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The X-Men Cinematic Universe (General Discussion)

I've only very recently started catching up with comic book movies --the bulk came out when I was busy being a stay at home dad and freelancer-- and while I'm getting into the MCU all gangbusters, the X-Men movies left me cold. I stopped after the first two.

Interesting... for me, it's been the opposite, as the MCU (while quite fun) just seems to be more of the same stuff over and over without really saying anything important (though I haven't seen Civil War, so I can't comment on it yet).

X2 and DOFP are among my favorite action/adventure movies of all time.

Kor
 
I had thought there was a way to reconcile Days of Future Past's 1973 events with the Empire Magazine timeline's dates of 1975 and 1979 for Logan and Victor's recruitment into Team X and Logan abandoning that group, but in rewatching it (DoFP), I'm finding that I may have been mistaken, which is causing me to reevaluate everything I thought I'd figured out regarding the timeline of the franchise relative to what was released in Empire Magazine and conveyed in the films themselves.
 
Jubilee was identified by name by Storm in the theatrical release of X2. It's when Storm finds the kidnapped children in the pit at Stryker's base. Although, the sub-titles mistakenly call her "Julie".
 
I'm watching the "Rogue Cut" of DOFP right now, and wish this had been the version of the film that I'd gotten to see first (I also wish it had been the version of the movie released in theaters in the first place, because it would've unequivocally settled the arguments regarding Singer's faithfulness to the entirety of the franchise's pre-DoFP installments).

I also wish I'd been able to see the Extended Cut of The Wolverine first.
 
I liked the Rogue Cut, but I think Iceman's horrible screaming death to that somber music is so much effective in the original version. In the Rocgue Cut it's not there and feels like somethings missing in that moment
 
Yeah, both Extended Cuts are vastly superior movies.

I wouldn't say the Extended Cut of The Wolverine and the "Rogue Cut" of DoFP are "vastly superior" to their Theatrical counterparts (making a statement like that is a bit too hyperbolic), but I do think that they're the versions of the two films that ought to have been seen in theaters because they provide a more enriching experience overall when looked at in the context of the wider tapestry of the franchise in all of its disparate parts.
 
Count me as another viewer who never noticed Psylocke in X-Men: The Last Stand prior to this thread. In fact, even after she was mentioned, I still didn't remember her. I had to do a Google image search just to have any idea of where she was supposed to be in that film.

Going back to X-Men, I really don't think that Wolverine's time traveling could cause a person to be born at a different time. Its easier to just treat Wolverine Origins as either completely non canon or at least mostly non canon (the stuff without Deadpool, and possibly also without Gambit, could probably still be stuck in the time line fairly well, if you really wanted to keep parts of the movie).

IMO, it's easier to say that Deadpool is in a different continuity. X-Men Origins: Wolverine was clearly meant to be part of the same continuity as the other movies. They even included a brief clip from it when Professor Xavier is reading Wolverine's mind in X-Men: Days of Future Past.

Bolivar Trask, Hank McCoy, Deadpool, Psylocke, Angel, even Sabertooth were all used as background characters (or barely coherent henchmen in Sabertooths case) and then the X-Men people went "Oops, we shouldn't have done that, now we want to use them and what we did doesn't fit with what we're doing now".

My theories:

"Secretary Trask" (the government official played by Bill Duke in X-Men: The Last Stand) and "Bolivar Trask" (the industrialist played by Peter Dinklage in X-Men: Days of Future Past) are not the same person. They're 2 completely unrelated people who happen to have the same last name.

The Hank McCoy that we see on TV in the background in X2 is the same Hank McCoy that we've seen in the other movies. He's just using that mutant suppression serum that he made in X-Men: Days of Future Past. However, I suspect that the serum becomes progressively less effective with each subsequent dose. By the time of X2, it may only work for a few hours at a time. By the time of X-Men: The Last Stand, it may no longer work at all.

As for Sabertooth, my theory is that, in the movie universe, Sabertooth & Victor Creed are not the same person. After all, at no point in X-Men Origins: Wolverine is Liev Schreiber's character referred to as "Sabertooth," not even in the credits. And at no point in X-Men is Tyler Mane's character referred to as "Victor Creed," not even in the credits.

I want to take a moment to talk about what a tremendous job the franchise has done thus far in 'matching' the younger and older actors, because it really does feel like we're seeing Fassbender, Hoult, and J'Law play younger versions of Ian McKellen, Kelsey Grammar, and Rebecca Romjin(Stamos).

McAvoy, for as good as he is, just doesn't quite have the gravitas of Patrick Stewart and so the 'matching' isn't quite as seamless, but they've made things work by playing his Xavier in a way that fits with what we know of the character from the first trilogy but lets him bring his own 'flair' to the role.

I like Hoult's portrayal of Beast but I don't think he quite has the same gravitas as Kelsey Grammer's version. But then, very few actors can match Grammer in the gravitas department.

Fassbender is even more badass than McKellen, which is a helluva feat!

McAvoy definitely puts his own stamp on Professor Xavier. But, IMO, part of what makes his portrayal so interesting is when I watch him and think of Patrick Stewart in the back of my mind. I have a hard time picturing what Stewart would have been like when he was young. He seems like one of those people that was never young, like he was born as a stately, Shakespearean 40-something. But, of course, everyone was young at some point. So it's funny to see McAvoy playing Xavier as a flirtatious grad student or an angry drug addict and know that he will eventually turn into the wise Professor that we all know.

A timeline change in 1973 achieved through time travel can account for changes in the 60s or 70s if the new timeline has someone traveling to 1960 for example that the old timeline didn't have.

:wtf:...:wtf:......:wtf:............:wtf:

I suppose that's theoretically possible but it also seems extremely irresponsible from a narrative standpoint! "In addition to the time travel changes that you've already seen, there were also additional time travel incursions to earlier time periods that caused further changes that we never told you about." That's completely breaking faith with the audience for a time travel story to rely on the audience assuming additional time travel that we were never told about! There aren't enough ":rolleyes:"s & ":brickwall:"s in all of cyberspace to express myself right now!

It doesn't even require additional time travel for the "ripple effect principle" to work backwards. In the 2011 Mortal Kombat game, Raiden's transmission of a thought-projected warning to his past self creates changes that independently put a number of characters in places that they hadn't previously been in the original timeline.

How does that work? I'm assuming that all of alterations occurred after Raiden's earliest past self received the warning. Otherwise, it would seem like Mortal Kombat is working with a very different theory of time travel than X-Men: Days of Future Past. (I couldn't really say since I haven't played a Mortal Kombat game since 1996. And the plot was never really important anyway.)

There is no such thing as a "soft reboot", and I wish people would stop using the term.

There is, although there are very few examples that I can think of. To start with, I would define a "soft reboot" as a movie that is primarily new but is ambiguous enough that it can fit into a previous continuity if you squint hard enough. The 3 examples I can think of right off:
The Incredible Hulk (2008). Ignore some of the details in the flashback sequences and it actually fits surprisingly well with Hulk (2003).
Superman Returns.
It recasts most of the key roles and redesigns many of the elements but still keeps distinct references to the early Christopher Reeve movies, such as the John Williams score and using footage of Marlon Brando as Jor-El.
TMNT (2007). It's so vague that you could easily tack it onto the end of most Ninja Turtles continuities. (I like to imagine it as a sequel to the live action movies from the early 1990s.) It's so deliberately agnostic that, in the Turtles trophy room, we see the ooze canister that presumably transformed them, and the crack in the middle is strategically placed so that we can't tell whether it says "TCRI" or "TGRI."
Also, Young Sherlock Holmes could probably fit with most Victorian depictions of Sherlock Holmes that don't specifically give contradictory information about how he & Watson first met.
 
t's easier to say that Deadpool is in a different continuity.

It's not in a different continuity, though. This has been officially confirmed.

"Secretary Trask" (the government official played by Bill Duke in X-Men: The Last Stand) and "Bolivar Trask" (the industrialist played by Peter Dinklage in X-Men: Days of Future Past) are not the same person. They're 2 completely unrelated people who happen to have the same last name.

This is fairly obvious, or at least ought to be.

The Hank McCoy that we see on TV in the background in X2 is the same Hank McCoy that we've seen in the other movies. He's just using that mutant suppression serum that he made in X-Men: Days of Future Past. However, I suspect that the serum becomes progressively less effective with each subsequent dose. By the time of X2, it may only work for a few hours at a time. By the time of X-Men: The Last Stand, it may no longer work at all.

Another option is that he just stops using it.

As for Sabertooth, my theory is that, in the movie universe, Sabertooth & Victor Creed are not the same person. After all, at no point in X-Men Origins: Wolverine is Liev Schreiber's character referred to as "Sabertooth," not even in the credits. And at no point in X-Men is Tyler Mane's character referred to as "Victor Creed," not even in the credits.

Aside from a difference in actors, there's nothing in X1 that is contradictory relative to how Sabertooth is portrayed in Origins: Wolverine.

I like Hoult's portrayal of Beast but I don't think he quite has the same gravitas as Kelsey Grammer's version. But then, very few actors can match Grammer in the gravitas department.

Hmm. I can easily imagine Hoult's Beast being Grammar's Beast, so to each their own.

Fassbender is even more badass than McKellen, which is a helluva feat!

Yep.

McAvoy definitely puts his own stamp on Professor Xavier. But, IMO, part of what makes his portrayal so interesting is when I watch him and think of Patrick Stewart in the back of my mind. I have a hard time picturing what Stewart would have been like when he was young. He seems like one of those people that was never young, like he was born as a stately, Shakespearean 40-something. But, of course, everyone was young at some point. So it's funny to see McAvoy playing Xavier as a flirtatious grad student or an angry drug addict and know that he will eventually turn into the wise Professor that we all know.

Again, to each their own, because it's easy for me to believe McAvoy's Charles eventually becoming Stewart's Charles, especially with the scene we see in DoFP where they interact via Wolverine's mind.

How does that work? I'm assuming that all of alterations occurred after Raiden's earliest past self received the warning. Otherwise, it would seem like Mortal Kombat is working with a very different theory of time travel than X-Men: Days of Future Past. (I couldn't really say since I haven't played a Mortal Kombat game since 1996. And the plot was never really important anyway.)

Raiden sends a warning back in time to his younger self circa the events of the first Mortal Kombat tournament saying "He must win", which sets a bunch of new stuff in motion, including things that younger Raiden has no direct hand in changing (such as the involvement of Cyrax and Sektor, as humans, in the original tournament), so it is very much a sort of "ripple effect" where just the act of sending a warning back in time changes things even before younger Raiden acts.

There is, although there are very few examples that I can think of. To start with, I would define a "soft reboot" as a movie that is primarily new but is ambiguous enough that it can fit into a previous continuity if you squint hard enough. The 3 examples I can think of right off:
The Incredible Hulk (2008). Ignore some of the details in the flashback sequences and it actually fits surprisingly well with Hulk (2003).
Superman Returns.
It recasts most of the key roles and redesigns many of the elements but still keeps distinct references to the early Christopher Reeve movies, such as the John Williams score and using footage of Marlon Brando as Jor-El.
TMNT (2007). It's so vague that you could easily tack it onto the end of most Ninja Turtles continuities. (I like to imagine it as a sequel to the live action movies from the early 1990s.) It's so deliberately agnostic that, in the Turtles trophy room, we see the ooze canister that presumably transformed them, and the crack in the middle is strategically placed so that we can't tell whether it says "TCRI" or "TGRI."
Also, Young Sherlock Holmes could probably fit with most Victorian depictions of Sherlock Holmes that don't specifically give contradictory information about how he & Watson first met.

The definition of the term "reboot" as applied to fiction (per Wikipedia) is "to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning." (emphasis added)

If something doesn't do that, it is not a reboot. Full stop.

Therefore, the only film on your list that has not only been defined as being a reboot by individuals involved in its creation but also fits that definition is The Incredible Hulk, because Superman Returns, Star Trek '09, and the 2007 TMNT film all have stated or implied connections to pre-existing franchises based on the properties from which they're derived (Superman Returns is implicitly connected to the Christopher Reeve/Helen Slater Superman/Supergirl universe, Star Trek '09 is directly and explicitly connected to the Star Trek franchise as it existed since the '60s, and the 2007 TMNT film was explicitly declared by both TMNT co-creator Peter Laird [who was also the sole owner of the property at the time] and the individuals directly involved in making the film to be part of the same continuity as the live-action TMNT films from the '90s and [in spite of Laird's hatred for Venus De Milo] Saban's Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation).
 
I don't care what the production people say. Until I see a movie that more definitively links Deadpool with elements from the other X-Men films, I will continue to view it as a separate continuity.

Aside from a difference in actors, there's nothing in X1 that is contradictory relative to how Sabertooth is portrayed in Origins: Wolverine.

Perhaps nothing directly contradictory. But I feel like, if this Sabertooth were the same person as Wolverine's half-brother, that this would have come up in some of their scenes together.

Raiden sends a warning back in time to his younger self circa the events of the first Mortal Kombat tournament saying "He must win", which sets a bunch of new stuff in motion, including things that younger Raiden has no direct hand in changing (such as the involvement of Cyrax and Sektor, as humans, in the original tournament), so it is very much a sort of "ripple effect" where just the act of sending a warning back in time changes things even before younger Raiden acts.

That makes no sense! How does the game justify the additional changes that occur before young Raiden acts? Does it say or imply that Raiden's time travel warps the universe in unforeseen ways or something like that?

The definition of the term "reboot" as applied to fiction (per Wikipedia) is "to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning." (emphasis added)

If something doesn't do that, it is not a reboot. Full stop.

Therefore, the only film on your list that has not only been defined as being a reboot by individuals involved in its creation but also fits that definition is The Incredible Hulk, because Superman Returns, Star Trek '09, and the 2007 TMNT film all have stated or implied connections to pre-existing franchises based on the properties from which they're derived (Superman Returns is implicitly connected to the Christopher Reeve/Helen Slater Superman/Supergirl universe, Star Trek '09 is directly and explicitly connected to the Star Trek franchise as it existed since the '60s, and the 2007 TMNT film was explicitly declared by both TMNT co-creator Peter Laird [who was also the sole owner of the property at the time] and the individuals directly involved in making the film to be part of the same continuity as the live-action TMNT films from the '90s and [in spite of Laird's hatred for Venus De Milo] Saban's Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation).

I never mentioned Star Trek (2009). That's not a "soft reboot." That's a "time travel reboot." Totally different thing.
 
But I feel like, if this Sabertooth were the same person as Wolverine's half-brother, that this would have come up in some of their scenes together.

There was no reason for it to come up, and Logan wouldn't have remembered/recognized Victor anyway even if it had.

That makes no sense! How does the game justify the additional changes that occur before young Raiden acts? Does it say or imply that Raiden's time travel warps the universe in unforeseen ways or something like that?

I haven't actually played the 2011 game (it's too gratuitously gory for my tastes even though I'd been a fan of the franchise since its inception), so I can't really answer that question; all I can tell you is that, according to descriptions of the game's plot and individual character dossiers taken from places like Wikipedia and the Mortal Kombat fan wiki (hosted by Wikia), old Raiden's warning to young Raiden causes characters who didn't join the franchise until later originally to do so in the game itself.

I never mentioned Star Trek (2009). That's not a "soft reboot." That's a "time travel reboot." Totally different thing.

Star Trek '09 isn't a reboot at all, as I noted, but my bad for mistakenly thinking you'd mentioned it.

Still, TIH remains the only film that you mentioned that actually fits the definition of the term "reboot" as applied to fictional properties as defined by Wikipedia.
 
Interesting... for me, it's been the opposite, as the MCU (while quite fun) just seems to be more of the same stuff over and over without really saying anything important (though I haven't seen Civil War, so I can't comment on it yet).

X2 and DOFP are among my favorite action/adventure movies of all time.

Kor

Yeah, though I'm admittedly early in my first-time-watch of the MCU, but Iron Man blew the X-Men movies I saw out of the water. But then Iron Man 2, and Thor, hm.
I kind of stopped because I've seen a lot of people writing that X2 is one of the best, and I didn't enjoy it at all. And I'm not predisposed to watch the prequels because frankly Sirs Stewart and McEllen were much of the draw for me. I end up rooting for Magneto, but that's another story.

Maybe once I'm done with the MCU I will give it a shot again.
 
You also have to ignore the fact that Betty has never seen the Hulk before. Kind of a biggie.

Oh. I didn't remember that discrepancy. But the fact that I didn't remember it kinda proves my point. The details might not line up 100% but the 2008 movie seemed to deliberately avoid retelling the origin story because it had already been told in the 2003 movie. In that respect, it's not a "hard reboot" in the vein of The Amazing Spider-Man, Fantastic Four (2015), or Man of Steel. In some ways, it reminds me more of the relationship between the movie & TV versions of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Stargate. They don't retell the origin story from the movie but it's not exactly the same continuity since some of the details don't completely line up. You just kinda have to assume that, in the TV universe, something similar to the events of the movie happened beforehand.

There was no reason for it to come up, and Logan wouldn't have remembered/recognized Victor anyway even if it had.

Logan might not have recognized Victor but I think Victor would have recognized Logan. They had a very important relationship in X-Men Origins: Wolverine and they still seemed to have some unfinished business by the end of it. If they met again, I guarantee Victor would have brought it up.

I haven't actually played the 2011 game (it's too gratuitously gory for my tastes even though I'd been a fan of the franchise since its inception), so I can't really answer that question; all I can tell you is that, according to descriptions of the game's plot and individual character dossiers taken from places like Wikipedia and the Mortal Kombat fan wiki (hosted by Wikia), old Raiden's warning to young Raiden causes characters who didn't join the franchise until later originally to do so in the game itself.

If you're not first-hand familiar with the game, I don't know how you can use it to justify your preposterous pre-intervention ripple effect time travel theory!

Yeah, though I'm admittedly early in my first-time-watch of the MCU, but Iron Man blew the X-Men movies I saw out of the water. But then Iron Man 2, and Thor, hm.
I kind of stopped because I've seen a lot of people writing that X2 is one of the best, and I didn't enjoy it at all. And I'm not predisposed to watch the prequels because frankly Sirs Stewart and McEllen were much of the draw for me. I end up rooting for Magneto, but that's another story.

I can kinda understand. In light of the current crop of Marvel movies, the original X-Men movies can feel kinda low-key. But I heartily recommend the prequels. Michael Fassbender is super-awesome as Magneto and injects a great energy into the franchise.
 
Logan might not have recognized Victor but I think Victor would have recognized Logan. They had a very important relationship in X-Men Origins: Wolverine and they still seemed to have some unfinished business by the end of it. If they met again, I guarantee Victor would have brought it up.
1. Sabretooth in the first film DID seem to have some unspoken connection/reaction to Wolverine. Remember the scene where Magneto left Wolvie's dog tags on the table and Sabretooth picked them up and looked at them as if they had some significance to him.

2. In Origins, it is implied repeatedly that Logan is the one who keeps Victor's bestial nature in check; I have little difficulty believing that after decades on his own he could devolve into a state that was barely human and perhaps have only the vaguest recollection of his past.

3. Failing the above happening on its own, there could easily be some intervening experiment/trauma/further mutation to which Victor could have been subjected in the decades subsequent to Origins to put him in the state we saw Sabretooth in the first film. I mean, virtually anything could have happened to him in all that time.
 
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I'm going to assume that jubilee and Angel being older is down to sinister's machinations. I got nothing for Moira though.
 
Oh. I didn't remember that discrepancy. But the fact that I didn't remember it kinda proves my point.
No offense intended, but you not remembering doesn't mean it doesn't count. :)

The details might not line up 100% but the 2008 movie seemed to deliberately avoid retelling the origin story because it had already been told in the 2003 movie. In that respect, it's not a "hard reboot" in the vein of The Amazing Spider-Man, Fantastic Four (2015), or Man of Steel. In some ways, it reminds me more of the relationship between the movie & TV versions of Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Stargate. They don't retell the origin story from the movie but it's not exactly the same continuity since some of the details don't completely line up. You just kinda have to assume that, in the TV universe, something similar to the events of the movie happened beforehand.
Agreed on them "browsing" the origin due to a movie already having spent 2+ hours on it, but disagree with the rest. They don't avoid retelling the origin, they avoid doing it at length. TIH could have treated the Ang Lee version as a loose prequel, but it goes out of its way to show that the origin is completely different, as are the core relationships of some of the characters. (Not to mention Talbot dying, but being alive in the MCU. We just didn't know it until Agents of SHIELD. ;) )

Any other elements between HULK and The Incredible Hulk which are compatible are due to the fact that it's based on the same material. Bruce Banner turns into the Hulk, Betty Ross loves him, General Ross wants to catch him. There's no need to make sure that every element of the film specifically contradicts the first one. Just as much as Raimi's Spidey movies or MSJ's Daredevil, HULK is apart from the MCU.
 
When I was first watched Origins I was sure there was gonna be a part near the end in Stryker's lab when Victor like went up to Stryker and was like "I need to be stronger to beat him." And Stryker was like "I've got just the thing, I'm not sure what the side effects will be though" And say injected him with something that enchanced his mutation, made him sronger but also bulked up psychially and made him more docile. Not to be exactaly like in X1, but at least giving you the impression he would eventually end up like that. I don't really know why they didn't do something like that. Unless they were gambling leaving it to an Origins 2, but it more comes across as "oh yeah they're different, who cares"
 
I'm going to assume that jubilee and Angel being older is down to sinister's machinations. I got nothing for Moira though.

I've got a theory about her. We almost get a clue about it in her scenes in X-Men: The Last Stand. In that film, Professor Xavier uses her coma patient to illustrate a philosophical debate to his students. He talks about telepaths being able to transfer a person's consciousness from one mind to another. I'm guessing that's what happened to Moira at some point between X-Men: First Class & X-Men: The Last Stand. In an act of poetic justice/inconsolable rage, Professor Xavier transferred Moira's consciousness into a new body, probably the body of the girl that killed the old one.

Although, wouldn't it have been simpler to make Rose Byrne's CIA agent a different character? From what I've been told, Moira was never a CIA agent in the comics. And if she was going to be the same character as Olivia Williams' doctor in X-Men: The Last Stand, why didn't they just let Byrne use her real British accent? (Maybe Moira stole her accent from Dr. Carol Marcus? :devil: )
 
I've got a theory about her. We almost get a clue about it in her scenes in X-Men: The Last Stand. In that film, Professor Xavier uses her coma patient to illustrate a philosophical debate to his students. He talks about telepaths being able to transfer a person's consciousness from one mind to another. I'm guessing that's what happened to Moira at some point between X-Men: First Class & X-Men: The Last Stand. In an act of poetic justice/inconsolable rage, Professor Xavier transferred Moira's consciousness into a new body, probably the body of the girl that killed the old one.

Although, wouldn't it have been simpler to make Rose Byrne's CIA agent a different character? From what I've been told, Moira was never a CIA agent in the comics. And if she was going to be the same character as Olivia Williams' doctor in X-Men: The Last Stand, why didn't they just let Byrne use her real British accent? (Maybe Moira stole her accent from Dr. Carol Marcus? :devil: )
Nice theory! Rose's Moira had elements of Carol Danvers and Gabrielle Haller. Given that Carol is owned by the Avengers, tweaks to Gabrielle would have worked better for a lot of reasons. I suppose they felt the name was more iconic than the character. Moira was actually Moira Kinross too, married to Joe MacTaggert. Maybe Rose's Moira is Joe's mum!
 
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