The Winds of War/War & Remembrance

[sttngfan1701d]

I'll be surprised if this thread gets any replies, but....does anyone remember these?

In in the middle of a binge watch of these sprawling mini-series. In the second part ("The Final Chapter") of War & Remembrance now. I have to say....despite an overall '80s soapy feeling to the whole thing and weird casting, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

It's said that these heralded the end of the TV miniseries. I'm just 30, so I'm too young to remember the famous ones. Prior to these that I'm watching now (thanks to Netflix and Youtube), the only one I could name off the top of my head was The Thornbirds, but after watching these, I do kinda wish they were still made, even though I can see why they're not. I guess the modern equivalent we have to them would be Band of Brothers and the Pacific or perhaps British drama on Masterpiece Theatre.

Apparently, War & Remembrance cost $200m (in today's money) to produce. That's absolutely mammoth in TV terms and makes the articles written about the budgets for Game of Thrones and Marco Polo seem silly in comparison.

The production design and locations are stunning, but the casting is all over the map. I guess that if you could land Robert Mitchum at the time, you cast him regardless, even if he was about 20 years too old for the part of Pug Henry. Winds of War also had people in their late 30's/early 40's trying to pass as characters in their 20's, straining believability. But once you get past that, it's a pretty awesome story, with cool locations and a great sense of setting and the looming conflict.

War and Remembrance, of course is the longer of the two series and has the concentration camp scenes. I imagine those carried some sort of warning back in the day. They're quite graphic, unsettling, with a fair bit of nudity for network TV. I couldn't imagine trying to film things like that, let alone act it, in the actual places the events happened.

In terms of casting, Robert Mitchum reminds me of Jimmy Stewart and Humphrey Bogart...in my opinion (and I know this is an unpopular opinion) all three are mediocre actors with limited range, but I guess since they were in the Golden Age of film, they're considered "great." He doesn't make many facial expressions in either series, yet he does add some weight to the part of Pug Henry. I also keep forgetting how gorgeous Jane Seymour was back in the day...I haven't read the original novels, but I think she's a better fit for Natalie than Ali McGraw, who played her in Winds of War. She's less annoying. Victoria Tennant adds some eye candy as well; I'm glad she was in both productions. I had no idea who Jan Michael Vincent was before seeing him in WoW, and once is enough. What a bad actor that guy is!

What I don't get though is why they didn't give any of the women period hairstyles. If I had one complaint against either of the series (besides how exasperating the Jastrow storyline is), it's how 80s everything seems. We're clearly in the 30's and 40's, yet it is steeped in an 80's air.

Anyway, does anyone remember these miniseries or have any fond memories of them? They do require patience, but all in all I'm quite impressed. I couldn't imagine a broadcast network like ABC filling up their entire primetime schedule for two solid weeks for something like this these days.

 

[bbailey861]

Ì remember them indeed. Despite the sometimes `soapy`feel they had, I be lying if I said they were probably not my favourite mini-series of that time period when mini-series were common. In my case it was simply because it was all done in and around WWII. I was a sucker for anything WWII related, and frankly, still am. You said they are Netflix? I wouldn't mind watching them again.

 

[cardinal biggles]

These were before my time as well (I'm a few years older than you), but I've become a huge fan of them. I do remember there being some sort of glossy mini-program promoting War & Remembrance that came in the Sunday paper back in November '88 before the first half began airing.

As far as the casting goes, some of it was definitely hit or miss. Does Mitchum perhaps lack the versatility of a Tom Hanks or Christian Bale? Perhaps. Despite his age, he added gravitas and what A-list star power he still had to the first miniseries, and helped anchor the second amid all the cast changes. As far as those go, they're hit or miss. Gielgud was an improvement over Houseman, and Seymour was a better fit for Natalie than MacGraw. I actually prefer Jan-Michael Vincent's Byron over Hart Bochner's, but considering the substance abuse problems JMV was letting rule his life at the time, I don't blame Dan Curtis for recasting.

A shame they didn't bring back Gunter Meisner for W&R, as Berkoff's Hitler was almost a buffoon, all shouty with that stupid giggle. Meisner could be both the electrifying party leader who held a nation in thrall, yet he was also able to be incredibly menacing and scary (like in the scene where he dresses down Brauchitsch for requesting a delay on the invasion of France). Berkoff was evil and shouty, and then he only got more eviller and shoutier toward the end.

You said that you've never read the books; while the meat of the story is the same, structurally it's a bit different. Apart from the usual book-to-screen changes (passages dwelling on the backgrounds or feelings of characters get passed over or reduced to a line of on-screen dialogue), General von Roon is still a major part of the story, but Pug only encounters him once or twice during his time in Berlin rather than the friendship that's put forward in the miniseries. Instead, at certain intervals Wouk drops in a chapter from a book the fictional Roon wrote in prison on the history of the War; Victor, now retired from both the Navy and the private sector, translates the books and adds editorial counterpoints when he thinks Roon has gone off the reservation or is just off-the-wall lying. They're very long, but very very readable, and will definitely add to your enjoyment of the miniseries.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Ì remember them indeed. Despite the sometimes `soapy`feel they had, I be lying if I said they were probably not my favourite mini-series of that time period when mini-series were common. In my case it was simply because it was all done in and around WWII. I was a sucker for anything WWII related, and frankly, still am. You said they are Netflix? I wouldn't mind watching them again.

Winds of War is on Netflix; War & Remembrance is not. The latter is distributed by MPI Home Video, and the set costs a pretty penny (whereas WoW, distributed by Paramount, can usually be had new for $40 or less).

edit: Holy shit! Amazon has W&R on sale for $34.35! Snatch it up while you can!

http://www.amazon.com/War-Remembran...423833030&sr=1-1&keywords=war+and+remembrance

 

[Shawnster]

I watched these with my mother. I saw that Netflix had only one of the two, so I've not rewatched it yet because I'm in an all or nothing sort of mood with this.

The early 90s had a tv series Homefront, that could serve as a continuation of these two min-series. Homefront picks up as WWII ends and follows the GI's and their families as they try to return to civilian life.

I've also been watching Manhattan, which has a similar vibe.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

My parents video-taped these back in the day. Somewhere around 1992, I watched all of over about a week. I enjoyed it a lot.

Yes, Robert Mitchum was too old for the part, but he was also perfect for it. Mitchum was just too cool for school.

 

[N-121973]

I've read both books and I remember the two mini series. I liked them but the cast changes between the two were a little jarring though I dare say necessary due to suitability and availability of actors. As for Berkoff's hamming it up as Hitler, the only things that he needed to complete his performance was a white Persian cat to sit on his lap to stroke and an opportunity to reveal his grand scheme to Robert Mitchum.

 

[J.T.B.]

Reading the subject line I immediately hear Ernie Anderson's voice in my head. "The Winds, of War."

I watched "Winds" when it was originally on at age 13, with the whole family. It was a little too soap opera-ish for my tastes at the time. If it was a navy show, I wanted some navy fighting. Also, in my mind it was linked with ABC's other programming, like Dynsaty, which was a little on the sensationalized, borderline trashy side, which I didn't associate with historical accuracy.

I have been tempted to re-watch it recently, though, maybe I will.

I never saw "Remembrance," but IIRC it came along just before Lonesome Dove, which, as I mentioned recently in another thread, is for my money the best mini-series ever, maybe the best made-for-TV production of any kind.

Apparently, War & Remembrance cost $200m (in today's money) to produce. That's absolutely mammoth in TV terms and makes the articles written about the budgets for Game of Thrones and Marco Polo seem silly in comparison.

Wow, that's some budget. ABC broke the ground for hugely successful mini-series like Rich Man, Poor Man and Roots, so I guess it was worth it to them.

I guess that if you could land Robert Mitchum at the time, you cast him regardless, even if he was about 20 years too old for the part of Pug Henry. Winds of War also had people in their late 30's/early 40's trying to pass as characters in their 20's, straining believability.

Well, yes, but maybe closer to 10 years. Mitchum was in his mid-sixties, while the average USN captain in 1940 was early-to-mid 50s. They were not like James Kirks! It's not as bad as, say, Task Force where Gary Cooper looks like he goes from 45 year old ensign to 50 year old admiral. You just accept it, or not.

In terms of casting, Robert Mitchum reminds me of Jimmy Stewart and Humphrey Bogart...in my opinion (and I know this is an unpopular opinion) all three are mediocre actors with limited range, but I guess since they were in the Golden Age of film, they're considered "great."

Well... it's a different style of acting than what we see today, but it's still acting and in the right production they can be very good.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

A shame they didn't bring back Gunter Meisner for W&R, as Berkoff's Hitler was almost a buffoon, all shouty with that stupid giggle. Meisner could be both the electrifying party leader who held a nation in thrall, yet he was also able to be incredibly menacing and scary (like in the scene where he dresses down Brauchitsch for requesting a delay on the invasion of France). Berkoff was evil and shouty, and then he only got more eviller and shoutier toward the end.

Yeah, the portrayal of Hitler in WoW was very good indeed. It showed him as a shrewd, intelligent politician (prone to pontificating but never the hissy fits of W&R) with a boiling cauldron inside him. Only at certain times did the evil peek out, and only at certain times did he explode. I would've loved to see the same actor reprise the role in W&R, because it would have been a great performance, seeing him gradually lose himself as Germany gradually lost the war. The age of the actor seemed right, too.

All joking about Mitchum's facial expressions aside, I like how the character of Pug Henry usually just sits back and observes. He doesn't fancy himself a diplomat but he acts diplomatically, and through his eyes we see all that's unfolding in the months leading up to the invasions of Poland and France, what's going on in Russia, etc. But I do wish he was allowed more moments to be human...all too often he seems to take tragedy surprisingly well. It's his children and family that act out.

Speaking of, what the heck does everyone see in Rhoda Henry? She has an affair with Palmer Kirby (who loves telling people he's working on the A-bomb), goes back to Pug, then rejects Kirby, only to get hooked up with some slick willy Army colonel. I guess the book explains it better, and the actress playing her does a good job....but I can't see what in the world the big draw is.

I've read ahead so I know what ultimately happens to the Jastrows, but aside from the scenery of Italy, France, and Germany/Poland, that has to be the most frustrating storyline in the whole 44-hour series. Natalie should've left that doddering old professor in Italy. Jeez.

And about Jan Michael Vincent...I will concede that he does show Byron's youthful abandon pretty well in WoW. He also had a lot more to do in that series as opposed to W&R, even though I think the change in actors was better in terms of age.

I just might read the book (the first one, anyway), but I don't know about owning the DVD's. After watching WoW first on Netflix and then W&R on Youtube, I can't see myself watching them again anytime soon. The concentration camp scenes, while very important and quite rightly shown (especially since there are some people in the world who still believe it was all a hoax. I knew one such moron in college), are a bit much to stomach more than once.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I watched these with my mother. I saw that Netflix had only one of the two, so I've not rewatched it yet because I'm in an all or nothing sort of mood with this.

While only Winds of War is on Netflix, War and Remembrance is on Youtube in its entirety, if you don't mind Spanish subtitles at the bottom of the screen.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I liked the miniseries (watched both when 1st shown) but much preferred the books.

The only thing I remember about them, however, was how the author stopped his narrative during the battle of Midway to list the names of the (?) torpedo squadron members that gave their lives to turn the fortune of that battle.

Oh, and how my dad smiled when I started to talk to him about Bulldog Halsey and the other "stars" of WWII.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Speaking of, what the heck does everyone see in Rhoda Henry? She has an affair with Palmer Kirby (who loves telling people he's working on the A-bomb), goes back to Pug, then rejects Kirby, only to get hooked up with some slick willy Army colonel. I guess the book explains it better, and the actress playing her does a good job....but I can't see what in the world the big draw is.

Rhoda seems to be the character everyone (viewers and readers, anyway) loves to hate.

She starts out as this naggy, boozy ("Does your wife speak for the the U.S. Navy, Commander?" "She speaks for Piper-Heidsieck '34."), somewhat comical wife, but also pitiable... the dog-eat-dog world of Navy wives, where your social status was determined by how far up the ladder of promotion your husband had climbed, and what his assignment was compared to those of his fellow classmates at the Academy. Here Pug was, pushing 50, no command of his own, pulling these desk assignments like naval attache and various trips as FDR's eyes and ears. It's understandable how that pressure would make someone crack, not to mention the long separations and constant moving around the globe. I almost wish she had run off with Palmer Kirby; he was a good guy. Hack Peters wasn't a 'bad' guy per se, but by the end of the novel/miniseries, it's clear Rhoda has left Pug for the wrong guy.

I've read ahead so I know what ultimately happens to the Jastrows, but aside from the scenery of Italy, France, and Germany/Poland, that has to be the most frustrating storyline in the whole 44-hour series. Natalie should've left that doddering old professor in Italy. Jeez.

On a character level, it's incredibly frustrating. On a storytelling level... while Wouk went to great pains to develop fully formed characters, he's also manipulating them like chess pieces so as to try and show the full experience of World War II.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I almost wish she had run off with Palmer Kirby; he was a good guy. Hack Peters wasn't a 'bad' guy per se, but by the end of the novel/miniseries, it's clear Rhoda has left Pug for the wrong guy.

Yeah, I did like Palmer. Glad Peter Graves returned for the second miniseries, even if it was just for one episode. It was clear that Palmer really cared for her and with them, it was a timing thing more than anything else. But Colonel Peters is just...ugh. I hated the way he weaseled himself in, I guess because I've known guys like that and I've seen women fall for it.

On a character level, it's incredibly frustrating. On a storytelling level... while Wouk went to great pains to develop fully formed characters, he's also manipulating them like chess pieces so as to try and show the full experience of World War II.

Oh, I know. I get what he's doing. That's part of why it's frustrating AND painful to watch, and while it IS frustrating, it keeps you involved in the story.

I've ordered the novel (the first one) from Amazon. It's been a long while since I've read a huge, sprawling book.