Surely it would be open to the prosecution to apply to court to set aside or vacate the original conviction, thus allowing them to try her for what would be an entirely new charge? Yes, it would be of the murder of her husband but it would specify a different date, different location etc. I mean, I know it’s only a film and we have to suspend disbelief to some extent but I don’t think that the original conviction would be a stone tablet that came down from mount Sinai; the central concept more or less rests on that being the case.

Edit: looks like I’m not alone in thinking this: http://www.criminallawconsulting.co...pardy-gets-its-named-concept-completely-wrong

 

[Kor]

Yes, this movie has been criticized for its misinterpretation/misunderstanding of the concept.

Kor

 

[Admiral2]

Surely it would be open to the prosecution to apply to court to set aside or vacate the original conviction, thus allowing them to try her for what would be an entirely new charge? Yes, it would be of the murder of her husband but it would specify a different date, different location etc. I mean, I know it’s only a film and we have to suspend disbelief to some extent but I don’t think that the original conviction would be a stone tablet that came down from mount Sinai; the central concept more or less rests on that being the case.

Edit: looks like I’m not alone in thinking this: http://www.criminallawconsulting.co...pardy-gets-its-named-concept-completely-wrong

Of course you're right, and that article explains perfectly why. I'm trying to keep things on topic by asserting it's not a goddamn "Fugitive" movie and casting Tommy Lee Jones in it is not goddamn type casting.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Of course you're right, and that article explains perfectly why. I'm trying to keep things on topic by asserting it's not a goddamn "Fugitive" movie and casting Tommy Lee Jones in it is not goddamn type casting.

I don’t know if it’s typecasting - TLJ has a certain persona that lends itself to authority figures and this is another in that line. But there’s definitely a particular similarity in those roles where he’s hunting people.

Obviously it’s tempting to draw comparisons between any two characters played by the same actor, unless you’re talking about the sort of chameleon actor who never plays the same sort of role twice. But I think that there are some instances where you see actors play characters who are very similar to others in their resume.

For example, when The Last Boy Scout came out, in some of the interviews, producer Joel Silver said that Bruce Willis’ Joe Hallenback was like John McClane (from Die Hard, which Silver also produced) if you beat him up a bit, gave him a drink problem and put him through the wringer (which ironically was how McClean was portrayed in the Silver-free 3rd DH movie).

Sam Jackson’s character in xXx could be what Nick Fury in a superhero-free universe was like.

Bill Nighy’s character in Love Actually could absolutely be the same one he plays in Still Crazy (which explains why he’s so much better than everyone else in the former, SC is a great film!)

Edit - I actually forgot to include my favourite instance of this. Gene Hackman’s character in Enemy of the State could absolutely be his character from The Conversation 20 something years later.

 

[Silvercrest]

Surely it would be open to the prosecution to apply to court to set aside or vacate the original conviction, thus allowing them to try her for what would be an entirely new charge? Yes, it would be of the murder of her husband but it would specify a different date, different location etc. I mean, I know it’s only a film and we have to suspend disbelief to some extent but I don’t think that the original conviction would be a stone tablet that came down from mount Sinai; the central concept more or less rests on that being the case.

Edit: looks like I’m not alone in thinking this: http://www.criminallawconsulting.co...pardy-gets-its-named-concept-completely-wrong

Also, the charge may not be the same. You don't get charged with just plain "murder". It's "murder in the first degree", "murder in the second degree", and so on. Exactly what charge would be brought each time? Clearly because the first "killing" and the second were under different circumstances, it's guaranteed that the prosecution would word them differently.

I had my dad, a lawyer, explain this to me after I watched this movie and asked why the whole double-jeopardy business wouldn't work.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's not how it works. If you rob a store, are tried and found guilty and then go and rob it again, you can be tried a second time for the crime.

Double jeopardy means that if you rob a store, are tried, but then acquitted, you cannot be tried for that crime a second time, even if evidence is brought forth that proves beyond doubt that you committed the crime. Even if you admit to the crime after being acquitted, they can't try you again.

Exactly, but the premise of the movie is that she could murder him all she wants and never be tried.

 

[Admiral2]

I don’t know if it’s typecasting - TLJ has a certain persona that lends itself to authority figures and this is another in that line. But there’s definitely a particular similarity in those roles where he’s hunting people.

But that similarity is exceedingly superficial.

The Fugitive and U.S. Marshals are virtually the same movie and TLJ plays the exact same part in both: Senior Marshal Sam Gerard using a task force of marshals to hunt down a smart, wrongly convicted prisoner who escaped while being transported. By design, Gerard is almost fanatical in his efforts, looking in every "poolhouse, outhouse and doghouse" to get his man.

In Double Jeopardy, Ashley Judd didn't escape. She was paroled, and rather than an obssessive marshal with a task force TLJ plays a Corrections department functionary assigned to monitor her, and he ends up not so much "hunting her down" as trying to catch up with her before she acts on what she heard in jail...using the gun She stole from him no less.

He may not be a chameleon, but TLJ is at least capable of recognizing the part he's going to play and portray it accordingly...or, are you saying that Agent K is just Sam Gerard hunting aliens?

 

[MonoLake82]

So you totally missed U.S. Marshalls, the actual sequel to the Fugitive where he actually played the same character?

His role in Double Jeopardy is not the same as Sam Gerard because the person being chased is not the same type of fugitive. Different characters, different plot, no typecasting.

First, thanks for trying to keep this thread on my question LOL. Second, I didn't miss it. I just didn't include it because I found the similarities with DJ more interesting, mainly because it wasn't a sequel. But if you want to include it, sure.

"How does the same shit happen to the same guy thrice!?"

After watching all of DJ, I have to wonder if they didn't take a lot of 'inspiration' from 'The Fugitive'. I see several similarities in the plot. Truth be told, I watched 'The Fugitive' two days ago, then just happened to stumble about DJ and deciding to watch it, so 'The Fugitive' was fresh in my mind.

I think we're all forgetting the most important thing though: Ashley Judd was absolutely beautiful in this movie.

 

[Admiral2]

"How does the same shit happen to the same guy thrice!?"

It didn't. It happened twice, on purpose. That's my point.

After watching all of DJ, I have to wonder if they didn't take a lot of 'inspiration' from 'The Fugitive'. I see several similarities in the plot. Truth be told, I watched 'The Fugitive' two days ago, then just happened to stumble about DJ and deciding to watch it, so 'The Fugitive' was fresh in my mind.

Which is the problem. You're letting a Tommy Lee Jones mini-binge fool you into thinking you see more similarities between The Fugitive and Double Jeopardy than are actually there. There are literally only three similarities: 1. Tommy Lee Jones was in it. 2. He plays a cop. 3. He chases the protagonist. That is nowhere near enough evidence, in the face of everything else about the two films that are different, to say the creators of DJ were thinking of The Fugitive when they created it, and that is easier to see if you don't ignore U.S. Marshals.

The Fugitive was a hit mainly for two reasons; it had a built in audience (having been faithfully adapted from a popular TV series) and the protagonist was Harrison Ford. For most of the movie TLJ was playing the bad guy, and even at the end he had only graduated to "Maybe Dr. Kimble was right, but I still gotta do my job." Still, it was a hit, and movie studios are infamous for milking blood out of stones, so I can imagine this conversation taking place:

Studio Exec: "Hey, that made an assload of money! Let's do that again!

Stooge: "We can't do that. The Kimble story is resolved.

Studio Exec: "So? Just do the same plot with a new fugitive and make TLJ the star!"

The result was a copy and paste movie with the original main draw absent and the star and his gang the same ones you spent most of two hours rooting against. Obviously, it didn't do as well. You can tell because if the first Sam Gerard movie had made money, there would already be a second.

Double Jeopardy is not that movie, period. The protagonist isn't really a fugitive and it wasn't necessary for Sam Gerard to take her down, so the writers didn't include him. They included a role TLJ could play without the obsession and job dedication that were Gerard's hallmarks. Nobody wanted to make another "Fugitive," so they didn't

I think we're all forgetting the most important thing though: Ashley Judd was absolutely beautiful in this movie.

I didn't forget that at all, but that's not thread topic either.

 

[Oddish]

For most of the movie TLJ was playing the bad guy, and even at the end he had only graduated to "Maybe Dr. Kimble was right, but I still gotta do my job."

He actually realized that sooner. Right after he saw that (1) Kimble had risked exposure to save a kid's life, and (2) Kimble was investigating a prosthetic department (i.e. the one-armed man was real).

 

[Timby]

I always just thought Double Jeopardy was a result of that strange fad in the mid- and late '90s when, following the success of The Fugitive, studios decided to try to make Tommy Lee Jones into an action star, between stuff like US Marshals, Volcano, Men in Black, Batman Forever, Double Jeopardy, Space Cowboys, etc.

 

[Oddish]

And "Fire Birds", which was supposed to be Top Gun with helicopters.

 

[Admiral2]

I always just thought Double Jeopardy was a result of that strange fad in the mid- and late '90s when, following the success of The Fugitive, studios decided to try to make Tommy Lee Jones into an action star, between stuff like US Marshals, Volcano, Men in Black, Batman Forever, Double Jeopardy, Space Cowboys, etc.

Except, Double Jeopardy wasn't a starring vehicle for Jones. It was a starring vehicle for Ashley Judd. The same goes for Space Cowboys (Clint Eastwood), Batman Forever (Val Kilmer) and Fire Birds (Nicholas Cage). Of the ones that can legitimately be called star vehicles for Jones, he played roles in MIB and Volcano that were significantly different from his role in Marshals, probably by design. Nobody's trying to typecast Jones as Sam Gerard because after Marshals, nobody's wanted to.

 

[Oddish]

Well, maybe "Fire Birds" was supposed to be a star vehicle for Cage, but Jones stole it.